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Tolls - billing VS paying-at-the-booth

Aunt Spiker

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.
 

dimensionallava

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.

Compared too the cost of hiring a manned toll both operator its substantially less expensive, especially since alot of people use the same road everyday and will only receive a bill once a month (not with every usage). Also having to slow down and look for correct change, and paying the operator impedes traffiic which adds to cost of the roads. It also eliminates the problem of people not having money when they reach a toll booth, which happens quite often, especially at bridges with high tolls like some in New York that can cost $16 to cross. If you dont have enough money your required you too give the toll booth operator your license and registration, and pull over to the side of the road, sit and fill out forms.

Its much easier just to take a snapshot of everyone's license plate
 
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Chomsky

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.
Ah, but when that $1.25 bill never gets received, misplaced, forgotten about, or ignored - the late fees and fines will be high enough to be an important stream of revenue and worth the collection effort (with collection efforts further increasing profit)!

My state's 30 cent toll becomes 30 bucks when in collection! And when your license gets suspended, there's even more fees to be paid and get it reinstated.

This is a highly profitable business model!
 

dimensionallava

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Ah, but when that $1.25 bill never gets received, misplaced, forgotten about, or ignored - the late fees and fines will be high enough to be an important stream of revenue and worth the collection effort (with collection efforts further increasing profit)!

My state's 30 cent toll becomes 30 bucks when in collection! And when your license gets suspended, there's even more fees to be paid and get it reinstated.

This is a highly profitable business model!

maybe your state should pay for its roads with tax dollars instead?
 

MaggieD

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.

$1.25 seems ridiculous, although I imderstand Dimensional's point vs manned booths. Interesting they dont take Illinois' approach. They also slueth, but they put the onus on the driver to go online and pay up. Signs with the amount and web address abound. That system is used on our latest tollroads -- for those who dont subscribe to cashless tolls. The toll is doubled for nonsubscribers. On the older ones, drivers can either get in a long line to pay or subscribe to cashless which gives you a gadget for your windshield that automatically dedits your tollway account...which is automatically replenished by your registered credit card.

I have a feeling NOBODY is going to understand what I wrote. Ha!
 

Northern Light

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My beef with automatic tolls is that I live in a district where I can loan my car to anyone with a driver's license, like a friend or relative. If they decide to take a route that goes through a toll, I have to foot the bill and there's no guarantee they'll be around to give me that money. Kind of awkward to approach a friend and say, "Hey, remember that trip you took a few weeks ago with my car? Mind paying these tolls?" At least with toll booths, the actual driver is paying, whoever they may be. Done and done.

But then, toll booths slow traffic, and in some areas they are using tolls to pay for express ways whose entire purpose is to give people the option of taking a faster route. I was in a major city a few weeks ago and rush our was a nightmare. Can't imagine what it would be like if people had to stop to pay a toll operator.

Tolled roads just suck, no matter what way you look at it.
 

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Ah, but when that $1.25 bill never gets received, misplaced, forgotten about, or ignored - the late fees and fines will be high enough to be an important stream of revenue and worth the collection effort (with collection efforts further increasing profit)!

My state's 30 cent toll becomes 30 bucks when in collection! And when your license gets suspended, there's even more fees to be paid and get it reinstated.

This is a highly profitable business model!

Been there, done that with our daughters.
 

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Compared too the cost of hiring a manned toll both operator its substantially less expensive, especially since alot of people use the same road everyday and will only receive a bill once a month (not with every usage). Also having to slow down and look for correct change, and paying the operator impedes traffiic which adds to cost of the roads. It also eliminates the problem of people not having money when they reach a toll booth, which happens quite often, especially at bridges with high tolls like some in New York that can cost $16 to cross. If you dont have enough money your required you too give the toll booth operator your license and registration, and pull over to the side of the road, sit and fill out forms.

Its much easier just to take a snapshot of everyone's license plate

I'm beside myself that I actually agree with something that you posted.
 

SocialD

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Ah, but when that $1.25 bill never gets received, misplaced, forgotten about, or ignored - the late fees and fines will be high enough to be an important stream of revenue and worth the collection effort (with collection efforts further increasing profit)!

My state's 30 cent toll becomes 30 bucks when in collection! And when your license gets suspended, there's even more fees to be paid and get it reinstated.

This is a highly profitable business model!

I would guess there are secondary things quite possible here too... does the system run the plates for warrants or stolen cars and notify the police perhaps....?
 

Casper

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.

With Toll tags I pay less that at a booth, and pay more than twice than your trip, every day. That said do not get me started on Tollways, a scam if there ever was one.
 

dimensionallava

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Maybe my state should quit giving out million dollar pensions to street sweepers with 20 years in ...
you would prefer they give that money to the top 1%?

You cant have it both ways you can either pay higher taxes or pay high tolls, and deal with hassles from fines and license suspensions. seems like a waste of resources to have a toll booth in first place, just so a few people can avoid paying their fair share for them, everyone benefits from those roads and bridges regardless if they ever use them or not.
 

Chomsky

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you would prefer they give that money to the top 1%?

You cant have it both ways you can either pay higher taxes or pay high tolls, and deal with hassles from fines and license suspensions. seems like a waste of resources to have a toll booth in first place, just so a few people can avoid paying their fair share for them, everyone benefits from those roads and bridges regardless if they ever use them or not.
I would prefer our civil servants' pay scales and benefits be less generous, and more inline with the private sector.

I see no reason to pay unskilled laborers 45 bucks an hour with superior benefits and true million dollar pensions, supplied by taxpaying laborers working for not much over minimum with no bennies or pension.

So yeah - I expect public service to not be more lucrative than most citizen's employment, but to be ... service!
 

dimensionallava

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I would prefer our civil servants' pay scales and benefits be less generous, and more inline with the private sector.

I see no reason to pay unskilled laborers 45 bucks an hour with superior benefits and true million dollar pensions, supplied by taxpaying laborers working for not much over minimum with no bennies or pension.

So yeah - I expect public service to not be more lucrative than most citizen's employment, but to be ... service!

i dont think any streetsweepers make 45 bucks an hour or get million dollar pensions, sounds like neoliberal propaganda too me, also im not sure if your aware of this but civil servants also pay taxes. we could eliminate the "private sector" completely and we would still have a tax system
 

Chomsky

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i dont think any streetsweepers make 45 bucks an hour or get million dollar pensions, sounds like neoliberal propaganda too me, also im not sure if your aware of this but civil servants also pay taxes. we could eliminate the "private sector" completely and we would still have a tax system
No, it sounds like the city of Chicago to me - home of six-figure laborers with million dollar pensions. I know some of these individuals personally. Dismissing my statements as "neo-liberal propaganda" is a bit disingenuous, especially when you're ignorant of the facts.

You may have general points to make, but you're wrong in dismissing my specific claim here.
 

dimensionallava

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No, it sounds like the city of Chicago to me - home of six-figure laborers with million dollar pensions. I know some of these individuals personally. Dismissing my statements as "neo-liberal propaganda" is a bit disingenuous, especially when you're ignorant of the facts.

You may have general points to make, but you're wrong in dismissing my specific claim here.

I dont think the mafia runs the labor unions anymore lol, you cannot take a handful of anecdotal stories about government corruption and use them to invalidate the idea of having a government at all, also there are several jobs that would be considered "labor" jobs that deserve 6 figures and more, elevator mechanics, antenna repairmen, many specialist labor positions require more years in school to get certificates than a doctor or a lawyer need to get a degree

If you want too build a road, then the government can build it. The fantasy idea that governments are by default corrupt, and that some corporation will come in and somehow magically solve all of our problems combined with this demonization of public workers, the idea that their labor is by default less valuable than their private sector counterparts, that they are quite literally their "servants" is the textbook definition of neo liberalism. The reaganomical idea that just by privatizing public services even roads and bridges is why America's infrastructure (as well as a number of other things) have fallen apart over the last 30 years

 

Chomsky

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I dont think the mafia runs the labor unions anymore lol, you cannot take a handful of anecdotal stories about government corruption and use them to invalidate the idea of having a government at all, also there are several jobs that would be considered "labor" jobs that deserve 6 figures and more, elevator mechanics, antenna repairmen, many specialist labor positions require more years in school to get certificates than a doctor or a lawyer need to get a degree

If you want too build a road, then the government can build it. The fantasy idea that governments are by default corrupt, and that some corporation will come in and somehow magically solve all of our problems combined with this demonization of public workers, the idea that their labor is by default less valuable than their private sector counterparts, that they are quite literally their "servants" is the textbook definition of neo liberalism. The reaganomical idea that just by privatizing public services even roads and bridges is why America's infrastructure (as well as a number of other things) have fallen apart over the last 30 years

What the hell are ranting away about, here?

You're not even close to be on-topic with my posts.

Let's get specific:

Unskilled laborers (think the guys that dig ditches, carry pipes, haul stuff around a work site, sweep and clean-up, etc.) get nearly 45 bucks an hour. And being utility persons, they make up a substantial amount of the workforce. They get time-and-a-half over 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week, and double-time over 10 hours a day or 48 hours a week. They get 14 paid holidays, and if they work a holiday they get paid double-time.

Due to the nature of their work, there's virtually always some weekly overtime; consequently, they are doing a little over six figures. Even just straight-time puts them pushing six-figures!

After 10 years they are pension eligible and vested at 50% of their last worked year's salary. At 20 years, they're considered fully vested at 80% of salary. They get a minimal 1/2% addition for each year past 20 to the max of 85% at 30 years. This pension is for life along with the medical benefits, and gets an annual COLA allowance of around 2.5%, though this last item varies.

Even at a minimum 50% 10 year service pension, a laborer gets 50k a year plus COLA raises, and will pull-out a million plus in cash alone (plus additional medical benefits) if he lives the average U.S. lifespan. If he dies, his wife gets the pension (at half rate) until she dies.

The laborers are generally the lowest level wages of working labor, with the skilled trades going into the low to mid 50's (an hour), though for some reason the truck drivers are a little under the laborers' rate even though they are well represented by the teamsters.

The streetsweepers we discussed earlier are actually classified as operating engineers at 55 an hour!

So please tell me again why the city's civil servants need six-figure salaries with million dollar pensions and extraordinary benefits, as the city and state go broke with these pensions and the struggling taxpayer can't cough-up any more in property taxes?

I would really like to know why you believe government employees should be compensated much more than the working taxpayers doing the same work in private industry?

(I'll view the Chomsky video in a bit - thank you for posting it)
 

dimensionallava

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Unskilled laborers (think the guys that dig ditches, carry pipes, haul stuff around a work site, sweep and clean-up, etc.) get nearly 45 bucks an hour. And being utility persons, they make up a substantial amount of the workforce. They get time-and-a-half over 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week, and double-time over 10 hours a day or 48 hours a week. They get 14 paid holidays, and if they work a holiday they get paid double-time.

Due to the nature of their work, there's virtually always some weekly overtime; consequently, they are doing a little over six figures. Even just straight-time puts them pushing six-figures!
do you have any sources for this? of ditch diggers in chicago making 6 figures a year (this decade preferably)

After 10 years they are pension eligible and vested at 50% of their last worked year's salary. At 20 years, they're considered fully vested at 80% of salary. They get a minimal 1/2% addition for each year past 20 to the max of 85% at 30 years. This pension is for life along with the medical benefits, and gets an annual COLA allowance of around 2.5%, though this last item varies.

Even at a minimum 50% 10 year service pension, a laborer gets 50k a year plus COLA raises, and will pull-out a million plus in cash alone (plus additional medical benefits) if he lives the average U.S. lifespan. If he dies, his wife gets the pension (at half rate) until she dies.
thanks for the education on the pension system but those would still assume a $45 an hour salary right?

The laborers are generally the lowest level wages of working labor, with the skilled trades going into the low to mid 50's (an hour), though for some reason the truck drivers are a little under the laborers' rate even though they are well represented by the teamsters.

The streetsweepers we discussed earlier are actually classified as operating engineers at 55 an hour!

streetsweeper operators on average make $13.87 per hour the highest paid make around $26 per hour, and the starting slaries are around $9 per hour

A Streetsweeper Operator earns an average wage of $13.87 per hour. People in this job generally don't have more than 20 years' experience.

Streetsweeper Operator Salary

https://www.salaryexpert.com/salarysurveydata/job=street-sweeper-operator/salary

So please tell me again why the city's civil servants need six-figure salaries with million dollar pensions and extraordinary benefits, as the city and state go broke with these pensions and the struggling taxpayer can't cough-up any more in property taxes?

I would really like to know why you believe government employees should be compensated much more than the working taxpayers doing the same work in private industry?
theyre should not be a private sector at all, if there is it should be limited to luxury items and industries that nobody needs, also its a known fact that the public sector pays less in salary in exchange for more benefits.

“You can make those numbers say anything you want,” Neal said. He wrote about the issue last week on his blog, ChiefHRO.com.

“This is a great example of using numbers to make a point, but selectively using those numbers,” said Neal, who led the personnel department at the Defense Logistics Agency for nine years before going to DHS and retiring from the agency in 2012. He called the numbers from the Bureau of Economic Analysis cited by Cato’s director of tax policy, Chris Edwards, “generally accurate, but not true.”

[Federal vs. private-sector pay: No comparison is definitive]

What does this mean? Neal makes the case that it is irresponsible to compare the average salary for the entire American workforce with the average salary of the federal workforce, which skews higher because civil servants tend to be professionals. Millions of low-wage jobs, such as flipping burgers at McDonald’s and answering phones at a call center, tend not to be represented in government.

“They put all those folks together,” Neal said of the Cato study, “and compare them with a workforce of policy analysts and scientists in high-skilled jobs. They end up with a conclusion based on nothing remotely close to an apples-and-apples comparison.” Add to that the fact that these professionals tend to make less in government than they could at private companies, and the comparison gets murkier still.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rivate-sector-so-lets-stop-acting-like-we-do/
 

radcen

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.
Are you saying that there was no cash lane option at the GGB and they just scanned your license plate and mailed you a bill?

Asking because I haven't crossed the GGB in 10 years now, but last time I did they still had a cash lane option, though I understand a lot may have changed in 10 years.
 

radcen

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My beef with automatic tolls is that I live in a district where I can loan my car to anyone with a driver's license, like a friend or relative. If they decide to take a route that goes through a toll, I have to foot the bill and there's no guarantee they'll be around to give me that money. Kind of awkward to approach a friend and say, "Hey, remember that trip you took a few weeks ago with my car? Mind paying these tolls?" At least with toll booths, the actual driver is paying, whoever they may be. Done and done.

But then, toll booths slow traffic, and in some areas they are using tolls to pay for express ways whose entire purpose is to give people the option of taking a faster route. I was in a major city a few weeks ago and rush our was a nightmare. Can't imagine what it would be like if people had to stop to pay a toll operator.

Tolled roads just suck, no matter what way you look at it.
Do you feel the same regarding speed and red light cameras? The way most are set up, the actual driver may not be responsible at all.

And I agree that toll roads suck, no matter what.
 

Gaius46

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So on a recent trip to the West Coast, we went through a lot of toll roads. Two places (Denver, Co and The Golden Gate Bridge in Ca) opted out of a manned booth and instead sleuth and bill you based on your car's registration - sending you a bill in the mail.

A bill for $1.25 and another for $7.25.

I sort of get doing it this way for TGGB in California - and the $7.25 seems to cover the cost of the entire mail-based system.
But billing for $1.25? Is that actually monetarily feasible? Seems like they'd spend so much on the entire look-up-mail-out system that they wouldn't bring in any actual money via toll.

Since they have to install the hardware and write the code anyway the marginal cost of collecting the information for that $1.25 toll is a few cents at most. Cost of mailing the bill is also probably a few cents. Much cheaper than having someone manually deal with it, even when you factor in the people who'll skip out on paying the bill.
 

Manc Skipper

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$1.25 seems ridiculous, although I imderstand Dimensional's point vs manned booths. Interesting they dont take Illinois' approach. They also slueth, but they put the onus on the driver to go online and pay up. Signs with the amount and web address abound. That system is used on our latest tollroads -- for those who dont subscribe to cashless tolls. The toll is doubled for nonsubscribers. On the older ones, drivers can either get in a long line to pay or subscribe to cashless which gives you a gadget for your windshield that automatically dedits your tollway account...which is automatically replenished by your registered credit card.

I have a feeling NOBODY is going to understand what I wrote. Ha!

I Did! I was going to ask if there wasn't a system like the French autoroutes have, where a gadget logs you in and out of the system automatically and charges your card. The Autoroutes are lovely, but hellish expensive. Better to potter along and see more on ordinary roads.

https://driveeuropenews.com/2013/03...nt-tag-twenty-thousand-uk-motorists-think-so/
 

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My beef with automatic tolls is that I live in a district where I can loan my car to anyone with a driver's license, like a friend or relative. If they decide to take a route that goes through a toll, I have to foot the bill and there's no guarantee they'll be around to give me that money. Kind of awkward to approach a friend and say, "Hey, remember that trip you took a few weeks ago with my car? Mind paying these tolls?" At least with toll booths, the actual driver is paying, whoever they may be. Done and done.

But then, toll booths slow traffic, and in some areas they are using tolls to pay for express ways whose entire purpose is to give people the option of taking a faster route. I was in a major city a few weeks ago and rush our was a nightmare. Can't imagine what it would be like if people had to stop to pay a toll operator.

Tolled roads just suck, no matter what way you look at it.

Welcome to letting your kid borrow your car to visit his sister in Seattle, lol. He apparently took the same toll road twice (same day, coming and going), I got a bill and paid it, got another bill and assumed it was a cross in the mail type of thing. Boy do they get aggressive when you don't pay right away and I don't even live in Washington State.
 
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