• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

To port or not to port.

Jerry

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
51,124
Reaction score
15,258
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent


I'm looking at a Smith & Wesson M&P 340 .357 Mag and am considering having the barrel ported.


smithwesson.jpg

I love the Smith and Wesson 640 series for everyday pocket carry and ease of use under stress. I can forget it's even there, and when I need it it's just grab, point and shoot. No manual safeties to fumble, and the double-action makes it as drop-proof as a loaded firearm can be. I have a 380 and am looking at upgrading to a 357mag round for ammunition flexibility. For those who may no know, a 357mag can fire the smaller 380 ammunition, and is what I would likely load for most personal defense situations. However, I would like the option to load 357mag when larger 4-legged critters, or 2-legged critters in winter clothes asking me not so politely for my wallet, are a concern.

Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?

*****
On a related note, it will have this grip: http://www.opticsplanet.com/crimson-trace-s-w-j-frame-round-butt-lasergrip.html

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
 
Last edited:

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,094
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hell no, do not port that thing.

**** comes out of those ports, including bits of lead or jacketing sometimes. If you ever have to shoot from center lock or hip or something at a point-blank perp, you're likely to hurt yourself.


I had a woman in a close-combat course use a snubby with porting. I didn't realize it was ported. When she did the contact-range-shooting segment from close-body position, she actually got injured from a tiny metal fragment hitting her in the face, barely missed her eye. Ever since, I check close for ported weapons and don't let anyone use them in that course.


I had little opinion on them until then, but now I am dead set against them.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
My wife has a Paxton Quigley autograph Performance center gun that has the porting. with slow 38 bullets (I shot open IPSC with a EAA 9x21 where the massive gas pressure made the comp worked really well) the comp or the porting doesn't do much at all. ALSO if you are shooting at night , the upward blast interferes with "night vision" more

I don't think you can shoot a 380 out of a 357 unless you have some interesting moon clips. 380 is a .356 while the 38 special (which you can shoot in a 357) is 357
 

winston53660

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
29,265
Reaction score
10,128
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I was thinling

imgres.jpeg
 

the_recruit

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2011
Messages
4,207
Reaction score
2,615
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I've got a 686 Plus in .357. Not ported. I've found I rarely use the mags, I prefer shooting the specials.

On a related note, a buddy of mine in college used to experiment with machining his own muzzle brakes for his rifles. If you're aggressive enough with the angle at which the gas blows back, you can actually cause the recoil to reverse - the gun pulls forward instead of pushing back into your shoulder. Very weird.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I've got a 686 Plus in .357. Not ported. I've found I rarely use the mags, I prefer shooting the specials.

On a related note, a buddy of mine in college used to experiment with machining his own muzzle brakes for his rifles. If you're aggressive enough with the angle at which the gas blows back, you can actually cause the recoil to reverse - the gun pulls forward instead of pushing back into your shoulder. Very weird.
most of the IPSC unlimited pistols started pushing down when the trend went away from 45 to the much higher pressure 38 Super and then the 9X21. comps had to be changed to keep the pistol level
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

Si vis pacem, para bellum
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
6,914
Reaction score
3,671
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative


I'm looking at a Smith & Wesson M&P 340 .357 Mag and am considering having the barrel ported.


View attachment 67151765

I love the Smith and Wesson 640 series for everyday pocket carry and ease of use under stress. I can forget it's even there, and when I need it it's just grab, point and shoot. No manual safeties to fumble, and the double-action makes it as drop-proof as a loaded firearm can be. I have a 380 and am looking at upgrading to a 357mag round for ammunition flexibility. For those who may no know, a 357mag can fire the smaller 380 ammunition, and is what I would likely load for most personal defense situations. However, I would like the option to load 357mag when larger 4-legged critters, or 2-legged critters in winter clothes asking me not so politely for my wallet, are a concern.

Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?

*****
On a related note, it will have this grip: Crimson Trace S&W J-Frame Round butt- Lasergrip FREE S&H LG-305G. Crimson Trace Laser Sights.

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
First, You can't shoot a .380 ACP cartridge from a .357 magnum revolver. The .380 is a rimless cartridge while a .357 is a rimmed cartridge.

Second, like TD stated, if you plan to ever carry a ported revolver at night and find the need to fire it, the blast will temporarily blind you.

Third, you can always use .38 Special +P ammo in your .357 magnum revolver. The upside is the recoil will be significantly less than the .357 magnum round. However, terminal ballistics will also be less than the .357 round. This might be a happy medium shooting a relatively light weight revolver susceptible to heavy recoil.

By all means use premium ammo. I like Hornady Critical Duty (Police) and Hornady Critical Defense (Civilians). You can purchase either. Here's a thread with recommendations from others you might be interested in reading.

Opinion on the best self-defense .38 +P

Fourth, I think the laser grip is a good thing.

Have fun with your project. Let us know what you decide.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
[Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?

*****
On a related note, it will have this grip: Crimson Trace S&W J-Frame Round butt- Lasergrip FREE S&H LG-305G. Crimson Trace Laser Sights.

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
What kind of stance would you be using where the barrel of a handgun would be that close to your face ?
I've mastered the Weaver Stance and the barrel would be any where from 18" to 22" from my face depending on barrel length.

Now if a Trayvon Martin type were to sucker punch you and you found yourself on your back having your head repeatly smashed in to the sidewalk, I could see your concern with a ported barrel.

As for self defense ammunition, hollow points seem to be the way to go. There's been so much advancement in ammunition over the years.
Personally my choice is Winchester Black Talons. I stocked up on .45 ACP Black Talons when the government forced Winchester to stop manufacturing it for civilian use.
Black Talon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But your in luck, there are still a lot of Black Talons to be gotten. I'm really surprised, it must be driving Obama bananas.
Here is just one place that has .357 Mag Black talons.

ARMSLIST - For Sale: Authentic Black Talon Ammo 9mm 10mm .40 44mag 357
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I've got a 686 Plus in .357. Not ported. I've found I rarely use the mags, I prefer shooting the specials.

On a related note, a buddy of mine in college used to experiment with machining his own muzzle brakes for his rifles. If you're aggressive enough with the angle at which the gas blows back, you can actually cause the recoil to reverse - the gun pulls forward instead of pushing back into your shoulder. Very weird.
That's what I like about .357 Mag revolvers, they are an allround family home defense handgun. Those in the family who can handle the recoil of a .45 pistol can handle the recoil of the .357 mag. For those who can't, they can use the .38 Spec. ammunition.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
That's what I like about .357 Mag revolvers, they are an allround family home defense handgun. Those in the family who can handle the recoil of a .45 pistol can handle the recoil of the .357 mag. For those who can't, they can use the .38 Spec. ammunition.
have long said the most versatile handgun known to man is a 4 or 6" 357 SW K or L frame revolver.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
have long said the most versatile handgun known to man is a 4 or 6" 357 SW K or L frame revolver.
It's a good make, I just don't like the .357 round personally, I'm more of a fan of the .40+ catagories. However I'm not opposed to a .357 for a conceal carry weapon.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
It's a good make, I just don't like the .357 round personally, I'm more of a fan of the .40+ catagories. However I'm not opposed to a .357 for a conceal carry weapon.
I carry 38 110 Grain critical defense rounds in a light 38 revolver. If I am going to carry a heavy pistol its going to be a 45 1911 or a SW MP in 40.

I have one of those really great self defense 327 Smiths (8 shot with the scandia frame) and a performance center action job but Jr is using it in open revolver steel matches

we soon plan on shooting 38 short colts out of it since they load in the moonclips faster

I have a 627 Pro series 4" which I used for limited revolver in steel
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I carry 38 110 Grain critical defense rounds in a light 38 revolver. If I am going to carry a heavy pistol its going to be a 45 1911 or a SW MP in 40.

I have one of those really great self defense 327 Smiths (8 shot with the scandia frame) and a performance center action job but Jr is using it in open revolver steel matches

we soon plan on shooting 38 short colts out of it since they load in the moonclips faster

I have a 627 Pro series 4" which I used for limited revolver in steel
Nice. The only handgun I personally own is chambered in S&W .40 with 180 grain loads, it's not the biggest pop on the block but if necessary will get the job done. When I do go with another carry weapon I'm probably going to go with a pocket 1911, I like the .45 and .40 rounds for their control and force on target if needed. I see a lot of noobs that want to go with a .50AE but it's too limited, takes too long to draw, too much recoil for anticipating a shot, but fun as hell at the range.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Have to concur.
in OHio a 357 6" revolver is legal for deer hunting

with 38s they are very accurate

you can use them in IPSC, steel, bowling pin and bullseye

as a home self defense weapon, few are better when it comes to stopping power and reliability

and you can conceal a 4" revolver -or even a 6" if you choose wisely your holster.

and for backpacking in the wilderness, its a decent choice (my choice for back country handguns though is that 10MM Glock-15 rounds of full tilt 10MM is pure hell on just about anything short of a panzer tank)
 

Surtr

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
7,017
Reaction score
2,980
Location
The greatest planet in the world.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other


I'm looking at a Smith & Wesson M&P 340 .357 Mag and am considering having the barrel ported.


View attachment 67151765

I love the Smith and Wesson 640 series for everyday pocket carry and ease of use under stress. I can forget it's even there, and when I need it it's just grab, point and shoot. No manual safeties to fumble, and the double-action makes it as drop-proof as a loaded firearm can be. I have a 380 and am looking at upgrading to a 357mag round for ammunition flexibility. For those who may no know, a 357mag can fire the smaller 380 ammunition, and is what I would likely load for most personal defense situations. However, I would like the option to load 357mag when larger 4-legged critters, or 2-legged critters in winter clothes asking me not so politely for my wallet, are a concern.
For larger game, a 357 fired from a long barrel is a good round, but I wouldn't worry about a 38 not penetrating winter clothing. Unless they're wearing a flak jacket underneath their coat, it's going to create a new cavity in their body.

Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?
I wouldn't mess with it. The hot gas is there, but with a ported barrel, it's also shooting that gas upward. Not good if a situation prevents you from having your arms properly extended and away from your face.

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
I prefer soft point ammunition. There's definitely a compromise in expansion, but it doesn't have the drag and resistance of a huge gaping hole in the front of the bullet.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
in OHio a 357 6" revolver is legal for deer hunting

with 38s they are very accurate

you can use them in IPSC, steel, bowling pin and bullseye

as a home self defense weapon, few are better when it comes to stopping power and reliability

and you can conceal a 4" revolver -or even a 6" if you choose wisely your holster.

and for backpacking in the wilderness, its a decent choice (my choice for back country handguns though is that 10MM Glock-15 rounds of full tilt 10MM is pure hell on just about anything short of a panzer tank)
My hand gun of choice is the one I was trained to use and have qualified as expert on the range with. The .45 ACP M-1911 A1.
Now I've owned four different M-1911's. The first one I bought was in 71 when I turned 21. It was a M-1911-A1 manufactured during WW ll by Remington. How many of us have said if I would have just kept my hands on that gun instead of selling it, I would have a collector item ?

The second M-1911 was the Colt 70 Series. Unlike the old military M-1911'a that were designed for FMJ rounds the 70 Series had no problems with HP and SP ammunition. But the 70 series wouldn't except a military spec magazine.

The third was the Colt 80 Series. Experienced some stoppages, it wasn't 100% reliable with cheap ammunition.

The last and the one I prize the most is the Springfield Armory Inc. M-1911 A1 mil. spec. After almost twenty years, still have never experienced a stoppage.

I have a Ruger Black Hawk chambered for the .45 Long Colt. But it has the 4 5/8" barrel and I find it being to short. The Ruger B.H. with the 7 1/2" was to long for my liking. I see that Ruger now has a 5 1/2 barrel available today, perfect !

The only pocket pistol I own is a .380 Walther PPKS.

I'm thinking about the Springfield Armory's Double Stack .45 ACP XDS as a conceal carry pistol, but I'm not sure about a 3.3" barrel. Such a short barrel for the .45 ACP.

And thanks to Obama there a one year back order on many Springfield Armory pistols. Who would have ever guessed that Obama would be the top gun salesman for five years in a row and he's a shoe in for this year.
 

Jerry

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
51,124
Reaction score
15,258
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Μολὼν λαβέ;1062162854 said:
First, You can't shoot a .380 ACP cartridge from a .357 magnum revolver. The .380 is a rimless cartridge while a .357 is a rimmed cartridge.
I didn't realize 380 meant auto. A 357 will fire 38cal. That's what I was trying to say.
 

CRUE CAB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
16,763
Reaction score
4,343
Location
Melbourne Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other


I'm looking at a Smith & Wesson M&P 340 .357 Mag and am considering having the barrel ported.


View attachment 67151765

I love the Smith and Wesson 640 series for everyday pocket carry and ease of use under stress. I can forget it's even there, and when I need it it's just grab, point and shoot. No manual safeties to fumble, and the double-action makes it as drop-proof as a loaded firearm can be. I have a 380 and am looking at upgrading to a 357mag round for ammunition flexibility. For those who may no know, a 357mag can fire the smaller 380 ammunition, and is what I would likely load for most personal defense situations. However, I would like the option to load 357mag when larger 4-legged critters, or 2-legged critters in winter clothes asking me not so politely for my wallet, are a concern.

Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?

*****
On a related note, it will have this grip: Crimson Trace S&W J-Frame Round butt- Lasergrip FREE S&H LG-305G. Crimson Trace Laser Sights.

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
Nope, if you ever have to shoot from a close in position or barely out of the holster, you will spray yourself with fire, lead, jacket.
Porting is cool, I have had a few ported guns. Currently a 686 3" .357. But I wouldnt carry it for concealed carry.
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

Si vis pacem, para bellum
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
6,914
Reaction score
3,671
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
I'm really glad you started this thread Jerry because it has evolved into a general discussion about peoples' various preferences for self-protection, especially concealed carry. In a perfect scenario I would carry a semi-custom or full custom 1911 concealed as that is the law in my state. My preference is either a full size government model or a CCO (concealed carry officer) size that has a 4 1/4" barrel with an officer's size frame. My CCO would also have a bushing instead of a bull barrel. IMO all 1911s should have a bushing, just my preference.

However, since we don't live in a perfect world I find myself carrying a Glock 19 most in cooler weather and a Kahr CW9 in hot weather. Both are 9mm and have light weight polymer frames which make them more comfortable to me to tote. IMO Kahr makes great firearms and the CW9 is a great deal in today's handgun market due to its price point and reliability. It's a sleeper IMO so check it out. This slide on this one is less than an inch wide and has a 3 1/2" barrel which conceals nicely on a belt under a t-shirt or even in the pocket (with a holster) of cargo shorts. It comes with one 7 round mag but you can purchase extras from numerous resources.

The 9mm round is a great choice for personal protection as bullet design due to improved technology has increased the effectiveness of the round. I use Hornady and Federal mostly, the latter with 124 grain +P+ hollow point ammo.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
251,330
Reaction score
75,655
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Μολὼν λαβέ;1062164450 said:
I'm really glad you started this thread Jerry because it has evolved into a general discussion about peoples' various preferences for self-protection, especially concealed carry. In a perfect scenario I would carry a semi-custom or full custom 1911 concealed as that is the law in my state. My preference is either a full size government model or a CCO (concealed carry officer) size that has a 4 1/4" barrel with an officer's size frame. My CCO would also have a bushing instead of a bull barrel. IMO all 1911s should have a bushing, just my preference.

However, since we don't live in a perfect world I find myself carrying a Glock 19 most in cooler weather and a Kahr CW9 in hot weather. Both are 9mm and have light weight polymer frames which make them more comfortable to me to tote. IMO Kahr makes great firearms and the CW9 is a great deal in today's handgun market due to its price point and reliability. It's a sleeper IMO so check it out. This slide on this one is less than an inch wide and has a 3 1/2" barrel which conceals nicely on a belt under a t-shirt or even in the pocket (with a holster) of cargo shorts. It comes with one 7 round mag but you can purchase extras from numerous resources.

The 9mm round is a great choice for personal protection as bullet design due to improved technology has increased the effectiveness of the round. I use Hornady and Federal mostly, the latter with 124 grain +P+ hollow point ammo.
the cops I know who actually take firearms seriously almost all have Kahr's as backups though others are now carrying the MP compact (the City of cincinnati is using 9mm MP, the sheriff went to 40 MP) or the shields due to the discount SW gives officers in departments that are issuing SW MPs. We have a Kahr and its a bit nasty to shoot continually but it sure is small.

I use golden sabers or Federal Hydrashocks in mine

DHS border patrol 135 40s for the MP I keep in my car
 

apdst

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
133,631
Reaction score
30,926
Location
Bagdad, La.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I have some guns with ports and muzzle breaks and I'm not impressed. I don't feel like it degraded performance, but I certainly don't see any upgrade in performance.

I have a .300 win mag on a custom chasse and spent another 200 bucks to put a kick ass looking muzzle break and the only thing I accomplished was to make the barrel 3 inches longer and the muzzle report even friggin louder than it already would have been. Not to mention, I feel some concusion from the gas escaping through the ports of the break. One of these days I'm going to have it removed.
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

Si vis pacem, para bellum
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
6,914
Reaction score
3,671
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
I have some guns with ports and muzzle breaks and I'm not impressed. I don't feel like it degraded performance, but I certainly don't see any upgrade in performance.

I have a .300 win mag on a custom chasse and spent another 200 bucks to put a kick ass looking muzzle break and the only thing I accomplished was to make the barrel 3 inches longer and the muzzle report even friggin louder than it already would have been. Not to mention, I feel some concusion from the gas escaping through the ports of the break. One of these days I'm going to have it removed.
Since your rifle has a threaded barrel take off the break and try a suppressor. I think you'll be impressed with the amount of reduced noise. I read American Sniper by Chris Kyle this summer and one of the rifles he used in Iraq was a .300 Win mag suppressed.

 

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
46,337
Reaction score
9,259
Location
Houston, in the great state of Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative


I'm looking at a Smith & Wesson M&P 340 .357 Mag and am considering having the barrel ported.


View attachment 67151765

I love the Smith and Wesson 640 series for everyday pocket carry and ease of use under stress. I can forget it's even there, and when I need it it's just grab, point and shoot. No manual safeties to fumble, and the double-action makes it as drop-proof as a loaded firearm can be. I have a 380 and am looking at upgrading to a 357mag round for ammunition flexibility. For those who may no know, a 357mag can fire the smaller 380 ammunition, and is what I would likely load for most personal defense situations. However, I would like the option to load 357mag when larger 4-legged critters, or 2-legged critters in winter clothes asking me not so politely for my wallet, are a concern.

Regarding the ported barrel, it's generally taboo to port a self-defense gun because of the risk of having hot gas spray up in your face. However, given that this is a snub the hot gas is already right there anyway.

What do you think?

*****
On a related note, it will have this grip: Crimson Trace S&W J-Frame Round butt- Lasergrip FREE S&H LG-305G. Crimson Trace Laser Sights.

I would also like your opinion on flat-tip vs hollow-point 357 bullets for self defense against humans situations, and suggestions on a trigger mod.
I would say not to port, it really isn't going to do much. Porting a one inch long barrelreally will not effect the handling of the gun. Now if your barrel was four inches long then i would consider it. But that is a close quarter weapon, meaning someone is on tip of you. You would likely be pumping lead into someone's belly or chest from a rock and lock position. You don't really have much time top aim.
 
Top Bottom