Tortured Debate....Uncle vs. Tecoyah (1 Viewer)

[tecoyah]

As this forum is unmoderated, most of Uncles stipulations for Debate have been met.



Please make your opening statement Uncle.

 

[tecoyah]

If you prefer Uncle....I can certainly form the opening statement, as it would seem you havent the time to begin this debate. I will be at work until about 6:00 pm est, if by chance you cannot put together a statement by that time, I will submit the opener....and we can proceed.

 

[Uncle]

My position in this debate is to prove that six million jews did not die in the Nazi concentration camps, by mass killings, or other wise.

I will not respond to any posts made by anyone other than tecoyah. If other members of this board want to enter into this debate, then I will walk away from it and all bets will be off. It has been accepted by tecoyah and myself that this will be a one-on-one debate. If anyone has anything they would like to add on tecoyahs behalf, I suggest they pm it to him.

I hope this to be an intelligent and informed debate and not an insult fest. If it becomes less, again, I will walk and all bets will be off.

 

[tecoyah]

My position in this debate is to prove that six million jews did not die in the Nazi concentration camps, by mass killings, or other wise.

The number of deaths is impossible to factually prove, and I can hope you understand that. That the Holocuast occured is relatively easy to prove beyond any reasonable doubt. If your intent in this debate is to use the 6,000,000 number as a means to dismiss the enormous death toll, or the data supporting this targeted execution of a people based on the fact they were Jews, I will ask you to state this before we begin, as you are asking me to prove the impossible.
That said, if indeed your argument is that the Jewish Holocaust did not occur, I can provide quite a bit of Data to destroy this assertion. Please clarify what it is I am debating, as the basis is very unclear from your single sentance opening statement.

 

[Uncle]

The six million is central to the holocaust. Further, this number that you agree is impossible to prove, is the number that is being taught to school children throughout the world; It is the number that, if questioned in several European countries, Canada and Australia, is punishable by civil and criminal law; Public television in the United States repeats this number with nearly every documentary made concerning the ''holocaust'' of jews during WWII.

You have given me the option of topics and since the 6,000,000 number is of great importance to the entirety of the holocaust, I have chosen it. Surely the courts of one of the above mentioned countries, PBS television, school text books, (or their authors), jewish historical records, or even Nazi concentration camp records have the evidence you will need to defend the allegation of 6,000,000 jews exterminated by the Nazis during WWII.

Without large numbers of jews being executed and evidence of it, then there was no ''holocaust'' of the jews. To prove the ''holocaust'' you must be able to prove the numbers.

I am going to revise my position and say that not even 3,000,000 jews died in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. This is one half of my original number and should make your position one half the challenge - and mine twice the challenge. Is this acceptable to you? If not, admit defeat and we will go into the next debate.

 

[tecoyah]

The numbers are somewhat irrelavant once a million people die....dont you think? That there was a holocaust is secure in the history of mankind, as I would hope you well know. To give you a number of dead...that you would have some chance of believing requires I use the Data of people who have spent a lifetime gathering information:

The Database

*

There are currently close to 3 million names in the Database.
*

Some 2 million, or 2/3 of the names, come from Pages of Testimony.
*

There are about 100,000 Pages with photos in the Database. This represents 5% of the Pages.
*

The remaining 1 million are gleaned from archival sources and other names computerization projects.
*

The Database contains 1,260,256 million names occurrences of people from Poland; 225,284 from Germany; 198,189 from the former USSR (1938 borders); 163,628 from Romania; 124,591 from Czechoslovakia and 100,000 from the Netherlands.
*

The top five occurrences of first names in the Database are Yaacov (110,632), Moshe (88,550), Rachel (88,260), Chana (86,527) and Sara(h) (85,083). These include name variants in both Latin and Hebrew characters.
*

The Database is a work in progress and the above figures may change as we add new names with every periodic update.

Though this is far from a complete accounting of those killed during the Holocaust....it is a start. there are many more projects to tap into should you require me to. I would rather not kill the server of this site by copying the names of those listed, and would ask that you accept these names exist, and are documented dead.
The reasoning behing a higher number used in some arenas, is twofold in my opinion. Obviously those wishing to present the horror of such a thing will use the highest number of dead they can get away with. But, we must also take into account the simple reality of such an act. Much is done behind the scenes, and likely many were killed without leaving a trail. Added to this , we have human nature and the intent to cover up such an act.....this would lead to loss of Data.
We can argue all day how many were killed, but we will not argue that there was killing on a scale worthy of the label "Holocaust"....if you cannot agree with this, you have lost this debate, as the vast majority of the world finds your thinking in this....inacurate.


hol·o·caust Audio pronunciation of "holocaust" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-kôst, hl-)
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2.
1. Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
2. A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.

 

[tecoyah]

.................any day now dear Uncle......................

 

[Uncle]

My apologizes for my delay in responding. In the future my replies will come much quicker if you will be so kind as to add links to your sources. I am still trying to locate this "Database" of which you wrote as there are several on the www and so it is impossible to determine which is your source.

No, I do not agree that numbers become irrelevant after the deaths of one million people. The numbers are just as relevant if the number is one or one hundred million. If an assertion is made by a group of people as to how many died in any given incident, then there exists a burden of proof upon said group of people to be able to show it. In a court of law if the prosecution claims that the murder of one or more people has transpired because of the actions of one or more other individuals, then the burden of proof is on the prosecutors.

And the relevancy becomes even more extreme the larger the number of victims.

Perhaps, as you say, "the vast majority of the world finds your thinking in this....inacurate". This does not make the "vast majority" right and myself wrong. As an example of this: Galileo believed and taught that the earth was not the center of the universe. He was branded a heretic and persecuted for his believes. The "vast majority" disagreed with him. In the final analysis, Galileo was right. Then there was Christopher Columbus....The "vast majority" is not always right and should not be depended on for all of the facts.

Below are two photographs of plaques taken at the most notorious of all of the German concentration camps, Auschwitz. These photographs show a significant reduction in the numbers of those who died there. The first plaque
claims that four million were "murdered" there; the second that one and one half million were "murdered" there. This alone reduces the number of dead by 2.5 million people, just in this one location. In the second or revised plaque it says that mainly jews were the victims. Lets just assume that only 50% as opposed to the majority, (as stated by the plaque) of the victims were jewish. That would mean that the original number of jews "murdered" at Auschwitz would have been two million, (one half of 4 m). The second plaque would mean then that seven hundred, fifty thousand, (750,000 = one half of 1.5 m). Subtracting 750,000 from 2,000,000 reduces the number of jews who died at Auschwitz by 1,250,000. This in turn reduces the holocaust supporters claim of six million jews "murdered" by the Germans to 4,750,000.
These are not my numbers. These are the numbers provided by the alleged jewish victims who placed these plaques at Auschwitz. So, by their own words, I have proved the point that 6 million jews were not exterminated by the Germans. However, I agreed to bring these numbers down even further - to less than 3 million. Is it possible I can bring those numbers down even below 3 million, using mostly jewish sources? Just as a bonus, I'll make that effort.

 

[tecoyah]

As stated at the onset of this debate, there is no way to validate the number of dead in the Holocaust, thus its a rather pointless debate if we focus on the number, as I indicated earlier. My intent is to get you to express the reasoning behind a need to play this numbers game. Lets just say there were whatever number of dead you decide on.
Now, there were alot of civilians killed for some reason, what do you think this reason might have been?

 

[Uncle]

As stated at the onset of this debate, there is no way to validate the number of dead in the Holocaust, thus its a rather pointless debate if we focus on the number, as I indicated earlier. My intent is to get you to express the reasoning behind a need to play this numbers game. Lets just say there were whatever number of dead you decide on.
Now, there were alot of civilians killed for some reason, what do you think this reason might have been?

To attempt to debate the entire "holocaust" without addressing the numbers would be as pointless as trying to bake bread without dough. The main ingredient of the so called ''holocaust'' is the numbers. Without the numbers, there was no "holocaust". How could this "holocaust of the jews" have happened if numbers of jews weren't killed?

Tell me, how many do you think need to die for the term "holocaust" to apply? One million? Two million? Or does it just require the intent?

I would like to clarify a couple of things concerning the plaques at Auschwitz.
1.) The first plaque which states that four million suffered and, (meaning inclusive, otherwise it would read "or") died was removed in 1990.

2.) In 1995 the new plaque was installed and is the "official" number determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. Note at the bottom of the second plaque it reads, "Auschwitz-Birkenau 1940 to 1945", meaning both camps during that time frame.

3.) Obviously these are not my numbers or numbers dreamed up by crazed Nazi's. They are in fact numbers reached by historians at the Auschwitz museum, (most of whom are jewish).

You agreed to debate me on the number of jews killed in the "holocaust" otherwise this thread would not have reached the point it has. If you have changed your mind and would like to concede that less than 3 million jews died in the "holocaust", then feel free to do so. However if you chose to stay to the conclusion of this debate I will bring the numbers far below the 3 million.

I am pressed for time right now and so will try to get back to this topic this evening. At that time I will bring the numbers down below the 3 million. Thank you for your patience.

 

[tecoyah]

To attempt to debate the entire "holocaust" without addressing the numbers would be as pointless as trying to bake bread without dough. The main ingredient of the so called ''holocaust'' is the numbers. Without the numbers, there was no "holocaust". How could this "holocaust of the jews" have happened if numbers of jews weren't killed?

Tell me, how many do you think need to die for the term "holocaust" to apply? One million? Two million? Or does it just require the intent?

I would like to clarify a couple of things concerning the plaques at Auschwitz.
1.) The first plaque which states that four million suffered and, (meaning inclusive, otherwise it would read "or") died was removed in 1990.

2.) In 1995 the new plaque was installed and is the "official" number determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. Note at the bottom of the second plaque it reads, "Auschwitz-Birkenau 1940 to 1945", meaning both camps during that time frame.

3.) Obviously these are not my numbers or numbers dreamed up by crazed Nazi's. They are in fact numbers reached by historians at the Auschwitz museum, (most of whom are jewish).

You agreed to debate me on the number of jews killed in the "holocaust" otherwise this thread would not have reached the point it has. If you have changed your mind and would like to concede that less than 3 million jews died in the "holocaust", then feel free to do so. However if you chose to stay to the conclusion of this debate I will bring the numbers far below the 3 million.

I am pressed for time right now and so will try to get back to this topic this evening. At that time I will bring the numbers down below the 3 million. Thank you for your patience.

Very well.....Though this will only delay a return to my question.

The Number of Dead at Auschwitz, actually has little bearing on the Holocaust numbers. In fact the supposed 4 million dead has never been a part of the historical calculations of the total killed. Truth be told few historians took the old Soviet Numbers seriously in the first place:

"the revised figure is actually more in tune with the estimates of credible historians than the Soviet Commission's count. If anything, it was the easing of cold war tensions that allowed reexamination of the four million total rather than the research of "revisionist historians."

In fact, it was a study begun in 1980 by Franciszek Piper, head of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz State Museum that finally displaced the Museum's four million figure. [13] Piper collected all available documentation on how many deportees arrived at Auschwitz, and subtracted from this all known transfers, releases, and escapees to arrive at his estimation. Here are his calculations:

Deportees to Auschwitz: 1,300,000
Transfers: -212,820
Released prisoners: -1,500
Escapees: -500
Liberated Prisoners: -8,000
----------
Total Dead: 1,077,180

Or about 1.1 million dead, which is not that different from Hilberg's estimate of one million dead at Auschwitz.[14] Piper concluded that this figure is a minimum estimate, as this does not account for victims not listed in the records, particularly those who were killed immediately upon arrival. After the study's completion in 1986, Piper's findings were confirmed by a panel of historians appointed by Poland's Ministry of Culture.[15] Shortly thereafter, the official death toll at the State Museum was lowered to 1.1 million.

* "Since the Auschwitz State Museum lowered its death toll to one million, the total number of Holocaust victims should be reduced by about three million."

Again, this is false. Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure. "

If you really want to waste time on something so well documented, Maybe we can debate Evolution.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-03.html

 

[tecoyah]

...................waiting...................
.................anticipating...............
................not debating..............

 

[Uncle]

My sincerest apologies. A relative was injured in an accident yesterday and I have to tend to family matters before I can continue this debate. I am not avoiding my obligations here - It is just and right that I attend to family first. Please understand. I will be back.
Thank you.

 

[tecoyah]

My sincerest apologies. A relative was injured in an accident yesterday and I have to tend to family matters before I can continue this debate. I am not avoiding my obligations here - It is just and right that I attend to family first. Please understand. I will be back.
Thank you.

I honestly hope all is well with you and yours. Please do as you should, I will destroy your argument later.

 

[tecoyah]

I honestly hope all is well with you and yours. Please do as you should, I will destroy your argument later.

It would seem ...Dear Uncle has left the building....I hereby accept his defeat.

According to his own rules of debate, it is now time for him to Leave DP permanently. Should he decide to rejoin this debate, I will happily continue until he has no doubt of his failure, but as it is.....Buh Bye.

 

[Uncle]

I am very sorry if it appears that I have given up this fight - I haven't, nor will I. My kindred has sustained an extreme head injury and is in a coma. My time away from my family is limited. Please forgive me what you may perceive to be insensitivity to this debate. Grant me two more days and win by default. That is all that I ask of you. Thank you.
Uncle

 

[tecoyah]

I am very sorry if it appears that I have given up this fight - I haven't, nor will I. My kindred has sustained an extreme head injury and is in a coma. My time away from my family is limited. Please forgive me what you may perceive to be insensitivity to this debate. Grant me two more days and win by default. That is all that I ask of you. Thank you.
Uncle

Acceptable....and understood. We hope for the best.

 

[Uncle]

I am behind the wire. If you want to call it, I will default you a win. If not this is a piece of what I have to offer:

There were approximately 2.4 million jews in all of German occupied Europe during WWII. Source: Jewish Encyclopedia

According to documentation by the International Red Cross fewer than 300,000 jews died during the entire second WW from all causes.

"Impossible Birth Rate
Indisputable evidence is also provided by the post-war world Jewish population statistics. The World Almanac of 1938 gives the number of Jews in the world as 16,588,259. But after the war, the New York Times, February 22nd, 1948 placed the number of Jews in the world at a minimum of 15,600,000 and a maximum of 18,700,000. Quite obviously, these figures make it impossible for the number of Jewish war-time casualties to be measured in anything but thousands. 15-1/2 million in 1938 minus the alleged six million leaves nine million; the New York Times figures would mean, therefore, that the world's Jews produced seven million births, almost doubling their numbers, in the space of ten years. This is patently ridiculous. "
Source: Did Six Million Really Die. (A very educational pamphlet. I highly recommend that anyone interested in the truth read it. It is available as a free download at many sites on the www).


Total deaths at Auschwitz according to the the jewish owned and operated New York Times as of March 3, 1991: 73,137. Of these 73,137 who died of all causes, 38,031 were jews. This is very interesting considering that the source is jewish and it further reduces the numbers of jewish dead, at Auschwitz, (the back bone of the 'holocaust'), to a number as small as 38,031. This is quite a reduction from the original 4 million and even from the latest 1.5 million.

 

[tecoyah]

I am behind the wire. If you want to call it, I will default you a win

Accepted....please leave this forum, as agreed upon before debate began.

 

[ptsdkid]

Accepted....please leave this forum, as agreed upon before debate began.

***I see you couldn't debate the facts as laid out by Uncle. I am not surprised you avoided debate again, and I'm certainly not surprised that you can't debate anyone, even here on your turf in the lowly basement of despair. Wow, you sure are a simpleton, and a loser to boot. Keep up the good work, sport.

 

[tecoyah]

***I see you couldn't debate the facts as laid out by Uncle. I am not surprised you avoided debate again, and I'm certainly not surprised that you can't debate anyone, even here on your turf in the lowly basement of despair. Wow, you sure are a simpleton, and a loser to boot. Keep up the good work, sport.

Funny little "Kid" that you have your own Tortured Debate thread....awaiting your input, yet you decided to play in this one....what a suprise. I well understand how limited the activity is within your warped brain, but even you should be able to grasp the sole purpose of this thread....and my intent behind its creation. Though I do enjoy a good debate, this one had little chance of becoming one (I do admit the final statement by Uncle had Merit), My purpose here was to force a white supremesist out of the Forum....and I have done so.
There are still a few here, (yourself included), but I am a patient man, and will take you all on one at a time if need be. Unfortunately, some of these individuals lack the Balls to actually step up and be counted, Uncle at least, was willing to debate an issue, and leave when he Lost....as defined in the debate rules.
I might point out that the true "King of the Basement", is not me, but rather someone who seems incapable of making a thread that does not inevitably get shoved down here. The King might also be stupid enough to not recognize this fact....seems rather obvious to me. I will admit I use the basement as required to accomplish my tasks, and to point out the absolute ignorance inherent in certain....individuals here. The best part is they keep making new material simply by existing.

Thanks for that, and.....keep it up, Sport

 

[ngdawg]

Well, now that he's 'gone'....
Oy, what a putz....the numbers he so adamantly disagrees with include Jews in Poland, Holland, The Chec republic...Auschwitz was in Poland.:roll:
Uncle is using information gleened through one Richard Harewood, a British Neo-Nazi who wrote the book 'Did Six Million Really Die" and who did not actually do any research into the Red Cross, but merely conjectured based on their relief efforts.
Harewood repeatedly asserted that from August 1942 the ICRC was
allowed to visit and distribute food parcels to major concentration
camps in Germany, and that from February 1943 this privilege was
extended to all other camps and prisons.<55> Harwood claimed that
this information was to be found on page 78 of the report's third
volume. The page did refer to 'major concentration camps' in
Germany but indicated that they included only Dachau and
Oranienburg. The concession that was extended in 1943 included all
other camps and prisons _in Germany_.<56> This meant that numerous
camps outside Germany were not included. Moreover, the Red Cross
acknowledged that it was limited to giving parcels only to deported
aliens for whom it had addresses, and that many inmates, among them
the vast majority of Jews, were not allowed to receive food parcels
at all." (Lipstadt, 116)

The true depth of Mr. Kuschel's "research" is now clear - he hasn't
done any! This reality is driven home when Lipstadt addresses the
primary issue - did the ICRC deny the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz?
source

 

[Pen]

Perhaps White would be willing to step in for Uncle and we can have a twofer?

 

[Uncle]

Funny little "Kid" that you have your own Tortured Debate thread....awaiting your input, yet you decided to play in this one....what a suprise. I well understand how limited the activity is within your warped brain, but even you should be able to grasp the sole purpose of this thread....and my intent behind its creation. Though I do enjoy a good debate, this one had little chance of becoming one (I do admit the final statement by Uncle had Merit), My purpose here was to force a white supremesist out of the Forum....and I have done so.
There are still a few here, (yourself included), but I am a patient man, and will take you all on one at a time if need be. Unfortunately, some of these individuals lack the Balls to actually step up and be counted, Uncle at least, was willing to debate an issue, and leave when he Lost....as defined in the debate rules.

“A coward dies a thousand times before his death; The valiant ne’er taste of death but once.” — Shakespeare

Well, coward, this is goodbye. As I told you when you first wanted to debate me: "you're not qualified". And obviously you weren't or you would have forgiven the two hours and continued on. You had nothing to dispute my words, nor did anyone else who wants to come forward with nothing now. It is no big deal though. You see, I accomplished what I started out to do and that was to make those who have brains larger than sparrows question the so-called "facts" of the ''holocaust''. Those who wont accept being lied to will follow up and see that what I posted is true. They will see that there was no holocaust and then they will carry forward the truth. And from there they will continue to learn about the zionist and the hold they have on much of the world. When zion tries to make it illegal here to discuss the ''holocaust'', as they have in many other countries, maybe, just maybe, these people will stand up and stop the censors of truth.

You can continue this debate and win, all by yourself. Prove, with documentation, that there were even one million jews exterminated by the Germans. That will redeem you in the eyes of everyone here who has seen you for the coward that you are. You have plenty of supporters here. Between all of you, you should be able to come up with just one million. Best of luck and kiss the betters mans *** goodbye as I make my exit never to deal with this board again.

 

[tecoyah]

As stated at the onset of this debate, there is no way to validate the number of dead in the Holocaust, thus its a rather pointless debate if we focus on the number, as I indicated earlier. My intent is to get you to express the reasoning behind a need to play this numbers game. Lets just say there were whatever number of dead you decide on.
Now, there were alot of civilians killed for some reason, what do you think this reason might have been?

And yet....he focused on arbitrary numbers. But, Now that he is gone (my intent from the onset), lets just humor his memory and play the numbers game, Who knows, we may get a couple more White Power activists to play along:

Part 1)BERLIN, Jan. 15 (JTA) -- Documents that have gathered dust in British archives for more than half a century reveal long-hidden information about the Holocaust, two researchers say.

The two published their findings in the latest edition of the journal Holocaust and Genocide Studies, which is co-published by the Oxford University Press and the Washington-based U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum.

According to authors Stephen Tyas of England and Peter Witte of Germany, the recently declassified and decoded Nazi radio dispatches "for the first time" show the Nazis' own accounting of the numbers of Jews killed in 1942 in four Nazi camps.

In that year, a total of 1,274,166 Jews were killed in the extermination camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as well as in the Majdanek concentration camp.

The decoded document indicates that 24,733 were killed in Majdanek, 434,508 in Belzec, 101,370 in Sobibor and 713,555 in Treblinka in 1942.

The information was broadcast in coded messages from occupied Lublin, Poland, on Jan. 11, 1943.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/JTA150102.html
decoded document:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/Heim311242.html

I will await any Stormfront members input,before going to part 2

Oh....and by the way, feel free to use this, as I am well aware of its source, and errors.

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/numbers.htm