"Top Secret America"

[rivrrat]

Well, yes... because government employees have a direct chain to the people giving the orders within government... if it's employees of a private company... let's say they both have an illegal job to do. In theory, the government employee, must follow orders from a person a step closer between himself and the person giving the orders, and there's a set paper trail of this all. That is, in theory, publicly accessible.

No, it's not publicly accessible because it's top secret work. The chain of command is the same for govt employees and govt contractors if the orders come from the govt. When I worked as a govt contractor, I worked side by side with govt employees. I answered to the same people they did.

On the other hand, a private contract acts as a legal barrier against finding out anything more then like what happened with... It may have been blackwater, can't think of the name, but they call themselves XZ now, anyway, they were running a child slavery ring and the punishment was that the government stopped giving them contracts for 6 months.

If they were running a child slavery ring, then why weren't they prosecuted and jailed?

Honestly, it's the difference between a republic and a fascist state.

Holy crap. Contract work is fascist now? LOL How ya figure?

 

[Gabriel]

I'm still not getting why it's so concerning. Does it really matter if the people are actual govt employees or private contractors if they're doing the same things? What is the difference? If the contractors mess up, they lose the contract. It's in their best interest to do what the govt wants them to do in the manner in which the govt wants them to do it.

Look corporate private enterprise being involved with government at this level requires an integration of entities that should remain separate. Fascism has a strong tendency to integrate private enterprise with government. It is what it is. What the outcome of all that comes to depends on multiple factors. One of them being integration of private corporations and government as one entity. Straight off all legitimate political parties must be on side with the corporations economic goal of profit. In many ways this hamstrings real change in economic realms.

The integration of corporations with government top secret work on the scale that is spoke about in the documentary is unacceptable. They have unfettered access to top secret information. The government is handling the private corporations in a manner they don’t even know what they are all doing accept to say they are doing a lot of redundant work.

Clearly the cost of doing private for profit intelligence gathering is more expensive then doing the work internally at cost. The 9/11 catastrophe did not show a lack of intelligence with regards to the matter. What it did show was a willingness to put federal duties into the hands of private enterprise.. a reduced government CIA and an increase in corporate top secret work.

You talk about these contracts as though they are extremely limited.. but we don’t know what they are because of the top secret nature of them. Since these corporations are not committed to the well being of the public.. like the government is, your only destroying the publics power they get from democratic means. Power to the people is more like power to the corporations.

You can wonder endlessly to yourself all you like why I think this is wrong. But it sounds like a bias to me. Whatever the problem with integrating corporations with your governments top secret priorities?

 

[rivrrat]

Look corporate private enterprise being involved with government at this level requires an integration of entities that should remain separate. Fascism has a strong tendency to integrate private enterprise with government. It is what it is. What the outcome of all that comes to depends on multiple factors. One of them being integration of private corporations and government as one entity. Straight off all legitimate political parties must be on side with the corporations economic goal of profit. In many ways this hamstrings real change in economic realms.

The integration of corporations with government top secret work on the scale that is spoke about in the documentary is unacceptable. They have unfettered access to top secret information. The government is handling the private corporations in a manner they don’t even know what they are all doing accept to say they are doing a lot of redundant work.

Clearly the cost of doing private for profit intelligence gathering is more expensive then doing the work internally at cost. The 9/11 catastrophe did not show a lack of intelligence with regards to the matter. What it did show was a willingness to put federal duties into the hands of private enterprise.. a reduced government CIA and an increase in corporate top secret work.

You talk about these contracts as though they are extremely limited.. but we don’t know what they are because of the top secret nature of them. Since these corporations are not committed to the well being of the public.. like the government is, your only destroying the publics power they get from democratic means. Power to the people is more like power to the corporations.

You can wonder endlessly to yourself all you like why I think this is wrong. But it sounds like a bias to me. Whatever the problem with integrating corporations with your governments top secret priorities?

You're not getting my point. You say that you can't get insight to the contracts because they're with private companies. But that's not why you don't get insight into them. The fact that they're TOP SECRET is why you don't get insight into them. This would not change if it were govt employees doing the work as opposed to govt employees and govt contractors. They do not have "unfettered access" to top secret information. Only people with clearance have access and then they only have access to what is necessary to do their jobs. It is hardly "unfettered". Anyone who thinks that it is unfettered doesn't understand how the process works.

The govt DOES know what they're all doing, but not everyone in the govt knows what everyone else in the govt or their contractors are doing. This is a breakdown in communication between govt agencies, NOT a breakdown in communication between the govt and the contractors. Govt agency A hires contract group A to do something. Govt Agency B probably has no idea what Govt Agency A or their contractors are doing. But Agency A certainly does. The agencies themselves need to communicate better with one another so that they are not redundant, but there's so much ****ing bureaucracy and red tape and competition between agencies that they have no incentive to cooperate with one another. This is a completely separate issue to govt contractors. This would happen with or without govt contractors. So, that issue needs to be addressed separately.

 

[Gabriel]

You're not getting my point. You say that you can't get insight to the contracts because they're with private companies. But that's not why you don't get insight into them. The fact that they're TOP SECRET is why you don't get insight into them. This would not change if it were govt employees doing the work as opposed to govt employees and govt contractors. They do not have "unfettered access" to top secret information. Only people with clearance have access and then they only have access to what is necessary to do their jobs. It is hardly "unfettered". Anyone who thinks that it is unfettered doesn't understand how the process works.

The govt DOES know what they're all doing, but not everyone in the govt knows what everyone else in the govt or their contractors are doing. This is a breakdown in communication between govt agencies, NOT a breakdown in communication between the govt and the contractors. Govt agency A hires contract group A to do something. Govt Agency B probably has no idea what Govt Agency A or their contractors are doing. But Agency A certainly does. The agencies themselves need to communicate better with one another so that they are not redundant, but there's so much ****ing bureaucracy and red tape and competition between agencies that they have no incentive to cooperate with one another. This is a completely separate issue to govt contractors. This would happen with or without govt contractors. So, that issue needs to be addressed separately.

The white house expressed concern about what information has been accessed. I don't get access to what a corporation is doing in public matters is what your saying? This is wrong. Your contract arguments are completely a technical argument there is little that anyone can do to prove ether way that contracts weren’t breached or privacy rights were violated on a massive scale, by private for profit corporations. Again the corporations have ulterior motives outside of the publics well being, for profit. You don't know what they are contracted for but clearly Microsoft et el have access to software development etc.. on everyone’s home computer or whatever else comes equipped with Microsoft software. On and on you have conflict of interest all the way through this.

Your insistence that these contracts are clean cut and the super users aren't being overwhelmed with requests for information from CIA data bases.. or that these same super users wouldn't be subject in some way to bribery for information to be relinquished to a private for profit company is reckless wishful thinking.

The whole affair is indeed an abomination to democracy in my humble opinion. This entire article will be brushed off in some way or ignored because in truth these private contracts are potential windfalls for the companies involved for an indefinite time should the government continue to privatise the government’s information gathering agencies. They are not more effective then for cost government CIA operatives. They cost more and if you had been paying attention throughout a variety of videos it is clear the main expense is now the private companies that are operating for profit. You blindly claim it is government that has communication problems with no evidence to back the claim up. Clearly getting private companies to comply with operative demands would be much more difficult then a subordinate CIA operative with no other allegiance.

 

[rivrrat]

The white house expressed concern about what information has been accessed. I don't get access to what a corporation is doing in public matters is what your saying? This is wrong.

No, you don't. Not when it's top secret. Private or govt, you're not going to have access. Period.

Your contract arguments are completely a technical argument there is little that anyone can do to prove ether way that contracts weren’t breached or privacy rights were violated on a massive scale, by private for profit corporations. Again the corporations have ulterior motives outside of the publics well being, for profit. You don't know what they are contracted for but clearly Microsoft et el have access to software development etc.. on everyone’s home computer or whatever else comes equipped with Microsoft software. On and on you have conflict of interest all the way through this.

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.

Your insistence that these contracts are clean cut and the super users aren't being overwhelmed with requests for information from CIA data bases..

By whom?

or that these same super users wouldn't be subject in some way to bribery for information to be relinquished to a private for profit company is reckless wishful thinking.

Govt employee or govt contractor alike are subject in some way ot bribery for information. That just goes with the territory having a clearance. But, the screening process for clearances includes mitigating that risk. So, this risk is no different if the person is a govt employee or if the person is a govt contractor.

The whole affair is indeed an abomination to democracy in my humble opinion. This entire article will be brushed off in some way or ignored because in truth these private contracts are potential windfalls for the companies involved for an indefinite time should the government continue to privatise the government’s information gathering agencies. They are not more effective then for cost government CIA operatives. They cost more and if you had been paying attention throughout a variety of videos it is clear the main expense is now the private companies that are operating for profit. You blindly claim it is government that has communication problems with no evidence to back the claim up. Clearly getting private companies to comply with operative demands would be much more difficult then a subordinate CIA operative with no other allegiance.

LMFAO what the hell are you talking about? Private contractors are more expensive? Well no ****ing ****. That goes without saying.

Getting private companies to comply with the demands of their employers is difficult? This is insane. Do you understand how contracting works, at all?

And no, I don't "blindly claim" that govt agencies have a communication problem with each other. That's a pretty well known ****ing fact. This very investigation proves that. It says that they don't know what everyone is doing and that there's redundancy. How the hell do you think that happens? The agencies aren't communicating with one another, that's how. Jesus. You go on and on about this investigative evidence and then say I'm "blindly claiming" something that the very investigation you're talking about prominently displays.

 

[Gabriel]

No, you don't. Not when it's top secret. Private or govt, you're not going to have access. Period.


I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.


By whom?


Govt employee or govt contractor alike are subject in some way ot bribery for information. That just goes with the territory having a clearance. But, the screening process for clearances includes mitigating that risk. So, this risk is no different if the person is a govt employee or if the person is a govt contractor.


LMFAO what the hell are you talking about? Private contractors are more expensive? Well no ****ing ****. That goes without saying.

Getting private companies to comply with the demands of their employers is difficult? This is insane. Do you understand how contracting works, at all?

And no, I don't "blindly claim" that govt agencies have a communication problem with each other. That's a pretty well known ****ing fact. This very investigation proves that. It says that they don't know what everyone is doing and that there's redundancy. How the hell do you think that happens? The agencies aren't communicating with one another, that's how. Jesus. You go on and on about this investigative evidence and then say I'm "blindly claiming" something that the very investigation you're talking about prominently displays.

Well I can honestly say I am done arguing with you on the subject. Your responses ranged from "you don't know" what I'm talking about to "LMFAO". I have provided information on all your responses in the video's presented. You are free to feel the idea's I presented are untrue but you haven't disproved anything. I am not going to let you brow beat me on this I haven't got time. I don't care about these contracts you talk about that are supposed to be so limiting that you have no clue about. If you have a reference by all means link it. Otherwise all you have done is made a simplistic argument regarding contract work that is pretty much a joke in an unregulated environment.

 

[rivrrat]

Well I can honestly say I am done arguing with you on the subject. Your responses ranged from "you don't know" what I'm talking about to "LMFAO". I have provided information on all your responses in the video's presented. You are free to feel the idea's I presented are untrue but you haven't disproved anything. I am not going to let you brow beat me on this I haven't got time. I don't care about these contracts you talk about that are supposed to be so limiting that you have no clue about. If you have a reference by all means link it. Otherwise all you have done is made a simplistic argument regarding contract work that is pretty much a joke in an unregulated environment.

It was pretty obvious from page 1 that you were done. You've presented nothing but speculation and demonstrated nothing but a complete lack of understanding of how contracting works. And, you've yet to be able to counter anything I've said. All you've done is scream "the sky is falling" while running around.

So yeah, you are done.

 

[Gabriel]

It was pretty obvious from page 1 that you were done. You've presented nothing but speculation and demonstrated nothing but a complete lack of understanding of how contracting works. And, you've yet to be able to counter anything I've said. All you've done is scream "the sky is falling" while running around.

So yeah, you are done.

You have these contracts on hand or what they entail? Unregulated contractual work or not might as well be no contract. These corporations should not be doing the CIA's work nor should they have access to their data bank.

No one was screaming. I did more then present speculation I presented a well formulated documentary preview that will be out in a couple months full of more details. As well as some interesting interviews.

It's pretty clear there are a bunch of corporations now that have started doing more work to cover their ass now they have been exposed and its a dam good thing they have been. The feds should begin attrition on this budget and cut the corporate pork barrelling going on there. Find out what is working, emulate it in house and get rid of all private corporations in the CIA. You have stated nothing but a vague argument about contract work and repeated it endlessly as though it means something even though we can't see it or know what the contracts entail. Outside of your contract argument you have no empirical data to back up anything .. you haven’t disproved anything.

 

[Bodi]

Nah, it is creepy. This organization doesn't even know what it does and it is in complete disarray. Who knows what the hell these public employed private companies are doing? They don’t even know what they are doing and expanding rapidly.. This doesn’t bother you? What would if that didn’t?

It is creepy business. End of story and that documentary will be very telling I’m sure.

I know somebody who has "Top Secret" access, consults the military at the Pentagon and works for a private company. He started this well over twenty years ago in the 80's and long before Bush was ever elected. This has been the case for others as well for probably 60 years. So? And they know exactly what they are doing and they do it better than the government, that is why the governmnet hires them for consulting and oversight and such... calm down.

 

[Gabriel]

My dad has "Top Secret" access, Consults the military at the Pentagon and works for a private company. he starte this well over twenty years ago in the 80's and long before Bush was every elected. This has been the case for others as well for probably 60 years. So? And they know exactly what they are doing and they do it better than the government, that is why the governmnet hires them for consulting and oversight and such... calm down.

I think corperations have no place in CIA activities.

Look guys relax all I did was post a documentary and said I dislike integration of corporations into government agencies. If you don't like it well I guess that is tough for you. I don't trust corporations and this trend of paying for private contractors is not worth the money being dumped into the program. It needs to be cut .. badly.

 

[Gabriel]

The secrets next door | washingtonpost.com

 

[BmanMcfly]

No, it's not publicly accessible because it's top secret work.

Publicly accessible was the wrong word... but the top secret work is contracted out to private corporations whose corporate interests in many situations will trump the national interests, and having no public representation to worry about, is an anti-thesis to the republic and its constitution.

The chain of command is the same for govt employees and govt contractors if the orders come from the govt. When I worked as a govt contractor, I worked side by side with govt employees. I answered to the same people they did.

Yes, that may be so, but when something goes wrong, the private contractors have a 'corporate shield'. In that, you might answer to the individual, but since you would be acting on a companies behalf.

If they were running a child slavery ring, then why weren't they prosecuted and jailed?

Well, frankly, because blackwater has the type of clout to be able to say F-U to the system. They were 'prosecuted' by not receiving those contracts for 6 months.

Holy crap. Contract work is fascist now? LOL How ya figure?

Simple, the DEFINITION of fascism is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

So, in other words, fascism is simply the merger of corporate and governmental systems.

While the country may not be fully turned over into a fascist state, this is just another piece of evidence showing how this is happening.

Ask yourself, is government taking full control of the auto industry, the health care industry, and (as of today) the banking system, and now offering unprecedented levels of top secret access to private corporations with PRIVATE interests that do not answer to the public... do you think that this level of control over society is 'for the good of the people'?? Or do you think that maybe, this might be done because Obama and his cronies simply want to take control of society for the good of HIS people??

I know to you it was just a job and a paycheque... but it is what it is, this is the gradual merger of government and corporate structures, contracting out top secret work, which I'm certain includes some intelligence gathering (which may or may not have been any part of YOUR job). With what's been reported about the expansion of the NSA is evidence of that.

Fascism is growing in America. That's why there's record numbers of expatriates.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/us/26expat.html

The Federal Register, the government publication that records such decisions, shows that 502 expatriates gave up their U.S. citizenship or permanent residency status in the last quarter of 2009.

Still, 502 was the largest quarterly figure in years, more than twice the total for all of 2008, and it looms larger, given how agonizing the decision can be. There were 235 renunciations in 2008 and 743 last year.

Don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Gabriel]

[video=google;7914117733846316477]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7914117733846316477#[/video]

 

[BmanMcfly]

And that video is just one facet of what's going on... blackwater is a private army, this spy story is tantamount to a private spy force, the banking industry is now under the whims directly of a branch of the federal reserve (which is a private bank), the health care system has been put under the controls of the private insurance companies... and so on...

There is litterally a corporate - government takeover / merger going on... and it's a bipartisan effort.

 

[Gabriel]

And that video is just one facet of what's going on... blackwater is a private army, this spy story is tantamount to a private spy force, the banking industry is now under the whims directly of a branch of the federal reserve (which is a private bank), the health care system has been put under the controls of the private insurance companies... and so on...

There is litterally a corporate - government takeover / merger going on... and it's a bipartisan effort.

It has been bipartisan.The privatisation and deregulative nature of third party corperations is much in line with libertarian objectives. But something is going on in DC with the Dems that is a little different then the republican party these days. But it just seems like a weak hand.

 

[BmanMcfly]

I know somebody who has "Top Secret" access, consults the military at the Pentagon and works for a private company. He started this well over twenty years ago in the 80's and long before Bush was ever elected. This has been the case for others as well for probably 60 years. So? And they know exactly what they are doing and they do it better than the government, that is why the governmnet hires them for consulting and oversight and such... calm down.

Look, Hitler didn't just show up and get elected to a democracy and switch it into full blown fascist kill-grid overnight. It was the results of the leaders before him setting up laws that all 'sounded good' and were, in all likelihood, well intentioned ideas. Then Hitler came along, and all that was left was to burn down his reichstag, and the rest is history. Oh, also comparable now is how things got really evil as a means of pulling themselves out of the great depression,

I'm just hoping that this depression isn't going to be solved by having half the people build the weapons so the other half can go fight the war.... which you also have to remember how US and Israeli ships have nuclear armed warships just offshore from Iran, and Obama, our peace prize winning president has signed onto a blockade of the country, which IS an act of war on its face.

To finish off the definition of fascism, I could link to you the calls for the president to "act like a dictator".

Then, suppressing opposition is accomplished mostly by having cronies toss around the race card...

Meanwhile, the only thing missing is the 'aggressive nationalism', in another thread I linked to, I believe he was Clinton's advisor, Shapiro, who said that to solve Obama's credibility crisis he would have to find a way to be seen as a "strong leader", and in order to accomplish this would require "something big like an Oklahoma city bombing or a new 9-11'
(financial times of london)

So, the country is literally spitting distance from converting to fascism.

 

[BmanMcfly]

It has been bipartisan.The privatisation and deregulative nature of third party corperations is much in line with libertarian objectives. But something is going on in DC with the Dems that is a little different then the republican party these days. But it just seems like a weak hand.

Libertarian objectives??? I can agree with everything else except those 2 words... how are you defining libertarian, cause as far as I know, there's no libertarians in power... at least from how I call libertarian.

The only difference now between the Dems and republicans is that the republicans are out of power now, so it's the left hand of the big government party pulling the strings.

 

[Gabriel]

Libertarian objectives??? I can agree with everything else except those 2 words... how are you defining libertarian, cause as far as I know, there's no libertarians in power... at least from how I call libertarian.

The only difference now between the Dems and republicans is that the republicans are out of power now, so it's the left hand of the big government party pulling the strings.

Yes privatization of the government.

 

[Gray_Fox_86]

Look, Hitler didn't just show up and get elected to a democracy and switch it into full blown fascist kill-grid overnight. It was the results of the leaders before him setting up laws that all 'sounded good' and were, in all likelihood, well intentioned ideas. Then Hitler came along, and all that was left was to burn down his reichstag, and the rest is history. Oh, also comparable now is how things got really evil as a means of pulling themselves out of the great depression,

I'm just hoping that this depression isn't going to be solved by having half the people build the weapons so the other half can go fight the war.... which you also have to remember how US and Israeli ships have nuclear armed warships just offshore from Iran, and Obama, our peace prize winning president has signed onto a blockade of the country, which IS an act of war on its face.

To finish off the definition of fascism, I could link to you the calls for the president to "act like a dictator".

Then, suppressing opposition is accomplished mostly by having cronies toss around the race card...

Meanwhile, the only thing missing is the 'aggressive nationalism', in another thread I linked to, I believe he was Clinton's advisor, Shapiro, who said that to solve Obama's credibility crisis he would have to find a way to be seen as a "strong leader", and in order to accomplish this would require "something big like an Oklahoma city bombing or a new 9-11'
(financial times of london)

So, the country is literally spitting distance from converting to fascism.

Uh, don't bother trying to compare Hitler and the Nazis with this "top secret" government. The fact is that the Nazis has the Enabling Act passed which gave them extraordinary power and the fact that most of the conservatives who were nobles believed he would be a puppet. So they backed him up. A completely different scenario from Hitler and the Nazis with this "top secret" government.
Also if this "top secret" government was so top secret. Then why do we know so much on them? This top secret government is seriously not doing a good job remaining secret. What has been said before I will say it again. 890,000 people with top secret clearences means that the majority of these people do not do something cool like agent mulder from the x files.

 

[winston53660]

Also if this "top secret" government was so top secret. Then why do we know so much on them? This top secret government is seriously not doing a good job remaining secret..

If they told you they would have to kill you:2razz:

 

[rivrrat]

Publicly accessible was the wrong word... but the top secret work is contracted out to private corporations whose corporate interests in many situations will trump the national interests, and having no public representation to worry about, is an anti-thesis to the republic and its constitution.

In the case of a company doing govt contract work, their corporate interests ARE the interests of the govt. Otherwise, they don't get the contracts. I mean seriously, if you hire a contractor to work on your home, are you going to sit there and tell me that their interests are only to themselves and not to you? YOU are their boss. Either they do what you want, or they don't get paid. Or, if they **** up, they don't get any more contracts. They don't just come into your home and do whatever the **** they want simply because they're a private company. You hired them. You control them, or else they are not longer in your employ. If a private company wants to make money doing govt contracts, they do what they're told in the manner they are told to do it.

Yes, that may be so, but when something goes wrong, the private contractors have a 'corporate shield'. In that, you might answer to the individual, but since you would be acting on a companies behalf.

LOL Bull****. They do something wrong, they either get fired or pulled off the contract.

Well, frankly, because blackwater has the type of clout to be able to say F-U to the system. They were 'prosecuted' by not receiving those contracts for 6 months.

So they weren't convicted of anything? Why were they punished at all then? If there wasn't sufficient evidence that they did anything wrong, I see no reason they lost a contract for 6 months at all.

Simple, the DEFINITION of fascism is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

So, in other words, fascism is simply the merger of corporate and governmental systems.

So in other words, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We don't have a dictator, we don't have suppression of opposition and criticism, and we don't have a govt regimenting ALL industry, commerce, etc. So what we have is nothing even remotely akin to fascism.

While the country may not be fully turned over into a fascist state, this is just another piece of evidence showing how this is happening.

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. Hiring contractors isn't fascist.

Ask yourself, is government taking full control of the auto industry, the health care industry, and (as of today) the banking system, and now offering unprecedented levels of top secret access to private corporations with PRIVATE interests that do not answer to the public... do you think that this level of control over society is 'for the good of the people'?? Or do you think that maybe, this might be done because Obama and his cronies simply want to take control of society for the good of HIS people??

So it's Obama's fault that this top secret contract work has been going on for half a century?

Hey look, I completely agree that we shouldn't have bailed out the car industry or the banks. 100% agree. But that's a totally separate issue.

I know to you it was just a job and a paycheque... but it is what it is, this is the gradual merger of government and corporate structures, contracting out top secret work, which I'm certain includes some intelligence gathering (which may or may not have been any part of YOUR job). With what's been reported about the expansion of the NSA is evidence of that.

Of course there's intelligence gathering that may or may not have been part of MY jobs with the govt. But it's not a merger in the slightest. I've yet to have anyone show me the difference between a govt employee with top secret clearance doing intelligence work and a govt contractor with a top secret clearance doing intelligence work with the govt employees and at the behest of other govt employees. The only difference is who signs the paychecks, the money comes from the same source, the direction comes from the same source.

Fascism is growing in America. That's why there's record numbers of expatriates.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/us/26expat.html


Don't say you weren't warned.

LMFAO Warned about *what*?

 

[Gabriel]

I do think the mass integration of corporate America with the State is fascist. Social factors and other matters are in effect that make the outcome of that marriage different then say what happened in Italy. History does not repeat itself.. exactly. So simply because it shares that characteristic with fascism it doesn't mean outcomes will be identical but I would argue it is a powerful indicator and trend.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Uh, don't bother trying to compare Hitler and the Nazis with this "top secret" government. The fact is that the Nazis has the Enabling Act passed which gave them extraordinary power and the fact that most of the conservatives who were nobles believed he would be a puppet. So they backed him up. A completely different scenario from Hitler and the Nazis with this "top secret" government.

I made the analogy more because the national socialists is the most well known historical example of recent fascism...

Also if this "top secret" government was so top secret. Then why do we know so much on them? This top secret government is seriously not doing a good job remaining secret. What has been said before I will say it again. 890,000 people with top secret clearences means that the majority of these people do not do something cool like agent mulder from the x files.

Because some journalists spent some time researching and doing the footwork to find out about this... for the most part, america is still a free country, so things like FOIA can still be used to look into what government is doing.

As for what they are doing, well, it's top secret work, so at best would be speculating as to what precisely is going on, but it does beg the question as to how there is a need for close to a million people involved.

In the case of a company doing govt contract work, their corporate interests ARE the interests of the govt. Otherwise, they don't get the contracts. I mean seriously, if you hire a contractor to work on your home, are you going to sit there and tell me that their interests are only to themselves and not to you? YOU are their boss. Either they do what you want, or they don't get paid. Or, if they **** up, they don't get any more contracts. They don't just come into your home and do whatever the **** they want simply because they're a private company. You hired them. You control them, or else they are not longer in your employ. If a private company wants to make money doing govt contracts, they do what they're told in the manner they are told to do it.

You're not getting my point on this. Your talking about the specific work, I'm talking about the liability issues.

LOL Bull****. They do something wrong, they either get fired or pulled off the contract.

You would think so, but looking through Blackwater's, as the prime example, history, you'll see that while you SHOULD be right, in practice you are wrong.

So they weren't convicted of anything?

No, the charges were not laid in a criminal court.

Why were they punished at all then?

Would you ask that question if it was your wife / sister / daughter that was the victim?

If there wasn't sufficient evidence that they did anything wrong, I see no reason they lost a contract for 6 months at all.

The problem is that they are for all intents above the law.
(This video is from a more recent example of this continuing)
YouTube - Iraq - Blackwater pimped out young Iraqi girls MSNBC

So in other words, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We don't have a dictator,

This one is true... though there are many who have been calling for Obama to 'act like a dictator'.

we don't have suppression of opposition and criticism,

Ummm... weren't you paying attention for the whole 6 month period where opposition and criticism of Obama was equated to racism??

and we don't have a govt regimenting ALL industry, commerce, etc. So what we have is nothing even remotely akin to fascism.

ALL is the keyword in that... it's not ALL yet, this can't be done all in one step or the people might actually rise up... so, this is being done one step at a time.

First was the automotive industry.
Next was health care
followed now with the banking industry.
now with the corporatization of top secret jobs, that's the next step... what will follow after, I don't know...

This is a PROCESS... and it is fascist in its intention. Simply, the merger of corporate and government worlds IS fascism.

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. Hiring contractors isn't fascist.

If this private contractors are doing government work, then YES... by definition it is a fascist move.

So it's Obama's fault that this top secret contract work has been going on for half a century?

This isn't about Obama, Clinton, Bush, or the next puppet they line up in front of us like it makes a difference.

No, this isn't Obama's 'fault'... this has been a process that's been going on for a half a century... if not longer.

Hell, I could even find the quotes from those in positions of influence who were talking about Hilter and the germans as 'them beating us at our own game'. Or look at operation paperclip, how the top nazi scientists were shipped over to avoid trial at nuremburg.

The deal is that Hitler failed in his ideas of eugenics because he went about it too quickly, and even his generals started doubting him and seeing how he was going to destroy germany... instead, the americans that are alligned with Hitlers ideals had come to the conclusion after the war that those policies had to be implemented gradually, and through incremental steps it's like the frog boiling slowly in water, by the time it realizes that the water is boiling it's already cooked.

Hey look, I completely agree that we shouldn't have bailed out the car industry or the banks. 100% agree. But that's a totally separate issue.

No, this issue is an EXTENSION of those issues.

Of course there's intelligence gathering that may or may not have been part of MY jobs with the govt. But it's not a merger in the slightest. I've yet to have anyone show me the difference between a govt employee with top secret clearance doing intelligence work and a govt contractor with a top secret clearance doing intelligence work with the govt employees and at the behest of other govt employees. The only difference is who signs the paychecks, the money comes from the same source, the direction comes from the same source.

I wouldn't expect you to divulge top secret information... I don't want to see anyone imprisoned for something stupid like that.

The difference is ultimately in the legal loopholes that it creates... and even though there's ultimately levels of top secret clearance, that getting a top secret clearance without necessarily taking the oath to the constitution. Different liability concerns, it creates a potential firewall in cases of prosecution of criminal activities, etc.

Right now, it's just a job...

off the top of my head, if it's for example a google contract with the US government that's got the contract for top secret NSA work, then you're probably doing a certain task, or supervising others doing a certain task.

Google has work :
- With the white vans that make the 'street view' for google earth; without mentioning that they are also 'mapping' the internet and all your home network wireless connections.
- they have a very potent data analyzing capacity, that apparently boasts about 90% of both group and / or individual movements
- potentially the 'manning' of echelon data capture systems that will flag keywords or phrases to be viewed by someone to see if it is important enough to respond to
- Google has on multiple occasions been caught censoring certain topics

More or less the system being put in place once complete to absolutely dwarf the capacity of german stazi force in WW2 era. Don't think about today, think about what you're doing in terms of what might happen if a bloodthirsty tyrant manages to take the helm of the presidency.

LMFAO Warned about *what*?

The world you are about to take your part in creating is going to be a nightmare for ALL of us.... maybe 5 years ago, I would have said a nightmare for your children or grandchildren, but more and more it's looking like we'll all find out.

It's going to kick off at one of 3 signs (The culmination of sources is available if NEEDED, as in you'll browse through them without quick dismissal) :
- A collapse of the dollar - Gerald Celente
- a terrorist attack of a scale of 9-11 or greater - Gerald Celente
- a hurricane blowing oil from the gulf deep into the coastal areas (forcing evacuation orders) - Suggestions of a CFR member, whom I can't think of his name, but can find the source if needed
- a combination of the three.

Gerald Celente owns Trends Forecasting Inc... he's got a track record of accuracy for many years.

You'll know what your job is REALLY about when it starts.

 

[lizzie]

Nah, it is creepy. This organization doesn't even know what it does and it is in complete disarray. Who knows what the hell these public employed private companies are doing? They don’t even know what they are doing and expanding rapidly.. This doesn’t bother you? What would if that didn’t?

It is creepy business. End of story and that documentary will be very telling I’m sure.

says the guy who accuses libertarians of being scared of government.

 

[Gabriel]

says the guy who accuses libertarians of being scared of government.

No I understand you guys prefer corperate governance as opposed to have representation in your elected government. God forbid people have something like a public option in healthcare.