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Torrenting Movies and games: Theft or no?

Is torrenting/file sharing theft?


  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .

Harshaw

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That's like saying I deprive wal-mart of sales because I buy from Target or vice versa. You're can't be deprived of something that you never had.

No, it isn't. That's silly. We're not talking about a situation where you decide to buy someoene else's game or song or whatever. You decide to take it from ME without paying.



How does it make me a dick to share my own property? I bought the copy and the copy is mine, so I fail to understand how making a copy of it makes me a dick. It is also only a possibility that people would have bought the product from an establishment that would benefit the original owner, not a sure thing.

It makes you dick for the reasons I already told you. You're not "sharing your property." You're making copies and spreading them around. Why would you do that?

Like I said, if you don't retain a copy for yourself, then there's no problem with you giving away or selling your copy. But that's not what you're describing.
 

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I think there needs to be some reform on IP laws. The current standard is unworkable in this day and age- software and media can be copied without being taken away from the original creator. Big movie studios, RIAA and big pharma are trying to monopolize distribution and its biting them in the foot, they need to reform the way they run and the government needs to stop abetting them.
 

Harshaw

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I think there needs to be some reform on IP laws. The current standard is unworkable in this day and age- software and media can be copied without being taken away from the original creator. Big movie studios, RIAA and big pharma are trying to monopolize distribution and its biting them in the foot, they need to reform the way they run and the government needs to stop abetting them.

Arguments for reform are fine.
 

Henrin

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No, it isn't. That's silly. We're not talking about a situation where you decide to buy someoene else's game or song or whatever. You decide to take it from ME without paying.

No one took anything from the owner. They either made a copy of a copy that the owner sold or downloaded a copy of a copy that the owner sold.


It makes you dick for the reasons I already told you. You're not "sharing your property." You're making copies and spreading them around. Why would you do that?

The copy is mine and it is my property, so when I copy it and give it out to others I am in fact sharing my property.


Like I said, if you don't retain a copy for yourself, then there's no problem with you giving away or selling your copy. But that's not what you're describing.

That's completely unnecessary since keeping a copy for myself doesn't change anything about the situation.
 

Harshaw

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No one took anything from the owner. They either made a copy of a copy that the owner sold or downloaded a copy of a copy that the owner sold.

You took a copy for free without paying the creator/owner for his labor.


The copy is mine and it is my property, so when I copy it and give it out to others I am in fact sharing my property.

No, you're copying. You're not depriving yourself of anything, which what "sharing" would actually entail.

But I asked you, and you did not answer -- WHY would you do this?



That's completely unnecessary since keeping a copy for myself doesn't change anything about the situation.

Of course it does. You can buy a book and then sell or give away that book. That book is a physical thing, and once you give it away, it's gone. You can do the same with a DVD or a CD.

But that's not what you're doing when you're copying and then distributing.
 

Ikari

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Yes, it's thievery, and yes, it hurts.



Easy to say when you're not creating content that's being stolen.

I, however, do. Sales go down when torrents and pirated downloads proliferate. After whacking those down, sales go up again.

People won't buy if there's a free option. But if they want it, they'll pay for it when there isn't.

If I were going to buy something, I'll buy it even if there's a free option. If something is worth my money, then I'll purchase it. But there are many things I wasn't going to buy and I may torrent instead. Some stuff isn't worth the money they charge...like cable TV.

Pirating is a great way for companies to learn their quality or pricing is off, lol.
 

Ikari

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LOL BTW Ubisoft is having their 30th anniversary. They are giving away a free old game each month.

The other year or something, they had a Star Wars sales...I bought in. I have pretty much all the Star Wars games now going all the way back to Dark Forces and X-Wing.

Dark Forces cheat codes still work...hahaha
 

Harshaw

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If I were going to buy something, I'll buy it even if there's a free option. If something is worth my money, then I'll purchase it.

Why, specifically?
 

Henrin

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You took a copy for free without paying the creator/owner for his labor.

Your point? That's not taking anything from the owner of the original copy.


No, you're copying. You're not depriving yourself of anything, which what "sharing" would actually entail.

The joint use of a resource is sharing.

But I asked you, and you did not answer -- WHY would you do this?

Why would I do what? Copy my own property or download a copy of other peoples property? Because I can and I can avoid dealing with payment when I do it.


Of course it does. You can buy a book and then sell or give away that book. That book is a physical thing, and once you give it away, it's gone. You can do the same with a DVD or a CD.

But that's not what you're doing when you're copying and then distributing.

So?
 

Harshaw

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Your point? That's not taking anything from the owner of the original copy.

It's taking their labor without compensation, and if you're actually a libertarian, that's something you should be able to understand.


The joint use of a resource is sharing.

But it isn't "joint use." You aren't sharing your Twinkies or a bucket of water. You don't "share" a thing.


Why would I do what? Copy my own property or download a copy of other peoples property? Because I can and I can avoid dealing with payment when I do it.

Actually, I was asking why you'd make copies and distribute them to others, but here you answered the $64,000 question: you just want to take stuff without having to pay for it.

Which makes you a thief. It simply does.



So, it's the answer to your question.
 

Harshaw

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The joint use of a resource is sharing.

And since when is someone else's labor a "resource" to be "shared"?

Are you SURE you're a libertarian?
 

Henrin

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And since when is someone else's labor a "resource" to be "shared"?

Are you SURE you're a libertarian?

I already went over the labor argument. I'm sharing my property, not their labor.
 

Cephus

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Right. Is there anything, anything at all, that you would pay for if you had the option to take it for free?

Of course there isn't. The only reason you'd do it is charity, which isn't "business."

Absolutely, which is why I have a ridiculously large commercial DVD/Bluray collection. I could go out and download every single one of those movies any time I want but I went out and spent money on them because it was worth it for me to do so.
 

Harshaw

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I already went over the labor argument. I'm sharing my property, not their labor.

No, you're sharing their labor. If you bought a copy, you bought ONE copy, and on your own terms, you keep that copy. You don't part with your property. You only part with someone else's work.

You already said you take things without paying for them because you don't wan to pay for them. But you never did answer why you'd also want to make copies and distribute them.
 

Ikari

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Why, specifically?

Because if I'm deriving worth or entertainment out of something, I feel the creators of it deserve my money. Their product was good, the fruits of their labor delicious. For instance, I didn't have HBO Go in the past, but I love Game of Thrones. There are plenty of streaming services for free on the internet that allow you to watch TV programs. But I really enjoy Game of Thrones, I think they did a great job with the series (though the books are better). So instead, I purchase the seasons on my XBox noting that some portion of that sales has to go to the people making the show (and some other portion goes to the growing pile of money I've given to Microsoft over my lifetime). I also buy the Blu-Ray collections too. If someone does a good job, I think they should be rewarded.


But if their fruits suck, I'm not going to pay for it. I likely won't consume it, but I've torrented some horrible movies in the past to watch. But there can be other stuff that has such bad service that I say "fudge you" and pirate it. Sports for instance. I don't have regular TV, so I cannot watch baseball or hockey, things I really enjoy. I used to buy NHL Ice and whatever the same service is for baseball. But have you seen the blackout dates on that stuff? I hadn't quite anticipated just how ridiculous they go to shut you out of service after you purchased it. I used to live in New Jersey, and there even Pirate games were blacked out for being in a "local market". Not sure how Pittsburg is f'n local, but that was the claim. I bought NHL Ice to watch Redwing games, and then they black out all sorts of stuff. Nationally televised games and such, but I ain't got cable, it's why I got the service. But I got pissed off. Missed too many Cubs games too many Redwing games because those jerks blacked me out of so much, unreasonable crap. So fudge them. I stream the **** out of sports games now. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars to be blacked out of games I want to watch. Their service is ****, and they get nothing from me (not that they care, they're making money hand over fist).

I also torrent fan-subs, but that's because I can't get that stuff here in America. Also, as much as I love One Piece or Bleach or Naruto...I'm not buying those Blu-Ray. There's hundreds of episodes, it would cost a small fortune to buy them all.
 

Harshaw

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Absolutely, which is why I have a ridiculously large commercial DVD/Bluray collection. I could go out and download every single one of those movies any time I want but I went out and spent money on them because it was worth it for me to do so.

Why is it worth it for you to do so?
 

Harshaw

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Because if I'm deriving worth or entertainment out of something, I feel the creators of it deserve my money.

Well, then as I said earlier, that's charity rather than business. What you're describing is like tossing coins into a busker's guitar case.
 

Cephus

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Why is it worth it for you to do so?

Mostly convenience. It's hard to find the movie, all the DVD extras, etc. all in one package. My time is more valuable to me than the money it costs to just buy it.
 

Ikari

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Well, then as I said earlier, that's charity rather than business. What you're describing is like tossing coins into a busker's guitar case.

Well, play a good song then.

It aint charity, it's the entire basis of consumerism. Have something I want? I'll pay for it. Have great service? I'll pay a premium for that. Got ****? **** off. Not going to buy it. If curiosity gets the better of me, I may pirate it.

Don't like it? Then your product likely sucks.
 

Harshaw

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Mostly convenience. It's hard to find the movie, all the DVD extras, etc. all in one package. My time is more valuable to me than the money it costs to just buy it.

Then you're paying for something that you can't find for free. On your own terms.
 

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I regard it as theft if you would have otherwise paid for it. Also, if I already own it I don't consider it theft. If I have the VHS copy, if its on HBO/Netflix and I have a current subscription, or if I ever paid for it (not counting paid to see in theaters of course) then its not theft to me.

That said, when content creators make it too difficult to get to their content they're asking for it. Make it easy, DRM-free, what I want when/how I want it then you get my money.

Not a believer, but god bless Netflix, Youtube, Audible and comedians/musicians who put their specials/albums online for $5 or pay what you want (a trend I believe was set by Louis CK and Radiohead.)
 

Cephus

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Then you're paying for something that you can't find for free. On your own terms.

I can find it. Everything is out there if you know where to look. It's just less convenient to buy it than it is to go looking.
 
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