Tofu - do you eat it? How do you prepare it?

[Orion]

I think a better term would be a protein compromise. We are designed to eat meat in order to thrive.

We were designed to eat both, sure, but it doesn't mean we have to do so in the modern world. We are a species at the apex of the food chain and we have the intelligence to change our lifestyles. The claim that vegetarianism is unnatural is tired and cliche at this point. Vegetarianism pre-dates the modern world. Look at India, one of the oldest civilizations on earth.

It's a compromise to the natural order. plain and simple.

I think if the world ended tomorrow and we had to rely on the wilderness for food again combined with limited, local agriculture, I agree that we would see most if not all people eating meat again. But that's not the reality. Our system allows for vegetarianism and veganism if one chooses, and it can be done wonderfully.

Actually I was simply correcting your claim about the order of what has more fat.

Thanks.

Actually you can't. I can give you chicken that is far less healthy than a piece of beef or pork.

I'm sure you can, and I would believe you, but statistics have to make broad generalizations so that we can have some understanding of our world. You're lucky to be talking to someone who thinks the anecdotal is just as important as the statistical.

Take this to the logical conclusion.

The logical conclusion where you make a statement on my behalf and then claim what I meant? That sounds more like an assumption to me, and you know what they say about assumptions. :mrgreen:

Pescatarians actually live longer than vegetarians, vegans, or meat eaters. It's because their unsaturated fat intake is much higher than saturated, which is why I said that if you can reduce meat, and more specifically your saturated fat content, it will increase longevity. There are plenty of long-term studies that verify this. Heck, it's even mainstream knowledge now. Excess saturated fat increases your risk for heart disease and stroke quite a bit.

It is far harder to get this "balanced" diet with not eating meat, as not doing what is natural, is anything but "balanced."

From my personal standpoint, based on my own constitution, I agree with you. I found not eating meat to be a difficult lifestyle. But I can't make that claim for everyone. And I refuse to acquiesce to the notion that eating meat = natural = better. My mother, for practically her whole life, has rarely eaten meat. She grew up in a very traditional coastal setting where meat and fish were abundant, but her inclination (not due to politics or her family) was to not eat much. I think it's perfectly natural for some people to be averse to meat eating.

I really don't appreciate vegetarians OR meat eaters making vast claims on everyone's behalf.

link?

Google?

I'll take this as a concession on your part.

Don't start.

 

[rivrrat]

Just a few articles on how saturated fat isn't as bad as folks think it is. Some of the links are blogs, yes, but they reference studies done and give those references IIRC

7 Reasons to Eat More Saturated Fat
NEJM -- Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet
Saturated Fat is Good for You - by Uffe Ravnskov MD - Part 1
Postbulletin.com: Rochester, MN
Arch Intern Med -- A Systematic Review of the Evidence Supporting a Causal Link Between Dietary Factors and Coronary Heart Disease, April 13, 2009, Mente et al. 169 (7): 659
Good News on Saturated Fat - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com

And honestly, the more I read on it, the I'm inclined to lean towards a very high protein/high fat (read: meat) diet and cut carbs down to absolute minimum. Ala adkins, I guess.

 

[Orion]

Just a few articles on how saturated fat isn't as bad as folks think it is. Some of the links are blogs, yes, but they reference studies done and give those references IIRC

7 Reasons to Eat More Saturated Fat
NEJM -- Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet
Saturated Fat is Good for You - by Uffe Ravnskov MD - Part 1
Postbulletin.com: Rochester, MN
Arch Intern Med -- A Systematic Review of the Evidence Supporting a Causal Link Between Dietary Factors and Coronary Heart Disease, April 13, 2009, Mente et al. 169 (7): 659
Good News on Saturated Fat - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com

And honestly, the more I read on it, the I'm inclined to lean towards a very high protein/high fat (read: meat) diet and cut carbs down to absolute minimum. Ala adkins, I guess.

I've heard really good things about the mediterranean diet.

I don't think saturated fat can out beat unsaturated fat though. Saturated fat can be used by your body for energy if you have a high metabolism or are engaged in heavy bodily activity. If you live a sedentary lifestyle then saturated fat is not going to bring you benefits.

 

[Tucker Case]

Good point.

Her baby is at the stage where she's starting to eat some solids, but if you follow the path of the nutrients back to the mother (who is vegan), the mother needs to be balanced in order for her breast milk to be nutritious and loaded in B vitamins. If a vegan lifestyle were bad for the baby then the baby would already be showing deficiencies because the breast milk would be inadequate.

She'd have to be taking some vitamin supplements, I'd wager, in order to have all of the necessary nutrients present.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

We were designed to eat both, sure, but it doesn't mean we have to do so in the modern world. We are a species at the apex of the food chain and we have the intelligence to change our lifestyles. The claim that vegetarianism is unnatural is tired and cliche at this point. Vegetarianism pre-dates the modern world. Look at India, one of the oldest civilizations on earth.

Yes look at India.... tandori chicken, vindaloo, yummy....

I think if the world ended tomorrow and we had to rely on the wilderness for food again combined with limited, local agriculture, I agree that we would see most if not all people eating meat again. But that's not the reality. Our system allows for vegetarianism and veganism if one chooses, and it can be done wonderfully.

I'll argue that the imaginary world where your very life and choices of an unnatural diet relies on the production of plants and the abstaining from ones natural composition that is of an omnivore is a surrender to the whims of society...

If said apocolypse happened. Most of these "vegans" would be dead in a few weeks due to a lack of enzymes needed to break down meat.

I'm sure you can, and I would believe you, but statistics have to make broad generalizations so that we can have some understanding of our world. You're lucky to be talking to someone who thinks the anecdotal is just as important as the statistical.

Not anectdotal but researchable fact. Pork tenderloin vs skinless chiken thigh. :shrug:

The logical conclusion where you make a statement on my behalf and then claim what I meant? That sounds more like an assumption to me, and you know what they say about assumptions. :mrgreen:

No its the logical conclusion to your statement. If we reduce meat and replace it with tofu, why not eliminate all meat for tofu, since you claim if i am not mistaken is a complete protien.

Pescatarians actually live longer than vegetarians, vegans, or meat eaters. It's because their unsaturated fat intake is much higher than saturated, which is why I said that if you can reduce meat, and more specifically your saturated fat content, it will increase longevity. There are plenty of long-term studies that verify this. Heck, it's even mainstream knowledge now. Excess saturated fat increases your risk for heart disease and stroke quite a bit.

EXCESS.....EXCESS.... key words my friend.

Too much soy will kill you. :shrug:

From my personal standpoint, based on my own constitution, I agree with you. I found not eating meat to be a difficult lifestyle. But I can't make that claim for everyone. And I refuse to acquiesce to the notion that eating meat = natural = better. My mother, for practically her whole life, has rarely eaten meat. She grew up in a very traditional coastal setting where meat and fish were abundant, but her inclination (not due to politics or her family) was to not eat much. I think it's perfectly natural for some people to be averse to meat eating.

I think this is all fine and well. I have no problems with vegetarians. I just think the holier than us barbaric meat eaters attitude some posses is rather ignorant to the reality we speak of...

I really don't appreciate vegetarians OR meat eaters making vast claims on everyone's behalf.

Like tofu is a horrid horrid substance?

Google?

I thought the person making the claim was supposed to back it up.

Don't start.

Relax, this is not an antagonistic endeavor.

 

[rivrrat]

I've heard really good things about the mediterranean diet.

I don't think saturated fat can out beat unsaturated fat though. Saturated fat can be used by your body for energy if you have a high metabolism or are engaged in heavy bodily activity. If you live a sedentary lifestyle then saturated fat is not going to bring you benefits.

I lift weights and/or do cardio for an hour a day, plus run/walk (read: walking very briskly) 2 miles a day.

 

[Orion]

She'd have to be taking some vitamin supplements, I'd wager, in order to have all of the necessary nutrients present.

Nope.

Her husband is a vegan chef.

 

[Orion]

Yes look at India.... tandori chicken, vindaloo, yummy....

That's not what I meant and you know it. India is full of hindus and buddhists, a lot of whom are vegetarian from birth. How do you account for such a large population not eating meat that has maintained health, even in the pre-modern world?

I'll argue that the imaginary world where your very life and choices of an unnatural diet relies on the production of plants and the abstaining from ones natural composition that is of an omnivore is a surrender to the whims of society...

Well clearly it's not unnatural if people are able to avoid meat and be healthy. See the above example which relates to pre-industrial eras. How do you account for societies that don't eat meat at all?

You haven't demonstrated with evidence or logical deduction that abstaining from meat is unnatural, only your own moral relativism, which is fine for you, but it's not very convincing given there are plenty of real world examples of abstinence from meat consumption that work just fine.

If said apocolypse happened. Most of these "vegans" would be dead in a few weeks due to a lack of enzymes needed to break down meat.

Vegans don't lack the capability of producing those enzymes again. In order for it to be impossible, their genes would have to be permanently deactivated, and that's not the case. Unless they had trouble eating meat from birth, they don't lack the ability to eat meat. They would, however, have to reintroduce meat more gradually, i.e. not eating a steak at the outset.

No its the logical conclusion to your statement. If we reduce meat and replace it with tofu, why not eliminate all meat for tofu, since you claim if i am not mistaken is a complete protien.

If I've already said that that wasn't my claim, then it wasn't my claim. No matter how much you try to distort what I said to mean what you want it to mean, it's not reality. Reducing meat consumption, and in turn saturated fat, combined with foots that contain unsaturated fat will increase your lifespan. There are few foods in this world that contain more saturated fat than meat, so naturally reducing meat is the best way to do that. I myself am omnivorous, so it would be rather hypocritical of me to say that everyone should be a vegetarian, don't you think?

I think this is all fine and well. I have no problems with vegetarians. I just think the holier than us barbaric meat eaters attitude some posses is rather ignorant to the reality we speak of...

I know, and I find it annoying, just as I find holier than thou meat eaters annoying. Combating fire with fire is not effective, in my opinion. The balanced approach is to acknowledge that every person has their own individual needs. What is good for you is generally not necessarily good for me. I tried being vegetarian and it didn't work for me, but I'm not saying it can't work for others.

I thought the person making the claim was supposed to back it up.

Too much work. If you're interested in learning more about those food items, do a search for it or read a book. It's not that hard. The alternatives are bountiful. It sounds like you enjoy your meat though, so whatever.

 

[Tucker Case]

Nope.

Her husband is a vegan chef.

How do they get vitamin b12? I realize large doses aren't required and it can be stored, but its still something one must get.

Are they eating organic vegetables that contain more bug parts than non-organically grown veggies do? That would explain it if they are.

 

[Orion]

How do they get vitamin b12? I realize large doses aren't required and it can be stored, but its still something one must get.

Nutritional yeast, hemp seeds, quinoa, fermented soy products, sea weeds (also high in natural iodine) like the nori used to make sushi.

Are they eating organic vegetables that contain more bug parts than non-organically grown veggies do? That would explain it if they are.

:roll:

 

[Tucker Case]

Nutritional yeast, hemp seeds, quinoa, fermented soy products, sea weeds (also high in natural iodine) like the nori used to make sushi.

They must be fortified, then, because B12 isn't naturally found in those products. If they are eating fortified products, they are taking supplements. If they aren't eating fortified products, they will eventualy suffer from b12 deficiency.

:roll:

Instead of rolling your eyes at that comment, you should do some research on the Indian vegans who went to England. Many Indian vegans in India do not ever suffer form B12 deficiency. The reason for this is due to the higher quantities of bug parts in their organically grown foods. When they move to England, they aren't getting those bug parts in their diets, but they don't alter their diets to account for this, thus they end up suffering from B12 deficiencies at an extremely high rate.

I've done a ton of research on the subject simply because I find it interesting. I have no problems with a vegan diet for others (although I have absolutely no desire to eat a vegan diet myself). But they should be careful to include at least some fortified foods into their diet to supplement for the fact that B12 is not reliably found in plant matter. This is because B12 is only created by bacteria found in animals.

The b12 fortified foods contain no animal matter (aside from the occasional bug part, but that's contamination). Not much is needed to achieve a healthy level of B12. From my research on the subject, B12 is the only nutrient vegans will not naturally receive if they stick to a pure vegan diet (which would exclude the inadvertent bug parts).

 

[Aunt Spiker]

According to this link

Fermented soy products, seaweeds, and algae such as spirulina have all been suggested as containing significant B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources. . . .*snip* . . .

Human feces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilized with human manure. Fecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of anemia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

Wow - here I am, being Iron/b12 deficient, and I'm going to a more vegetarian diet - continually limiting dairy and meat intake - and likely causing more problems for myself.
I didn't realize that there are no significant sources of b12 through vegetables or fruits. I hadn't considered the importance because I do eat consume meat/dairy - just less of it.. . .the idea of trying to depends on hapless bug or feces ingestion is ridiculous. Thankfully I've been taking my supplements.

The idea of having to depend on a pill or altered foods in order to sustain a "pure" or "environmentally sound" diet seems like failure waiting to happen.

Who was it that tried to convince me that human's aren't meant to consume meat and dairy products?
Guess they were wrong.

 

[Tucker Case]

According to this link



Wow - here I am, being Iron/b12 deficient, and I'm going to a more vegetarian diet - continually limiting dairy and meat intake - and likely causing more problems for myself.
I didn't realize that there are no significant sources of b12 through vegetables or fruits. I hadn't considered the importance because I do eat consume meat/dairy - just less of it.. . .the idea of trying to depends on hapless bug or feces ingestion is ridiculous. Thankfully I've been taking my supplements.

The idea of having to depend on a pill or altered foods in order to sustain a "pure" or "environmentally sound" diet seems like failure waiting to happen.

Who was it that tried to convince me that human's aren't meant to consume meat and dairy products?
Guess they were wrong.

If you are eating meat and dairy, as well as takingsuplements, then your B12 deficiency is probably not diet-related.

People don't need large quantities of B12, and it's an unusual water soluble vitamin in the fact that it can be stored by the body. If you are dealing with a B12 deficiency while you are consuming B12 through dairy, meat and supplement sources, even in small quantities, the deficiency is most likely caused by something else. Perhaps an inclination towards that kind of deficiency or a flaw in the way B12 is stored by your body, I don't know. I'd consult a doctor to find out what might be causing it.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

If you are eating meat and dairy, as well as takingsuplements, then your B12 deficiency is probably not diet-related.

People don't need large quantities of B12, and it's an unusual water soluble vitamin in the fact that it can be stored by the body. If you are dealing with a B12 deficiency while you are consuming B12 through dairy, meat and supplement sources, even in small quantities, the deficiency is most likely caused by something else. Perhaps an inclination towards that kind of deficiency or a flaw in the way B12 is stored by your body, I don't know. I'd consult a doctor to find out what might be causing it.

I have pernicious anemia - it's just a genetic form of anemia.
I simply hadn't thought of food-sources of adequate b12, I take my supplements and shots when needed. . . but would like to be off that medical dependence at some point, it's annoying as hell.

 

[Orion]

They must be fortified, then, because B12 isn't naturally found in those products. If they are eating fortified products, they are taking supplements. If they aren't eating fortified products, they will eventualy suffer from b12 deficiency.

Probably. Yes.

Instead of rolling your eyes at that comment,

I rolled my eyes because I thought you were being sarcastic with the bug comment. It didn't seem helpful to the debate.

Thanks for the other info.

 

[Tucker Case]

I rolled my eyes because I thought you were being sarcastic with the bug comment. It didn't seem helpful to the debate.

It wasn't sarcastic. It's actually true that if a vegan eats organic vegetables that don't use pesticides, their chances of developing B12 deficiency decrease. Bug parts in food is an unavoidable thing people would like to ignore, but it's actually healthier than not having the bug parts.

 

[Orion]

It wasn't sarcastic. It's actually true that if a vegan eats organic vegetables that don't use pesticides, their chances of developing B12 deficiency decrease. Bug parts in food is an unavoidable thing people would like to ignore, but it's actually healthier than not having the bug parts.

I apologize then. I didn't know you were being serious.

 

[Tucker Case]

I apologize then. I didn't know you were being serious.

No worries. Even I have trouble figuring out when I'm being serious on occasion. :2razz:

 

[ecofarm]

I take synthetic b12 occasionally (in the form of a vitamin) and eat nori (sushi wrap seaweed) in the form of chips, miso soup or veg sushi. I've read that b12 can be synthesized by the body, though I'm unsure of the building blocks to that beyond the obvious. Decent food-based (perhaps cold-processed) veg vitamin pills are readily available. People should generally take a vitamin at least now and then, as some malnutrition is not calorie based. A vegetable-based diet requires diversity to get the array of amino acids, vitamins and minerals.

Being veg requires a bit of education, it's not just pasta everyday.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

That's very true - it requires a lot of knowledge.

 

[WI Crippler]

Good point.

Her baby is at the stage where she's starting to eat some solids, but if you follow the path of the nutrients back to the mother (who is vegan), the mother needs to be balanced in order for her breast milk to be nutritious and loaded in B vitamins. If a vegan lifestyle were bad for the baby then the baby would already be showing deficiencies because the breast milk would be inadequate.

But the products that the infant is taking in is animal protein(from the mother). Its not as if the soy protein bypasses the digestive system and goes directly into the lactiferous glands. If this was the case, then vegans should consider that cow's milk is vegan as well since cows do not ingest animal proteins in their diet.

 

[Orion]

But the products that the infant is taking in is animal protein(from the mother). Its not as if the soy protein bypasses the digestive system and goes directly into the lactiferous glands. If this was the case, then vegans should consider that cow's milk is vegan as well since cows do not ingest animal proteins in their diet.

I know that.

When I said it, I was mostly thinking of the diet they are starting to feed her.

 

[WI Crippler]

I know that.

When I said it, I was mostly thinking of the diet they are starting to feed her.

I guess I don't understand the disconnect with animal products being a "bad" source of nutrition for vegans when the very foundation of our early developmental diet should be based entirely on an animal products.

I don't have a problem with people choosing to be vegan, but the reasons for doing so baffle me. I can understand that people may not like the meat/dairy industry for various reasons(chemicals/treatment of animals), but there are ways to partake of animal products without supporting those industries.

 

[Orion]

I guess I don't understand the disconnect with animal products being a "bad" source of nutrition for vegans when the very foundation of our early developmental diet should be based entirely on an animal products.

I don't have a problem with people choosing to be vegan, but the reasons for doing so baffle me. I can understand that people may not like the meat/dairy industry for various reasons(chemicals/treatment of animals), but there are ways to partake of animal products without supporting those industries.

I'm not a vegan and never have been, so I can't tell you.

 

[ecofarm]

Eating low on the food chain is good for personal health (my most minor reason) and is efficient ecologically, socially (consider torture/cruelty being accepted in society), economically and spiritually. It's quite that simple.

One could earn a degree in each aspect and I've met different people who each of the above was their "most important reason". There are many orders of priority possible with 5 major factors. Mine would be, in order of priority: ecology, society, spirituality (I believe soul = influence), economics (kinda social) and, lastly, personal health.