Toxic Masculinity

[Henrin]

And it's also just as ignorant to claim that most of the guys today are "sissy boys", when that clearly isn't the case.

There is a considerably larger amount of men that are sissy boys than there was in the 1990's or when I came out of high school in 2001. The boys that are your age are pretty commonly no where near as masculine as their fathers or people my age. :shrug:

 

[Henrin]

That's the stereotype, yes. It was still a very common trope that the average husband was a thoughtless, demanding sort of creature who regards his wife with annoyed superiority and expects a sandwich and a beer while she runs around making sure everything doesn't fall apart, right up to the start of the 21st century. Some of the most popular sitcoms of the time ran around that idea, and they were popular because people related.

Again, in a country of 350 million, tons of exceptions exist either by their nature or by their upbringing. But clearly, what with the sheer commonality of that trope, the constant elucidation of it by women at the time, and the consequent divorce boom of the 90's, it's not based on nothing, is it.

Having feelings is not "being a sissy." It's being a human being.

Did you even know any older men? Most of them are push overs that allow their wife to do whatever they want. Even men that are in their eighties today don't fit the profile you put out.

 

[Gathomas88]

Did you even know any older men? Most of them are push overs that allow their wife do whatever they wanted. Even men that are in their eighties today don't fit that profile.

Her problem with them is that they weren't far-Left feminists, living "alternative" lifestyles. Basically as a matter of principle, Smoke has an extreme dislike of the nuclear family model and everything it represents. She categorically dismisses the whole thing as being "boorish" as such. She also likes to heavily imply that anyone living under that system must be "oppressed," or in some sense "brainwashed," but she'll back off of the claim if you push her on it.

Like I said, she's made it rather abundantly clear over the years that she's pretty damn picky about this kind of thing.

 

[TheGoverness]

There is a considerably larger amount of men that are sissy boys than there was in the 1990's or when I came out of high school in 2001.

The boys that are your age are pretty commonly no where near as masculine as their fathers or people my age. :shrug:

You got some statistics or data to support any of that?

And what exactly is your definition of a "sissy boy" anyways?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

There is a considerably larger amount of men that are sissy boys than there was in the 1990's or when I came out of high school in 2001. The boys that are your age are pretty commonly no where near as masculine as their fathers or people my age. :shrug:

Huh? How do you even begin to go about quantifying that?

 

[Howler63]

Someone who's significantly less full of themselves and more respectful of women, and other people in general.

You find that guy, and put him on that show...and he'll treat women ANY WAY the directors tell him to.

 

[TheGoverness]

Huh? How do you even begin to go about quantifying that?

It's a unsubstantiated claim.

You don't.

 

[Winchester]

Really? It's basically the number one reason given for the gigantic wave of divorces mostly initiated by women that we saw in older people in the 90's, as they watched their daughters have better relationships than they did.

Upbringing changes by generation. While I'm sure, in a country of 350 million, there are a huge number of exceptions, it is beyond debate that the older a woman is, the more likely she was to be raised to be stereotypically submissive to the stereotypical boorish man. Obviously stereotypes are not strictly real in reality, but that doesn't stop people from trying to live up to them.

Are you trying to tell me sexist stereotypes were not more common in the mid-20th century than they are now? I'd like to see an ad company in 2016 try to get away with a commercial where a husband is physically "disciplining" his wife for not having dinner on the table, the way they could and did back then...

In the '90s? The divorce rate skyrocketed long before that (my parents generation who are in their 70's started it), you're a couple of decades late. You might have a case with the generational thing if you go 70 up and even then I'd argue it really is more of an upbringing thing. Women in their 50's were raised by the women who started the feminist movement. Also a lot of those people in their 70's have really moderated their views.

And of course things were more sexist in the mid 20th century, but most of those who were adults then are dead now.

 

[Henrin]

Her problem with them is that they weren't far-Left feminists, living "alternative" lifestyles. Basically as a matter of principle, Smoke has a extreme dislike of the nuclear family model and everything it represents, so she categorically dismisses the whole thing as "boorish." She also likes to heavily imply that anyone living under that system must be "oppressed," or in some sense "brainwashed," but she'll back off of the claim if you push her on it.

Like I said, she's made it rather abundantly clear over the years that she's pretty damn picky about this kind of thing.

She's taking that get me a sandwich bit straight out of feminist propaganda. Most men didn't order their wife around, didn't demand she do anything, and didn't consider themselves superior. Now, was their some dickheads? Well, yeah, but on average the claim is crap. I would actually like to see some evidence that the divorce rates in the 90's largely happened because husbands ordering their wife around. I can bet you that the majority of the husbands never told their wife to do squat.

 

[Henrin]

The reason you belittle masculinity of others is because your insecure about your own. What other reasons are there?

Maybe because I consider him to a be a pansy. :shrug: Why does it have to relate back to me?

 

[Henrin]

No, what makes you ask?

This:

I don't feel the need to belittle or emasculate people whom I don't like. I'm not in competition with them for women.

 

[TheGoverness]

Maybe because I consider him to a be a pansy. :shrug: Why does it have to relate back to me?

Because of the Six Degrees of Henrin.
It all just circles back to you, buddy! [emoji1]

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Did you even know any older men? Most of them are push overs that allow their wife to do whatever they want. Even men that are in their eighties today don't fit the profile you put out.

Lots. One of the best I knew still went through a lot of changing to become that way, and never totally shook some of the issues he had with expressing himself. But we all got **** like that.

 

[MrWonka]

You find that guy, and put him on that show...and he'll treat women ANY WAY the directors tell him to.

First, that's not really the question here. Men like the guy above do exist, and women seem to generally think they are horrible people.

Second, it's more likely that the guys exist and the producers find them vs taking a normal guy and telling him to act that way.

 

[Howler63]

First, that's not really the question here. Men like the guy above do exist, and women seem to generally think they are horrible people.

Second, it's more likely that the guys exist and the producers find them vs taking a normal guy and telling him to act that way.

On the other hand, he could be the nicest guy on the planet. TV isn't exactly the paragon of truthfulness.

 

[Winchester]

That's the stereotype, yes. It was still a very common trope that the average husband was a thoughtless, demanding sort of creature who regards his wife with annoyed superiority and expects a sandwich and a beer while she runs around making sure everything doesn't fall apart, right up to the start of the 21st century. Some of the most popular sitcoms of the time ran around that idea, and they were popular because people related.

Again, in a country of 350 million, tons of exceptions exist either by their nature or by their upbringing. But clearly, what with the sheer commonality of that trope, the constant elucidation of it by women at the time, and the consequent divorce boom of the 90's, it's not based on nothing, is it.

Having feelings is not "being a sissy." It's being a human being.

What sitcoms might you be referring to? Again the divorce boom didn't happen in the 90s.

 

[blackjack50]

Oh, yeah, there is such a thing. I see it many nights when I work. Pathological and toxic, often fueled by alcohol-infused outrage or bravado.

Alcohol...you said it all.

Well. Maybe not. Since I am going to say more lol.

I can be classified as masculine in most circles I run in. Maybe not in the hard hat and hammer group because I work in an office. But I am a hunter and a martial artist and outdoorsmen and sportsmen.

But this is my issue: being an asshole doesn't make you masculine. And being an asshole means you are more likely to have people be an asshole back. What you said was that "you deal with assholes due to people who can't handle their alcohol."

That isn't unique to men. Masculinity isn't defined by ones ability to be an asshole.

 

[blackjack50]

Well, there's certainly such a thing as being an "asshole." It's even possible to be an asshole in such a way that it explicitly stems from taking one's expression of masculinity to excessive extremes.

However, I wouldn't say that any of that is necessarily endemic of problems with the very concept of masculinity itself, in the way some more "modern" types want to claim.

You hit the nail on the head: being an asshole. And you can be an asshole a variety of ways.


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[blackjack50]

You know this thread reminds me of the people who complain passive aggressively when you disagree with them. Be it in an office setting or anywhere else. It reminds me of when I was in school. I got bullied. I was ALWAYS a target because I was passive aggressive and tried not to be confrontational.

I remember the day nobody screwed with me anymore. Another kid finally went too far and I cornered him after one of our basketball games and I told him (in short) that I'm done. If he wants to fight...it will be on my terms. I'm not going to get ganged up on by his buddies. And I will put him in the hospital. I don't care if I got too. It took being a brazen asshole to cure my problems, and coming off as a little bit of a psychopath. But it worked. I never got bullied again.

Sometimes that "toxic masculinity" is mainly a result of someone who is too weak willed to handle confrontation.


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[CLAX1911]

Maybe because I consider him to a be a pansy. :shrug: Why does it have to relate back to me?

Because you related it to you.

 

[CLAX1911]

This:

Women, or whatever you feel you are competing with them for.