Tracking Down Jefferson Quote

[shrubnose]

In 1790 the North did not have as great an economic edge over the South as it did in 1860. There is no guarantee the North would have won a war in 1790.

Who cares? certainly not me.

The slaves have been free for quite a while now and Jefferson didn't raise a finger to help make it happen.

 

[Grendel]

Thomas Jefferson was not only a flawed human being, history shows that he was a slave owner and a racist.
He had some of his slaves who escaped and were recaptured flogged and he fathered children with at least one of his female slaves, Sally Hemings, who was Jefferson's own wives half sister.

Jefferson made very little effort to free his own or other slaves.

Thomas Jefferson was not a good man.

I certainly don't see him as a person who anyone should emulate.

But, hey, if you want to hold him up as a model, get after it.




"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.

Think about it in the context of his own time. At the time, prevalent thinking was that Africans were a distinct sub-species of humans. Jefferson proposed (essentially) the idea of evolution, and that black and white people came from the same ancestors. Jefferson did think black people were less intelligent, but at the time, the only black people around were slaves who lacked education. He probably just put the cart before the horse. As far as Hemmings, that was after his wife and all his children died. He was in a severe state of depression and probably latched onto Hemmings as a life boat. She was half sisters with, and grew up in the same house as, his late wife. He probably saw his wife in her without realizing it, and actually thought he was in love with her.

Had he lived in modern times, he would have known educated African Americans, and he would have gotten treatment for depression and Hemmings would have felt free to pass on his advances if she so desired.

And he did try to list slavery as an abomination forced onto the colonies by the British Crown in the first couple of drafts of the Declaration of Independence, but the Southern states wouldn't allow it.

So, yes, flawed, but you can't judge him through the lens of modern time. He was uninformed, as all were at the time, and with respect to Hemmings, I'm sure he was sick, not malicious. Considering the circumstances, I he most probably really did think he was in love.

 

[keith]

In my opinion the words in the Declaration of Independence doomed slavery in the US.

 

[Jim Hallmark]

Thanks for the helpful comments.

I think there are plenty of sins that we are guilty of today that future generations will curse us for. Calling the Founding Fathers hypocrites is just a way of making ourselves feel good. One has to wonder: are we so superior? Slavery has hardly vanished from the earth after all.

Anyway, one book I think is very helpful when it comes to the Constitution is this one. It is a new book with a number of provocative things to say:

Everything You Know about the Constitution is Wrong: Edward James Snowden: 9781492364849: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Jim Hallmark]

BTW, I believe I found the quote I'd been looking for:

"Were not this great country already divided into states, that division must be made, that each might do for itself what concerns itself directly, and what it can so much better do than a distant authority."

It comes evidently from Jefferson's autobiography. Cheers.

 

[Jim Hallmark]

Looks like a comment of mine posted just now might have gotten lost.

I wanted to say in relation to the slavery question: everybody today considers the Founding Fathers hypocrites and rates himself superior. But a simple look around shows that we are today engaged in a hundred ways in things far worse than slavery. For one, slavery itself isn't even vanquished. You've got wage-slavery in abundance in the U.S., child labor overseas, and these are all sins about which we -- you and I -- are doing nothing. Just like the generations before the Civil War did nothing (actually they did some things, like increased manumission in the border states) about slavery.

Today we're also eating up all the world's resources and flirting with ecological collapse. Future generations will surely curse us for our sins if we screw up the food chain with mass extinctions and GMO foods and everything else. Again, these are things we are 'condoning' just like the Founding Fathers 'condoned' slavery.

We also (the United States) have the biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons on the planet, have all sorts of bio-weapons like white phosphorus, and use depleted uranium shells. Look at the kids in Vietnam with facial deformities because of Agent Orange. These are *our* sins.

The Founding Fathers outlawed use of 'cruel and unusual punishment' by the federal government. Yet we use waterboarding, have Guantanamo where we round up people for life without a trial -- when we aren't using foreign governments to torture them for information so our hands are clean.

I could continue, but you get the idea. I don't think anybody who declares the Founding Fathers hypocrites is doing anything more than making himself feel good. He is also just a parrot of the new conventional wisdom. Truth be told, some of the Founding Fathers did free their own slaves. Some didn't even have any. They did what they could for human freedom with the means they had. The question is: what are we doing?

One good book on all this that I highly recommend is here:

Everything You Know about the Constitution is Wrong: Edward James Snowden: 9781492364849: Amazon.com: Books

It is an eye-opening book on the U.S. Constitution and the federal system.

 

[Imnukingfutz]

I looked around a bit,but, didn't find it. If I have time later, I may look more.

You do know that Jefferson was one of a group of wealthy white men who owned slaves who joined together to fight Great Britain for their freedom, but after they won the Revolutionary War, did not free their slaves?

To me that is ample proof that they were all flawed human beings.

Jefferson played an important part in America's history, but I do not see him as a really good man.aaaaif he had been a really good man he would have not only freed his slaves, he would have worked a lot harder to end the practice of slavery in the USA, and of course if he had been a really good man he wouldn't have had sex with his female slaves.

He was what he was: A deeply flawed human being with a lot of ability who could have left himself a better history.




Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

The country never would have formed if they tried to make slavery illegal. Sad but true.

Here is one in the "did you know" category;
Every slave owned by Jefferson was educated. Every slave knew how to read & write. Every slave was paid a salary, given a home..not a shack but a home. Many of his slaves were given their own land.

At the time of the American Revolution, Jefferson was actively involved in legislation that he hoped would result in slavery’s abolition. In 1778, he drafted a Virginia law that prohibited the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784, he proposed an ordinance that would ban slavery in the Northwest territories. But Jefferson always maintained that the decision to emancipate slaves would have to be part of a democratic process; abolition would be stymied until slaveowners consented to free their human property together in a large-scale act of emancipation.

Thomas Jefferson and Slavery « Thomas Jefferson

You need to learn more about Jefferson, he was an extremely fascinating and complex man...a brilliant mind.

 

[shrubnose]

The country never would have formed if they tried to make slavery illegal. Sad but true.

Here is one in the "did you know" category;
Every slave owned by Jefferson was educated. Every slave knew how to read & write. Every slave was paid a salary, given a home..not a shack but a home. Many of his slaves were given their own land.

Thomas Jefferson and Slavery « Thomas Jefferson

You need to learn more about Jefferson, he was an extremely fascinating and complex man...a brilliant mind.

I know all that I need to know about Jefferson.

He was a slave owner who never freed all of his slaves, he had his slaves who tried to escape brutally whipped, he sexually abused some of his female slaves.

Jefferson was not a good man.


If you want to worship the guy, get after it, I won't be joining you.

 

[Imnukingfutz]

I know all that I need to know about Jefferson.

He was a slave owner who never freed all of his slaves, he had his slaves who tried to escape brutally whipped, he sexually abused some of his female slaves.

Jefferson was not a good man.


If you want to worship the guy, get after it, I won't be joining you.

LOL....you "know" all you need to "know" huh? Try picking up a history book sometime or read some of his many writings on the issue....but the facts would contradict what you already need to "know".

 

[shrubnose]

LOL....you "know" all you need to "know" huh?

Try picking up a history book sometime or read some of his many writings on the issue....but the facts would contradict what you already need to "know"

.

The facts are that in the U. S. Revolutionary War, Jefferson and some other White men fought for freedom for themselves but few of them gave that freedom to the Black Africans that they owned.

Most Africans in the USA remained slaves until they were freed by the U. S. Civil War.


As I said, Thomas Jefferson was not a good man.

But if you want to worship him, get after it, won't cost me a nickel.

 

[Imnukingfutz]

The facts are that in the U. S. Revolutionary War, Jefferson and some other White men fought for freedom for themselves but few of them gave that freedom to the Black Africans that they owned.

Most Africans in the USA remained slaves until they were freed by the U. S. Civil War.


As I said, Thomas Jefferson was not a good man.

But if you want to worship him, get after it, won't cost me a nickel.

So by your logic, every single southerner and some northerner arent good men before the Civil War because they had slaves.

Yea, nice talking to ya, thank you for sharing....NEXT.

 

[keith]

For people really interested in the subject of slavery and our founding fathers I suggest this book:

Death or Liberty: African Americans and Revolutionary America: Douglas R. Egerton: 9780199782253: Amazon.com: Books

Just finished reading it, learned a lot.

 

[shrubnose]

So by your logic, every single southerner and some northerner arent good men before the Civil War because they had slaves

.

Yea, nice talking to ya, thank you for sharing....NEXT.

I don't see anyone who keeps or ever kept slaves as a good person. Slavery is evil.

If you want to see some slave owners as good people that's your business.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on that issue, because my opinion is not going to change.