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Torture

Should we torture prisoners?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • No.

    Votes: 22 56.4%
  • Only in some cases

    Votes: 12 30.8%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • Total voters
    39

Calm2Chaos

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Billo_Really said:
Yeah, but a stupid man tortures the living with un-educated bullshit!

Blah Blah Blah........ Maybe we should just invite them in to all of our highrise buildings after we pay for there flight training. God I can't understand why you would want to actually fight people willing to do anything to kill you. How stupid an idea is of that. We should allow them to do anything they want to anybody they want and applaud afterwards. That way we will always be on the moral highground. Our soldiers will be ground beef and our cities might be in a lot more danger. But at least will have the fukin moral high ground that so god damm important to nothing.....
 

jallman

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Gandhi>Bush said:
What are the benefits of making him more pliable?

Obtaining strategic information, locations of our POW's, names of their espionage agents. Drugs I think would be the best and most humane route to go with this type of interrogation, but if that fails...make him talk. Information obtained should be used comparatively rather than utilized to form new objectives.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Calm2Chaos said:
Blah Blah Blah........ Maybe we should just invite them in to all of our highrise buildings after we pay for there flight training. God I can't understand why you would want to actually fight people willing to do anything to kill you. How stupid an idea is of that. We should allow them to do anything they want to anybody they want and applaud afterwards. That way we will always be on the moral highground. Our soldiers will be ground beef and our cities might be in a lot more danger. But at least will have the fukin moral high ground that so god damm important to nothing.....

Important to nothing? What is the point of defending our freedoms if we use them to choose evil?
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Important to nothing? What is the point of defending our freedoms if we use them to choose evil?

What is the point? I don't know. I don't understand the question of the post you're referring to. Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you or put up a post. But oh well, I was bored.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Important to nothing? What is the point of defending our freedoms if we use them to choose evil?

Your pasley flowers and utopian view is great. But the facts as I see them are that there are people out there that want to hurt us. And I want to get information from them to stop that. If that means I torture a throat cutter to get it then he's in a whole world of trouble. And hopefully that information saves lives. You call the gathering of that information evil if we are mean to the guy that wanted to kill us. I call it a measured response to gain information to possibly safegaurd the citizens of this country and possibly it's soldiers. If thats evil then paint a tail and horns on me. I will be ALIVE, FREE and HAPPY.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Calm2Chaos said:
Your pasley flowers and utopian view is great. But the facts as I see them are that there are people out there that want to hurt us. And I want to get information from them to stop that. If that means I torture a throat cutter to get it then he's in a whole world of trouble. And hopefully that information saves lives. You call the gathering of that information evil if we are mean to the guy that wanted to kill us. I call it a measured response to gain information to possibly safegaurd the citizens of this country and possibly it's soldiers. If thats evil then paint a tail and horns on me. I will be ALIVE, FREE and HAPPY.

Our soldiers risk their lives everyday to safeguard what this country stands for. I think for this country to support the use of torture demeans what our soldiers put their lives on the line for and ultimately demeans them. Torture is unethical. Our country should have nothing to do with the unethical. It would be better for this country and all of it's citizens to perish because America was land of greatness that had a people that did what was right rather than last forever as a tyrant upon the world.
 

jallman

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Our soldiers risk their lives everyday to safeguard what this country stands for. I think for this country to support the use of torture demeans what our soldiers put their lives on the line for and ultimately demeans them. Torture is unethical. Our country should have nothing to do with the unethical. It would be better for this country and all of it's citizens to perish because America was land of greatness that had a people that did what was right rather than last forever as a tyrant upon the world.

As quaint and charming as your idealistic view of war is, it does not reflect the true nature and harsh reality of what war really is. A vital piece of information can save hundreds of lives and sometimes even end as war ahead of schedule. If all thats standing between our interrogators and that information is a shot of some heavy sedative, then by all means, stick that bastard and get the information. If all thats between us and a possible conclusion to a bloody conflict is the willpower of a strategist, then by all means, break his will in half.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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jallman said:
As quaint and charming as your idealistic view of war is, it does not reflect the true nature and harsh reality of what war really is. A vital piece of information can save hundreds of lives and sometimes even end as war ahead of schedule. If all thats standing between our interrogators and that information is a shot of some heavy sedative, then by all means, stick that bastard and get the information. If all thats between us and a possible conclusion to a bloody conflict is the willpower of a strategist, then by all means, break his will in half.

I want you to know that it is taking all of the energy out of me to resist simply saying, "THAT IS WHY WE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN BLOODY CONFLICTS"... But I suppose let's keep our discussion going.

I think this is the point where we need to define torture. What crosses the limit? Sedatives don't bother me, but I don't like any notions of physical or mental torture.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Calm2Chaos:
Blah Blah Blah........ Maybe we should just invite them in to all of our highrise buildings after we pay for there flight training. God I can't understand why you would want to actually fight people willing to do anything to kill you. How stupid an idea is of that. We should allow them to do anything they want to anybody they want and applaud afterwards. That way we will always be on the moral highground. Our soldiers will be ground beef and our cities might be in a lot more danger. But at least will have the fukin moral high ground that so god damm important to nothing.....
Its not really an either/or situation now, is it? Just because you don't torture them, does not mean you invite them to dinner. Is this really how you think? Do you really think these are the only options on the table? Treating them humanely while incarcerated does not mean you have to allow them to do anything to you. Nor does it mean you condone what they did.

But you are treating someone that has been detained as if they have already gone to trial and received a verdict. I don't care how much this bothers you, but a person is "innocent until proven guilty". No matter how much your immoral bones want to hurt others that you don't know, a presumption of innocence is a major part of our judicial system. And for good reason.

One last thing, saying if we don't torture, our soldiers and cities might be in more danger is a pretty weak arguement to give up ones humanity.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Our soldiers risk their lives everyday to safeguard what this country stands for. I think for this country to support the use of torture demeans what our soldiers put their lives on the line for and ultimately demeans them. Torture is unethical. Our country should have nothing to do with the unethical. It would be better for this country and all of it's citizens to perish because America was land of greatness that had a people that did what was right rather than last forever as a tyrant upon the world.

Torture has been used by every nation in every war. It is nothing new to us or any other nation. When your dealing with bad people you sometimes have to use extreme measures. War is not ethical to begin with, if you want to fight an ethical war you will suffer an unethical defeat
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Calm2Chaos said:
Torture has been used by every nation in every war. It is nothing new to us or any other nation. When your dealing with bad people you sometimes have to use extreme measures. War is not ethical to begin with, if you want to fight an ethical war you will suffer an unethical defeat

Just because every other country in the world has engaged in torture does not make it acceptable for us to engage in it. America should stand for something. It should be the greatest country in the world and through that medium we should show the world how to act, rather than showing them how everyone acts.
 

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scottyz said:
IIRC the CIA has concluded that torture is an ineffective way of gathering good information. The victim will tell you whatever he/she thinks will make the pain stop.

This is true with sustained torture. The truth is that after a certain point, torture is useless for gathering information. However, interrogation techniques "less than torture" can be administered for a longer period before it becomes useless.

I voted "only in some cases."
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Just because every other country in the world has engaged in torture does not make it acceptable for us to engage in it. America should stand for something. It should be the greatest country in the world and through that medium we should show the world how to act, rather than showing them how everyone acts.

I actually agree with you for once. Fancy that...

But referring to one of your above posts, what (in your opinion) would classify as being "mental torture"?
 

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Though I don't believe in torture we need to get the info out of the terrorist- one way or an other.
 

jallman

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I want you to know that it is taking all of the energy out of me to resist simply saying, "THAT IS WHY WE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN BLOODY CONFLICTS"... But I suppose let's keep our discussion going.

I think this is the point where we need to define torture. What crosses the limit? Sedatives don't bother me, but I don't like any notions of physical or mental torture.


Well, I think torture can be defined as using any means beyond verbal interrogation. Any act of individual extortion through threat of physical pain or endurance of mental anguish. I believe sedatives and sodium pentathol to be extortive measures also.

Let me state again...acceptable forms of torture would be non scarring pain infliction, short term starvation, long term sleep deprivation, and drugs. Unacceptable would be infliction of invasive wounds, long term starvation, and the like.
 

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This whole torture thing just went wild in the minds of the ignorant. It's gotten to the point where we can't even put sandbags on their heads when we catch them. Now they get to stay focused on their surroundings, which offers them the ideas of escape, which endangers the Marine and is certainly deadly to the prisoner. We can't use the sandbags over their heads and plant them in the sun for a few minutes (it only takes about 15) in order to get immediate information on IEDS in the cities, which endanger the lives of Marines on patrols and civilians.

But hey....as long "Mothers of America" feel good about themselves knowing that we don't "torture", who cares who dies in the process.
 

The Mark

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GySgt said:
This whole torture thing just went wild in the minds of the ignorant. It's gotten to the point where we can't even put sandbags on their heads when we catch them. Now they get to stay focused on their surroundings, which offers them the ideas of escape, which endangers the Marine and is certainly deadly to the prisoner. We can't use the sandbags over their heads and plant them in the sun for a few minutes (it only takes about 15) in order to get immediate information on IEDS in the cities, which endanger the lives of Marines on patrols and civilians.

But hey....as long "Mothers of America" feel good about themselves knowing that we don't "torture", who cares who dies in the process.

The scenarios you describe here don't sound like torture to me....they sound like interrogation....

And I just thought of something......If I remember my history correctly, in the Viet Nam war there were some restrictions on where, when, and what the soldiers could do. This is one of the reasons that they were unable to win, IMO.

Following that thought process, and if GySgt's scenarios are accurate, would it not be logical to think that we may be starting down the same path here?

Just a thought I had.
 

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The Mark said:
The scenarios you describe here don't sound like torture to me....they sound like interrogation....

And I just thought of something......If I remember my history correctly, in the Viet Nam war there were some restrictions on where, when, and what the soldiers could do. This is one of the reasons that they were unable to win, IMO.

Following that thought process, and if GySgt's scenarios are accurate, would it not be logical to think that we may be starting down the same path here?

Just a thought I had.


Not exactly, but good thoughts. Vietnam was a politicians war fought by civilians back home at the "soldiers" expense abroad. In other words, everytime a hill was taken, our political leaders would back them up. Later, they would just fight for the same ground only to, again, back up. Vietnam started out on the right path, but the American public and the government made it difficult.

In Iraq, except for one incident (Fallujah-the first time), politics have remained outside of the military. Vietnam taught our government a valuable lesson...to fight and to accomplish a military mission, it must be conducted by the military. So far, everything from rooting out insurgent nests to training Iraqi's have been largely and solely at the discretion of the "proffesionals." Iraq is already a success to us. Our mission is complete. What's left is for us to help Iraqis accomplish theirs, which is closer than people think. The only question in this is the local Sunni that do not want an equal Iraq.
 

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GySgt said:
This whole torture thing just went wild in the minds of the ignorant.

You must have been in the military, considering the handle you use here. But I don't know your history, or how long you were a POW, how much you were tortured. And I don't have any POW, torture, or even military history. So any bull I talk is just that, and yours may not be a lot better (I apologize in advance if you were a POW and were tortured, in Vietnam or elsewhere).

But we can all take anything John McCain says to the bank. He is the man. I have a lot of respect for every person who has served in the military, and for McCain, in my mind, I have built a pedestal, and he owns it.

So John McCain, a man who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for five years, and was tortured by two-legged vermin there, and who now is a fine U.S. Senator, is the first man I listen to as my expert on torture:

"The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/?Page=Article&ID=4221
 

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tryreading said:
You must have been in the military, considering the handle you use here. But I don't know your history, or how long you were a POW, how much you were tortured. And I don't have any POW, torture, or even military history. So any bull I talk is just that, and yours may not be a lot better (I apologize in advance if you were a POW and were tortured, in Vietnam or elsewhere).

But we can all take anything John McCain says to the bank. He is the man. I have a lot of respect for every person who has served in the military, and for McCain, in my mind, I have built a pedestal, and he owns it.

So John McCain, a man who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for five years, and was tortured by two-legged vermin there, and who now is a fine U.S. Senator, is the first man I listen to as my expert on torture:

"The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/?Page=Article&ID=4221


13 years 6 months. Currently Active Duty. Trust me, you can trust "my bull." Would you like a summery of record?

Senator McCain is correct, of course. He also knows the difference between torture and interrogation.
 
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All you ppl who are for torture and christians should be ashamed of yourselves. Remember the torture Jesus went thru. Then THINK, would Jesus want me to do the same or similar thing to someone else? NO! Jesus would not want that. Jesus never said (that I know of) to not fight your enemies, but he did say to love you enemies. Cuz if you only love those who love you back, then what does one gain? What are the rewards? As much as I hate the ACTIONS of the terrorists, I cannot hate THEM, the human beings that they are. Yes, they are human, just brain-washed.
 

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Donkey1499 said:
All you ppl who are for torture and christians should be ashamed of yourselves. Remember the torture Jesus went thru. Then THINK, would Jesus want me to do the same or similar thing to someone else? NO! Jesus would not want that. Jesus never said (that I know of) to not fight your enemies, but he did say to love you enemies. Cuz if you only love those who love you back, then what does one gain? What are the rewards? As much as I hate the ACTIONS of the terrorists, I cannot hate THEM, the human beings that they are. Yes, they are human, just brain-washed.

I am fairly certain that no one is for torture.........but interrogation is another story.

The real debate here is what torture is defined as. And that debate will never end, because peoples opinion of what torture is varies widely.

Also, I thought I'd mention that I, personally, do not hate the terrorists. And I agree with you that they are human of some sort. And most definitely brain-washed.

If we could stop the brain-washing, we would win this war.
 

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The Mark said:
I am fairly certain that no one is for torture.........but interrogation is another story.

The real debate here is what torture is defined as. And that debate will never end, because peoples opinion of what torture is varies widely.

Also, I thought I'd mention that I, personally, do not hate the terrorists. And I agree with you that they are human of some sort. And most definitely brain-washed.

If we could stop the brain-washing, we would win this war.

Precisely. I don't mind interrogation, but torture (like what happened in Abu-Ghrab) is not necessary, and it just lowers us to their standard.

Interrogation in my opinion is like what you see on a Law & Order. Get to their head (like Det. Gorm on Criminal Intent), break them down mentally, play their game to last minute. There should be NO physical contact, except for the necessary kind (like cuffing and escorting to and from the cell.)
 
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