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Torture Techniques Copied from Communists

danarhea

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What did we learn from the Korean and Vietnam wars? How to torture people, of course, but we learned wrong on when to apply the application of torture. What the Red Army already knew was that torture was no good for extracting information, but that is not the reason they used those techniques. All they were going for were false confessions which they could use in their propaganda. On the other hand, we use them for the very reason the Communists didnt - To extract information, and of course, when people are tortured, they will do anything to make it stop, including making up whatever "facts" necessary to stop it.

Aside from the pragmatic fact that we should not torture because it does not work, we should also not do it because it is repugnant and immoral. Once upon a time, America was looked up to because we represented a higher moral standard. That is no longer the case. We have lost our standing as the world's moral leader.

Article is here.
 

Archon

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danarhea said:
What did we learn from the Korean and Vietnam wars? How to torture people, of course, but we learned wrong on when to apply the application of torture. What the Red Army already knew was that torture was no good for extracting information, but that is not the reason they used those techniques. All they were going for were false confessions which they could use in their propaganda. On the other hand, we use them for the very reason the Communists didnt - To extract information, and of course, when people are tortured, they will do anything to make it stop, including making up whatever "facts" necessary to stop it.

Aside from the pragmatic fact that we should not torture because it does not work, we should also not do it because it is repugnant and immoral. Once upon a time, America was looked up to because we represented a higher moral standard. That is no longer the case. We have lost our standing as the world's moral leader.

Article is here.
Wether or not torture does in fact work to gain intelligence is not determined by sitting behind a keyboard and reading various press releases. With all due respect.

It takes a very strong willed person to endure torture and not spill the beans. It is common practice in all forms of law enforcement to use many tactics that in no way equate to torture, yet do serve to break the psyche of their suspects. Mostly it is done in the form of deprevation.
There comes a time, on rare occasions, when torture may be your only means to extract information from a particular source.

I realize your implication here... that nothing may be good enough for the marxist type of torture... regardless of what might be said the torture will persist. However there is reward factor involved in revelation. Today we have the technology and intelligence network which can help us to determine if a person is being truthful or if their claims hold any credence. We can more so than ever determine when someone is being truthful or sincere.

There are times when certain cruel and unusual tactics are used by several facets of law enforcement. To attempt to exonorate our own ideal of patriotism and constitutional law in this aspect is too little and too late. Things happen behind closed doors and they have been happening for years. Contrary to the belief of the press or yourself when circumstance dictates the neccessity for such intervention it can be effective.
 

danarhea

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Archon said:
Wether or not torture does in fact work to gain intelligence is not determined by sitting behind a keyboard and reading various press releases. With all due respect.

It takes a very strong willed person to endure torture and not spill the beans. It is common practice in all forms of law enforcement to use many tactics that in no way equate to torture, yet do serve to break the psyche of their suspects. Mostly it is done in the form of deprevation.
There comes a time, on rare occasions, when torture may be your only means to extract information from a particular source.

I realize your implication here... that nothing may be good enough for the marxist type of torture... regardless of what might be said the torture will persist. However there is reward factor involved in revelation. Today we have the technology and intelligence network which can help us to determine if a person is being truthful or if their claims hold any credence. We can more so than ever determine when someone is being truthful or sincere.

There are times when certain cruel and unusual tactics are used by several facets of law enforcement. To attempt to exonorate our own ideal of patriotism and constitutional law in this aspect is too little and too late. Things happen behind closed doors and they have been happening for years. Contrary to the belief of the press or yourself when circumstance dictates the neccessity for such intervention it can be effective.
First of all, let me congratulate you on a well thought out response. Debate such as you are giving is all I am looking for - Not personal attacks, but real debate. That is very much appreciated. Thank you.

Now for my rebuttal. I may be sitting behind a keyboard, but I know enough about the subject to realize that this is not the result of deprivation, or other such techniques - Only of governmental spin used to justify the kinds of techniques you see here:



God help us all if we choose to accept this.
 

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danarhea said:
First of all, let me congratulate you on a well thought out response. Debate such as you are giving is all I am looking for - Not personal attacks, but real debate. That is very much appreciated. Thank you.

Now for my rebuttal. I may be sitting behind a keyboard, but I know enough about the subject to realize that this is not the result of deprivation, or other such techniques - Only of governmental spin used to justify the kinds of techniques you see here:



God help us all if we choose to accept this.
I can completely agree with you here. The type of torture that we have witnessed many times over in Abu Ghraib do nothing more than to relic the type of senseless inhumane treatment that should not ever exist.

I suppose I may have misperceived your original post as competely anti-improvisational. I apologize. I do think that many techniques used by somewhat non-qualified (pfc, enlistees and outside intelligence analysists) are overbearing in many instances. Even at Gitmo the sense of emotional torture was blanketed and only served the marxist view of torture. I do now realize what you are saying and I agree. (and thank you for being civil as well, it's quite refreshing. Sincerely)
 
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danarhea

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Archon said:
I can completely agree with you here. The type of torture that we have witnessed many times over in Abu Ghraib do nothing more than to relic the type of senseless inhumane treatment that should not ever exist.

I suppose I may have misperceived your original post as competely anti-improvisational. I apologize. I do think that many techniques used by somewhat non-qualified (pfc, enlistees and outside intelligence analysists) are overbearing in many instances. Even at Gitmo the sense of emotional torture was blanketed and only served the marxist view of torture. I do now realize what you are saying and I agree. (and thank you for being civil as well, it's quite refreshing. Sincerely)
Actually, you have brought up a good point yourself. Almost all the torture we have witnessed at places such as Abu Ghraib were not carried out by our troops, but by "contractors". However, those few, and I mean very few, soldiers who are doing this are a disgrace to the uniform. Any soldier who is found out to have committed acts like this should be court-martialed, busted down to private, imprisoned, and dishonorably discharged. It is my feeling (and only my feeling, since I am not there) that the witnessing of acts of torture by "contractors" have had a demoralizing effect on our troops all by themselves, and may partially account for the fact that the administration needs to use stop-loss because fewer are voluntarily reenlisting these days.
 
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danarhea said:
Actually, you have brought up a good point yourself. Almost all the torture we have witnessed at places such as Abu Ghraib were not carried out by our troops, but by "contractors". However, those few, and I mean very few, soldiers who are doing this are a disgrace to the uniform. Any soldier who is found out to have committed acts like this should be court-martialed, busted down to private, imprisoned, and dishonorably discharged. It is my feeling (and only my feeling, since I am not there) that the witnessing of acts of torture by "contractors" have had a demoralizing effect on our troops all by themselves, and may partially account for the fact that the administration needs to use stop-loss because fewer are voluntarily reenlisting these days.
I think one major attribute to this type of incommunicado in the intelligence community is the breakdown of personal political (and moral) belief. I do think we need to find common groud amongst the inter most factions of our most clandestine operations. Until that happens and until we get an administration that can send clear signals I think that we are only working against ourselves.
 

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danarhea said:
Actually, you have brought up a good point yourself. Almost all the torture we have witnessed at places such as Abu Ghraib were not carried out by our troops, but by "contractors". However, those few, and I mean very few, soldiers who are doing this are a disgrace to the uniform. Any soldier who is found out to have committed acts like this should be court-martialed, busted down to private, imprisoned, and dishonorably discharged. It is my feeling (and only my feeling, since I am not there) that the witnessing of acts of torture by "contractors" have had a demoralizing effect on our troops all by themselves, and may partially account for the fact that the administration needs to use stop-loss because fewer are voluntarily reenlisting these days.
We are doing exactly that, prosecuting those who engage in prohibited behaviors and reenlistments rates are up and all branches met the goals last month.
 

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danarhea said:
What did we learn from the Korean and Vietnam wars? How to torture people, of course, but we learned wrong on when to apply the application of torture. What the Red Army already knew was that torture was no good for extracting information, but that is not the reason they used those techniques. All they were going for were false confessions which they could use in their propaganda. On the other hand, we use them for the very reason the Communists didnt - To extract information, and of course, when people are tortured, they will do anything to make it stop, including making up whatever "facts" necessary to stop it.

Aside from the pragmatic fact that we should not torture because it does not work, we should also not do it because it is repugnant and immoral. Once upon a time, America was looked up to because we represented a higher moral standard. That is no longer the case. We have lost our standing as the world's moral leader.

Article is here.

And yet, another bashing thread!!!
 

danarhea

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Stinger said:
We are doing exactly that, prosecuting those who engage in prohibited behaviors and reenlistments rates are up and all branches met the goals last month.
I would like to believe that, but everything I have read indicates otherwise. Read this link. Its the second article down, "A better option than the draft?" from April of this year, and addresses first term attrition. In addition, this link shows that recruiting is down 8%, and that recruiting for the important military jobs is down 35%. In order to make up for the deficit on important jobs, other jobs are overstaffed. While that might make some areas appear to have reenlistment and recruiting increases, there is still an overall loss, and America's readiness suffers because of it. Depending on exactly where you are in the service, the overall appearance will be as either meeting goals or falling dreadfully short of those goals, hence the differing opinions from voices within the military itself, but from the raw numbers themselves, the military has been missing its goals for overall recruitment and retention for quite some time now.
 

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danarhea said:
I would like to believe that, but everything I have read indicates otherwise. Read this link. Its the second article down, "A better option than the draft?" from April of this year, and addresses first term attrition. In addition, this link shows that recruiting is down 8%, and that recruiting for the important military jobs is down 35%. In order to make up for the deficit on important jobs, other jobs are overstaffed. While that might make some areas appear to have reenlistment and recruiting increases, there is still an overall loss, and America's readiness suffers because of it. Depending on exactly where you are in the service, the overall appearance will be as either meeting goals or falling dreadfully short of those goals, hence the differing opinions from voices within the military itself, but from the raw numbers themselves, the military has been missing its goals for overall recruitment and retention for quite some time now.

Yes, it's rediculous to think that war would lessen recruits.:roll:

Even in times of peace, the Army has always had trouble with recruiting. The Marine Corps had it's first mistep earlier this year for the first time in 10 years. Even with these "misses" nothing is permanently damaged like so many are parading around to suit their own agendas.

War has always had a way of weeding out the weak. During "peace time", the service is full of individuals who wear a uniform for the college benefits, the uniform, the priveledge of labeling oneself a "soldier", etc. These would be the same individuals that complain and use any excuse imaginable to speak out against deploying to a war. The National Guard and reserves are full of these people. During war, especially in the Army and the Marines, individuals join knowing full well that they are joining and deploying to war. They know they will not cheese their way through their contract and they know they will serve their country in the manner and for the reasons the military exists. Furthermore, the ones that remain in uniform and renew their contracts know full well that they stand the very good chance of re-deploying again and again. Despite the rambling of individuals that wish desperately for the failures of current events and an even more decline of unity within our country to excuse away their personal inadequicies, the active military is stronger.
 

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danarhea said:
Actually, you have brought up a good point yourself. Almost all the torture we have witnessed at places such as Abu Ghraib were not carried out by our troops, but by "contractors". However, those few, and I mean very few, soldiers who are doing this are a disgrace to the uniform. Any soldier who is found out to have committed acts like this should be court-martialed, busted down to private, imprisoned, and dishonorably discharged. It is my feeling (and only my feeling, since I am not there) that the witnessing of acts of torture by "contractors" have had a demoralizing effect on our troops all by themselves, and may partially account for the fact that the administration needs to use stop-loss because fewer are voluntarily reenlisting these days.

What torture? Do you mean the humiliations carried out by National Guardsmen? Hardly the military and hardly torture. Whatever serves your purposes though right? What is demoralizing to "our" troops is individuals who parade around words like "torture" whenever they can use it to wreck current events and to bash another political party and then get to hear from those very same individuals afterwards about how they "support the troop."

Nice attempt to stand apart from them though. Using the word "contractor" to ease the bashing.:roll:
 
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