Toxic Masculinity

[Gathomas88]

Okay, so he's a narcissistic super douche. That's hardly desirable, but it's not exactly something unique to men, or "masculinity," in general either. It should also be noted that he's a reality tv star, and that they tend to be explicitly selected to either superficially appeal towards, or offend, audiences in an artificially exaggerated manner. I'd hardly view him as being representative of much of anything beyond a bad stereotype as such.

In any case, as far as all this "toxic masculinity" talk is concerned, I'd say it really depends on how one defines the term. A lot of radical feminists like to throw it around as applying to everything from military service and sports participation to basically the entirety of modern culture where it does not directly conform to their own, subjective and ideologically defined, conception of how men "should" not only behave, but also think. Where that usage is concerned, I'd say the whole concept is really only another example of the kind of Orwell-esque cultural authoritarianism and thought-control which the ideological Left has been guilty of trying to impose upon popular discourse in general for years.

The above being said, however, I do think the argument could be made that the man described in the OP counts as a legitimate example of someone being "testosterone poisoned," if nothing else. The only point I'd make there is that this is a deliberate, and reactionary, state of affairs. No one gets to be this much of a "super douche" by accident. It's basically a kind of "alternative lifestyle."

After all, when an obnoxious and vocal minority goes deliberately out of its way to not only attack, demonize, and demean traditional masculinity, but prop something obnoxious, like, say, this...

... Up in its place, you really shouldn't be surprised when an equally obnoxious and vocal minority pushes back and props something like this...

...Up as a counter-point at the other extreme of the spectrum.

For every action, there is an equal, and opposite, reaction.

 

[Gathomas88]

Can you give an example of toxic femininity?

It comes in a couple of different flavors.

For example...

(Traditional - Heavily aggressive against other women, subtly so against men who fail to 'measure up')

Or...

(Alt - Heavily aggressive towards men, subtly against women who fail to 'measure up')

Take your pick.

I wouldn't say either is really any better than the man described in the OP.

 

[CLAX1911]

Truth is, men like that get women. He is a saint compared to some of the men out there that get women.

He does seem a little bit of a whiny bitch, when she seems interested in other guys. I wouldn't call him an alpha male because of that.

 

[braindrain]

Well, like I said, I don't see younger women actually dating men like that, unless they grew up in a rather backwards community or grew up in an unpleasant household. So I don't think the OP is even true, as a broad statement.

I agree a lot of people of either sex fall into that trap as well.

And when speaking about all of society, we sort of have to talk generally.

Part of the appeal of the Bachelorette will simply be schadenfreude, for people who would never deal with that kind of thing, but for some reason enjoy watching it. For others it is an ideal, yes. And as portrayed by the specific man this article talks about, I'm gonna come out and say that's just outrightly unacceptable and there shouldn't be a place for it. He's a jerk.

A man doesn't have to behave that way in order to live a traditional life. A woman doesn't have to accept that kind of behavior in order to live a traditional life. He can be a respectful and feeling human being, and still a traditionalist simultaneously. She can call out stupid behavior and be a traditionalist simultaneously.

The vision of traditionalism as a lifestyle doesn't necessarily dictate how a couple should communicate, or how they should be emotionally adjusted.

There are some plus sides to traditionalism, if you have the family structure for it and you want kids. But the early 20th century concept of men as unfeeling peacocks and women as meek is not one of them, and there's absolutely no reason it must exist alongside it. Even at the time, plenty of people broke that mold.

I'm not hatin' on the concept of traditional families, as I am so often perceived to be (though I am a bit down on the isolated unit variant, for purely practical reasons). Hell, I even stole a couple of facets of it while working on how to formulate my own extremely non-traditional family. But it doesn't need to go along with this patriarchrical concept of men being assholes.

Actually I see women dating men like that all the time. And where I am at makes very little difference. Be it North Carolina, Seattle or Okinawa. it's pretty much the same all over. Not sure where you are at but what you say has not been my experience.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Actually I see women dating men like that all the time. And where I am at makes very little difference. Be it North Carolina, Seattle or Okinawa. it's pretty much the same all over. Not sure where you are at but what you say has not been my experience.

I don't know a single woman with someone like that now. I'm 27. I'd say the last time I saw that, I was about 21, although that was more random flings they had than dating. Even then, they had better standards for actual relationships. I've lived all over. Minneapolis, Tucson, DC, London, Wellington NZ, Munich...

Don't know who you're hanging out with, but from the sounds of things, a very different sort of crowd.

Like I said, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But it tends to be specific kinds of women raised by specific kinds of people who fall into that, once you get to the under-50's who have better options if they so choose. And unfortunately, some women are still growing up being taught they have little value.

 

[calamity]

Want To See What Toxic Masculinity Looks Like? Watch 'The Bachelorette.'

So, I can agree with women who say that men like this are horrible people, but if women really believe that why don't they just stop dating them? They seem pretty easy to spot. I mean how much you want to bet this D-bag actually makes it pretty far along into the season of this show? Guys wouldn't behave this way if they didn't think it was successful. I guarantee you this **** bag has an easier time meeting women than a lot of better men. Instead of complaining about the existence of men like this just don't date them. Don't marry them, don't have their kids, and they will go away.

Is there such a thing as Toxic Femininity? Why or why not?

Yes

 

[Deuce]

I don't think either form of toxicity exists. My point is that only masculinity would be attacked in this way and the motives would never be questioned. But if the roles were reversed, the motives would be the main topic. And you've unwittingly proven my point.

No, I haven't.

If toxic femininity is rare, it will be talked about less than something common. This isn't rocket science.

Toxic masculinity does occur and examples are easy to find. The fact that you can't identify the reverse tells me it's less common.

 

[Deuce]

Okay, so he's a narcissistic super douche. That's hardly desirable, but it's not exactly something unique to men, or "masculinity," in general either. It should also be noted that he's a reality tv star, and that they tend to be explicitly selected to either superficially appeal towards, or offend, audiences in an artificially exaggerated manner. I'd hardly view him as being representative of much of anything beyond a bad stereotype as such.

In any case, as far as all this "toxic masculinity" talk is concerned, I'd say it really depends on how one defines the term. A lot of radical feminists like to throw it around as applying to everything from military service and sports participation to basically the entirety of modern culture where it does not directly conform to their own, subjective and ideologically defined, conception of how men "should" not only behave, but also think. Where that usage is concerned, I'd say the whole concept is really only another example of the kind of Orwell-esque cultural authoritarianism and thought-control which the ideological Left has been guilty of trying to impose upon popular discourse in general for years.

The above being said, however, I do think the argument could be made that the man described in the OP counts as a legitimate example of someone being "testosterone poisoned," if nothing else. The only point I'd make there is that this is a deliberate, and reactionary, state of affairs. No one gets to be this much of a "super douche" by accident. It's basically a kind of "alternative lifestyle."

After all, when an obnoxious and vocal minority goes deliberately out of its way to not only attack, demonize, and demean traditional masculinity, but prop something obnoxious, like, say, this...

... Up in its place, you really shouldn't be surprised when an equally obnoxious and vocal minority pushes back and props something like this...

...Up as a counter-point at the other extreme of the spectrum.

For every action, there is an equal, and opposite, reaction.

Other than the weird pajamas what's the problem with the first guy?

 

[Gathomas88]

Other than the weird pajamas what's the problem with the first guy?

That he's an almost comically pathetic weakling, basking in the self-indulgent "perpetual adolescence" for which effete Millennial Hipsters are so notorious, perhaps?

 

[Deuce]

That he's an almost comically pathetic weakling, basking in the self-indulgent "perpetual adolescence" for which effete Millennial Hipsters are so notorious, perhaps?

He's an MMA fighter (lightweight class) who dates a model. He posed for a stock photo and that's what was fed to you.

 

[Gathomas88]

He's an MMA fighter (lightweight class) who dates a model. He posed for a stock photo and that's what was fed to you.

Sure he is. :lamo

 

[Deuce]

Sure he is. :lamo

You've met him, I take it. Know his name, perhaps.

Or, you know, any actual fact beyond what you pictured in your head after seeing that image. Right? You actually know something about him. Right???

 

[Gathomas88]

You've met him, I take it. Know his name, perhaps.

Or, you know, any actual fact beyond what you pictured in your head after seeing that image. Right? You actually know something about him. Right???

I know he's a scrawny, stupidly dressed dork, presumably hand-tailored by a PR team to be representative of a certain subset of the Millennial population, widely known for having highly, highly Leftist political views and cultural sensibilities, as well as almost completely rejecting anything remotely resembling more conventional masculinity.

Anything else?

 

[Deuce]

I know he's a scrawny, stupidly dressed dork, presumably hand-tailored by a PR team to be representative of a certain subset of the Millennial population, widely known for having highly, highly Leftist political views and cultural sensibilities, as well as almost completely rejecting anything remotely resembling more conventional masculinity.

Anything else?

Try and count how many assumptions you've made in this post.

 

[Gathomas88]

Try and count how many assumptions you've made in this post.

None. I've accurately described the subject of the image in question, and the creators' obvious intention in portraying him in that manner.

 

[Deuce]

None. I've accurately described the subject of the image in question, and the intention behind using him in that state.

You failed.

Some people can't be helped.

 

[Gathomas88]

You failed.

Some people can't be helped.

Look in a mirror sometime.

 

[Deuce]

Look in a mirror sometime.

He's just some guy in a photo. The photo was used in regards to a campaign to get people to talk to health insurance.

Literally everything else is something you invented.

 

[Gathomas88]

He's just some guy in a photo. The photo was used in regards to a campaign to get people to talk to health insurance.

Literally everything else is something you invented.

Lie, and/or play stupid if you want. It's no concern of mine.

The fact of the matter remains, however, that we both know the character in that photo, and his overall appearance and demeanor, were deliberately selected to represent, and subsequently appeal towards, a certain, highly Left Wing, demographic. In doing so, he upholds that group's ideology, and idealized vision of "alternative" masculinity (or the lack thereof).

That's really all there is to it.

 

[Deuce]

Lie, and/or play stupid if you want. It's no concern of mine.

The fact of the matter remains, however, that we both know the character in that photo, and his overall appearance and demeanor, were deliberately selected to represent, and subsequently appeal towards, a certain, highly Left Wing, demographic. In doing so, he upholds that group's ideology, and idealized vision of "alternative" masculinity (or the lack thereof).

That's really all there is to it.

Lack thereof, eh?

:lamo

Why, because he's not holding a chicken wing and a can of beer? Congratulations. You're what this thread is about. In one goddamned photo this guy is holding a coffee cup and wearing pajamas and you've decided his whole life for him. Congrats bro. You got trolled.

 

[braindrain]

I don't know a single woman with someone like that now. I'm 27. I'd say the last time I saw that, I was about 21, although that was more random flings they had than dating. Even then, they had better standards for actual relationships. I've lived all over. Minneapolis, Tucson, DC, London, Wellington NZ, Munich...

Don't know who you're hanging out with, but from the sounds of things, a very different sort of crowd.

Like I said, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But it tends to be specific kinds of women raised by specific kinds of people who fall into that, once you get to the under-50's who have better options if they so choose. And unfortunately, some women are still growing up being taught they have little value.

Well if you don't know a single woman like that it must mean it's true. I am sorry but do you have anything to back up what you state as facts other then you own experience. Personnel anecdotes don't cut it. Because as I said mine don't reflect yours at all. And I to have lived all over.

 

[Gathomas88]

Lack thereof, eh?

Yes, "lack thereof."

Why, because he's not holding a chicken wing and a can of beer? Congratulations. You're what this thread is about. In one goddamned photo this guy is holding a coffee cup and wearing pajamas and you've decided his whole life for him. Congrats bro. You got trolled.

Lol. I'm sorry, but the fact is, bro, he's a scrawny, effeminate dork, with a stupid, self-satisfied look on his face, who deliberately chooses to dress like a toddler. The very least one can conclude from that state of affairs is that he's something of an effete, immature, man child, with some seriously questionable judgement and rather skewed priorities in life.

The other unavoidable fact of the matter is that, regardless of what the model himself may happen to be in reality, his "character" was styled in the way that image portrays in order to appeal to an (again, overwhelmingly culturally and politically Left Wing) demographic of Millennials who tend to fit that same general archetype. They also simply happen to tend to look down upon, and speak out against, the concept of "masculinity" in general, particularly in more conventional forms.

Going back to my original point here, a lot of men view those sorts of lifestyles and attitudes, and the idea that they should emulate them, as being worthy of contempt. Therefore, a certain subculture, or group of sub-cultures, has developed which deliberately takes things to the opposite extreme, of stereotyped hyper-masculinity.

This really isn't a hard concept.

 

[Gathomas88]

Well if you don't know a single woman like that it must mean it's true. I am sorry but do you have anything to back up what you state as facts other then you own experience. Personnel anecdotes don't cut it. Because as I said mine don't reflect yours at all. And I to have lived all over.

Keep in mind that, by her own admission, Smoke keeps very "specific" company, and makes a point of shutting out anyone who fails to live up to the subjective personal and ideological standards she sets both for herself and other people.

She's probably telling the truth. That fact also almost certainly doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, given that the pool she's drawing from is so inherently small and ultra-specialized.

 

[Deuce]

Yes, "lack thereof."




Lol. I'm sorry, but the fact is, bro, he's a scrawny, effeminate dork, with a stupid, self-satisfied look on his face, who deliberately chooses to dress like a toddler. The very least one can conclude from that state of affairs is that he's something of an effete, immature, man child, with some seriously questionable judgement and rather skewed priorities in life.

The other unavoidable fact of the matter is that, regardless of what the model himself may happen to be in reality, his "character" was styled in the way that image portrays, in order to appeal to an (again, overwhelmingly culturally and politically Left Wing) demographic of Millennials who tend to fit that same general archetype. They also simply happen to tend to look down upon, and speak out against, the concept of "masculinity" in general, particularly in more conventional forms.

Going back to my original point here, a lot of men view those sorts of lifestyle and attitudes, and the idea that they should emulate them, as being worthy of contempt. Therefore, a certain subculture, or group of sub-cultures, has developed which deliberately takes things to the opposite extreme, of stereotyped hyper-masculinity.

This really isn't a hard concept.

Fact.

Fact, he says.

 

[Gathomas88]

Fact.

Fact, he says.

Yes, "he" does say.