To Not Buy American Cars Is To Be UnAmerican???

[George_Washington]

If you are an American Citizen and you don't buy an American car (since American car companies are struggling) is it safe to assume that you're UnAmerican? I say that that is somewhat true. Here's why: Isn't it our duty to help out symbols of American? Isn't it our duty to make sure that fellow Americans keep their jobs (GM laid off like 1,000 people a while ago)? I mean, when you buy a Honda, or a VW, most of that money goes overseas. It doesn't stay here. Like a Honda Civic might be $25,000 on the lot, but it only takes maybe $3,000 to manufacture one; so that means that Honda makes a $22,000 profit, money that goes back to Japan. I'm NOT saying to never buy cars or products from overseas. But let's help out our symbols of American Auto industry. We owe it to them for the 100 years, or so, of service they gave us.

no, you're not unamerican. The problem is that we just have idiots running a lot of our car companies. If I were in charge of designing cars, I could design a super sleek sports car that would rival every Euro car out there.

 

[americanwoman]

I love my Toyota and would probably never go to another brand now. Sorry but I don't think it's un American when most American cars are crap and made somewhere else anyway.

Beside I paid enough in American taxes to even things out a little.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Actually, most of the assembly of American cars is done right here in the USA. My Trailblazer was assembled in Michigan (I know that seems like a foreign country but my college football schedule says they're in the Big 10 - lol - so I guess that means they're still a part of the union). So was my Malibu. The Sable we used to have was assembled in Georgia. They assemble all the Jeeps in Toledo, OH. GM is going to build a new transmission factory in Toledo as well - they already have a GM Powertrain plant there. What's being outsourced primarily are intermediate parts manufacturers. Years ago the big three used to own their own parts factories. Now, it's more cost effective to use a multiple parts manufacturer. EXAMPLE: Bridgestone APM in northwest Ohio makes parts for just about every auto manufacturer out there - Japanese and American. A lot of what's being outsourced are these intermediate multiple parts manufacturing jobs. Even though a lot of Honda's are assembled in Marysville, OH they use these cheaper parts manufacturers. They get their brakes from a factory in my hometown - who also make brakes for other companies as well. They are also a Japanese owned company as is Bridgestone APM. In the end you're buying a name - even the engineering is done many times as a joint venture. Certainly no company is trading all their secrets. But, it really is hard to know how American any product is anymore. Experience tells me that neither American nor Japanese autos are any better than each other. A lot of it depends on how you take care of your vehicles.

 

[Blue Collar Joe]

Buying American is harder to do than ever. Look under the hood, and you'll find a lot of parts made elsewhere in the world.
Lets step from the cars to the motorcycles for a moment. Harley Davidson got so bad off, they actually sold themselves to AMF. Just what you need, a company that made its reputation on bowling balls building motorcycles.
The descendants bought it back again, at a still lower price. Then Harley made a comeback, and is now a strong company once again.
Why? Because they finally woke up to one important fact: If you don't have quality, you won't sell anything. So, they now build good motorcycles again, and sell them successfully in a very competitive market.
The auto makers execs and the Unions are what are killing the big three. Until they start making some serious inroads in producing quality equivalent to the competition, and start working hard to clean out the dead weights of the Union, they are going to continue to lose ground.

 

[scottyz]

no, you're not unamerican. The problem is that we just have idiots running a lot of our car companies. If I were in charge of designing cars, I could design a super sleek sports car that would rival every Euro car out there.

I think this is exactly the case. We have lawyers, suits and bean counters running our companies rather than engineers and passionate car people. Dodge didn't make a come back building cars that rivaled Toyota for build quality and reliability, instead they built cars that people were passionate about and it has saved them.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I think this is exactly the case. We have lawyers, suits and bean counters running our companies rather than engineers and passionate car people. Dodge didn't make a come back building cars that rivaled Toyota for build quality and reliability, instead they built cars that people were passionate about and it has saved them.

The fact that they were bought out by Daimler didn't hurt either. Technically there's only a big 2 - Chrysler has become a German company by default.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Back to auto manufacturers --- The fact is greed. The very thing that American companies have been accused of for years. The difference is that the American company pays it's labor a higher rate as well as their executives. The execs pay & benefits packages are unreal.

The pay and benefits of an American auto factory worker are what's unreal.

In many places (my hometown for one) those Japanese companies are getting huge tax abatements for building new factories & hiring folks at about $10 to $14 per hour. While in the same town an American company that's been there for 30+ years gets no incentive to stay.

Why should we incite failed operations to continue?

So now we end up with this vicious cycle of "how do you buy American?"

Crush the UAW.

 

[scottyz]

The fact that they were bought out by Daimler didn't hurt either. Technically there's only a big 2 - Chrysler has become a German company by default.

But with Lutz at the helm they had turned things around before DC bought them. Now demand is so high Dodge can't build enough of certain models... no one could have imagined that would be the case 10-15 years ago.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

The pay and benefits of an American auto factory worker are what's unreal.

execs = multi-million dollar contracts / laborer = $26.00 per hour

at $1,000,000 per year an exec makes about $480.00 per hour (@ 40 hours per week) - $320.00 per hour (@ 60 hours per week) - & that's to the low side. Plus their benefits are alway better than the laborer as well as vaction time & bonuses.

at $26.00 per hour a lbaorer makes $1040.00 per week (before taxes, insurance premiums, 401k, etc. are taken out - in which some of those are not taken out of execs pay rate). It's also rare to see a laborer get a bonus though it's their work that makes the profit. At the laborer's rate of pay they'll make about $54,080.00 per year. Certainly not endangered of getting rich - & this is to the high side - but doesn't include over-time; which is likely to be worked.

Why should we incite failed operations to continue?

I wouldn't call Cooper Tire & Rubber Company a failed business; OR, Whirlpool, or Ball Metal (they make pop cans, beer cans, etc). All have been in my hometown for decades & will likely leave before too long. Cooper has been talking about it for the past couple of years - the folks I know that work there are walking on pins & needles (they make good money but certainly not UAW wages). Whirlpool has already shifted some of their work to outside companies. Ball Metal is the only one that seems safe; for now. There used to be more - RCA, Phillips, - & a SunnyD facility too (none failed - just moved away for a better deal on tax abatements).

Crush the UAW.

maybe...

 

[The Real McCoy]

execs = multi-million dollar contracts / laborer = $26.00 per hour

at $1,000,000 per year an exec makes about $480.00 per hour (@ 40 hours per week) - $320.00 per hour (@ 60 hours per week) - & that's to the low side. Plus their benefits are alway better than the laborer as well as vaction time & bonuses.

at $26.00 per hour a lbaorer makes $1040.00 per week (before taxes, insurance premiums, 401k, etc. are taken out - in which some of those are not taken out of execs pay rate). It's also rare to see a laborer get a bonus though it's their work that makes the profit. At the laborer's rate of pay they'll make about $54,080.00 per year. Certainly not endangered of getting rich - & this is to the high side - but doesn't include over-time; which is likely to be worked.

Yes but when you're employing hundreds of thousands of laborers, that $26.00/hour plus health benefits adds up. The CEO is just one guy. In a competitive market, a guy operating a power drill or a welder sure as hell isn't worth $26 an hour. Of course they won't get rich and why should they, they're doing a task more fit for a high school drop out.

I wouldn't call Cooper Tire & Rubber Company a failed business; OR, Whirlpool, or Ball Metal (they make pop cans, beer cans, etc). All have been in my hometown for decades & will likely leave before too long. Cooper has been talking about it for the past couple of years - the folks I know that work there are walking on pins & needles (they make good money but certainly not UAW wages). Whirlpool has already shifted some of their work to outside companies. Ball Metal is the only one that seems safe; for now. There used to be more - RCA, Phillips, - & a SunnyD facility too (none failed - just moved away for a better deal on tax abatements).

Well I was just focusing particulalrly on the automakers.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Yes but when you're employing hundreds of thousands of laborers, that $26.00/hour plus health benefits adds up. The CEO is just one guy. In a competitive market, a guy operating a power drill or a welder sure as hell isn't worth $26 an hour. Of course they won't get rich and why should they, they're doing a task more fit for a high school drop out.

Apparently you've never welded before. It is a skilled trade; not a simplistic task as you've implied. Certainly $26.00 per hour for someone who does nothing bit zip in a screw with a pneumatic drill is beyond the value of the work being performed. I agree that folks doing such work are being paid far too much considering their lack of education or labor intensity. Many welders do go to a tech school to learn that trade. Most welding jobs require a welding test to gain employment. Some even require a welding certification. EXAMPLE: iron workers, railroaders (only certain jobs), etc...

I had 8 weeks of training in Georgia to learn the basics of my job. Plus I had to pass 5 weld tests - vertical with stick & mig - overhead with stick & mig - pipe with stick. No, I don't believe I deserve a million dollar contract but the 20something an hour I do make is pretty good - low when compared to auto-workers who do less with less "skill". The problem comes when you get a 30 cent per hour raise but they raise your insurance premium from $92.00 per month to $123.00 per month. Inflation went up 3.4% - explain where my raise went? You can't continue to make the working class lose ground to inflation without the economy suffering serious set backs. Yes, I'm in a union & I'm not impressed with it at all. But, it's required of me to join the union to keep my job. The only nice thing is - I don't have to worry about Social Security - Railroad Retirement is much better.

 

[scottyz]

Yes but when you're employing hundreds of thousands of laborers, that $26.00/hour plus health benefits adds up. The CEO is just one guy. In a competitive market, a guy operating a power drill or a welder sure as hell isn't worth $26 an hour. Of course they won't get rich and why should they, they're doing a task more fit for a high school drop out.

Have you ever welded cars or machinery together? Welded Aluminum?

Bad unions cost millions, but bad management costs billions. Because management can't come up with cars that will sell for enough $$ to make a profit they end up in the kind of mess GM is in.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Have you ever welded cars or machinery together? Welded Aluminum?

I've been a welder for about 10 years & I am damn good at it. What I dislike about a union is that everybody makes the same no matter your ability or dedication. In the past I have been hired at a higher rate than someone who's been working there for a few years...mainly because I can weld better than the average welder (despite what the real mccoy thinks - not everyone can weld). I worked at a place where we made school busses. Yeah, that's good place to pay $8.00 per hour. Then I worked at a place where we made parts for the Abrams. Both places I started at a higher rate than the standard starting wage - I also demanded I be on first shift because I coached my son's little league baseball team & was not willing to give that up to work for them. With a union job you can't do that. I was laid off from the latter job due to IN-sourcing; not out-sourcing. The facility we were making parts for decided they could save money if they made them in house. So I went into business with my wife. We built a service oriented business from 2002 - until I went to work for the railroad in 2004. Amazing that one can build a business while everyone kept telling us the economy was so bad.

by the way - I have welded aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, & common steel. I've used stick, mig, tig, & flux core mig.

Fact is that not all Americans are lazy - BUT, some are. Some of the lower wage jobs wouldn't seem so bad if they weren't taxed to death just to give handouts to abled body lazy (insert your favorite expletive right here). Unions need to understand that not everyone is deserving of the wage they've bargained - & some deserve a little more.

 

[scottyz]

I've been a welder for about 10 years & I am damn good at it. What I dislike about a union is that everybody makes the same no matter your ability or dedication. In the past I have been hired at a higher rate than someone who's been working there for a few years...mainly because I can weld better than the average welder (despite what the real mccoy thinks - not everyone can weld). I worked at a place where we made school busses. Yeah, that's good place to pay $8.00 per hour. Then I worked at a place where we made parts for the Abrams. Both places I started at a higher rate than the standard starting wage - I also demanded I be on first shift because I coached my son's little league baseball team & was not willing to give that up to work for them. With a union job you can't do that. I was laid off from the latter job due to IN-sourcing; not out-sourcing. The facility we were making parts for decided they could save money if they made them in house. So I went into business with my wife. We built a service oriented business from 2002 - until I went to work for the railroad in 2004. Amazing that one can build a business while everyone kept telling us the economy was so bad.

by the way - I have welded aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, & common steel. I've used stick, mig, tig, & flux core mig.

Fact is that not all Americans are lazy - BUT, some are. Some of the lower wage jobs wouldn't seem so bad if they weren't taxed to death just to give handouts to abled body lazy (insert your favorite expletive right here). Unions need to understand that not everyone is deserving of the wage they've bargained - & some deserve a little more.

Actually I was asking McCoy. :lol: I did some welding in school and I weld as a hobby with my cheap welder. I know making good welds isn't easy, though many good welders make it look easy.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Actually I was asking McCoy. :lol: I did some welding in school and I weld as a hobby with my cheap welder. I know making good welds isn't easy, though many good welders make it look easy.

Yeah - I realized you were talking to McCoy - I just wanted to add my two cents worth about welding. I didn't take welding in school. I got on the job training. You wouldn't believe how many people I've seen come through a fab shop that just can't ever get a real handle on welding. I got lucky & was taught by, not only a very good welder but, a good teacher as well. I picked it up rather quickly. It's similar to being a musician (I'm also a guitar player). You can practice to improve yourself but you also need some talent - talent can't really be taught. Either you have it or you don't. It's sad though that many places are going to robotic welders - the art of welding is getting lost. In the long run it creates more work, because when the robot messes up it creates a much more labor intensive repair work that nobody wants to pay for. At least not pay well. I operated one of those robots - it took all the fun out of welding. I actually enjoy welding & fabricating - I was laid off from my favorite job -- it paid fairly well & had good benfits --- best part was I came into work & the boss gave me a blue print & said "build that." ----nobody looked over my shoulder - I just did my job - BUT, you gotta love it when they sell out to greedy corporations who decide we can no longer operate with a 1-3% profit margin - now it's got to be at least a 7% profit margin on all bids - they lost 3/4 of their business. Oh well, that's life -

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/23/american_cars/

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051002/BUSINESS/510020348

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

First, American autos aren't so bad. They're actually pretty darn good. Second, looking toward foreign oil Independence we should take a serious look at E85 fuel. American auto makers already have. They make more flex-fuel vehicles than anyone else. Plus, it would also help out our farmers.

 

[scottyz]

Second, looking toward foreign oil Independence we should take a serious look at E85 fuel. American auto makers already have. They make more flex-fuel vehicles than anyone else. Plus, it would also help out our farmers.

That's because automakers get credits for building alternative fuel vehicles despite the fact that almost nobody uses the alternative fuel. Even though I live in the corn belt E85 is very hard to find.

 

[George_Washington]

I think this is exactly the case. We have lawyers, suits and bean counters running our companies rather than engineers and passionate car people. Dodge didn't make a come back building cars that rivaled Toyota for build quality and reliability, instead they built cars that people were passionate about and it has saved them.

Yes, excellent point. We just don't have people with enough passion and creative ideas.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

That's because automakers get credits for building alternative fuel vehicles despite the fact that almost nobody uses the alternative fuel. Even though I live in the corn belt E85 is very hard to find.

True - however, advocating for it may help. It is a technology that we have available right now. This isn't just some pipe dream that won't ever be realized. People just need to be educated, Then, maybe then, the demand will increase to the point that more refining facilities will be built (here in the USA). Wow, a way to create jobs for Americans. What a novel idea.

 

[scottyz]

True - however, advocating for it may help. It is a technology that we have available right now. This isn't just some pipe dream that won't ever be realized. People just need to be educated, Then, maybe then, the demand will increase to the point that more refining facilities will be built (here in the USA). Wow, a way to create jobs for Americans. What a novel idea.

If it was actually offered more places it might take off. I can't imagine the gas station or oil company is going to want to offer a cheaper alternative to their $2-$3/gal gasoline.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Hmmmm....can't answer that poll, not spot that says "totally not unAmerican to spend your money wisely".


I got me an old GMC commercial van. Used to be owned by Disneyland. The step-daughter let the coolant run out and I dropped a re-built engine in the thing for a couple grand. A nice big 350 V-8 kind of engine. That thing sure is sweet to drive. I can see over the tops of most SUV's, I've got "presence" on the roads - a necessity in Los Angeles, and I can see it in the parking lot no matter how far away I park. Best of all, when I pull into Home Depot, I can get a herd of Mexican invaders to chase after me, looking for work.

I think it gets twelve miles to the gallon, but the thing only cost me a couple of grand to put on the road, like I said. The nearest equivalent vehicle costs nearly $30,000 new, and they don't get that much better gas mileage. I figure I'll wear this thing out before I could save enough money on gas to have made a new vehicle worthwhile, and I haven't even figured in the cost of insuring a new vehicle, or the registration fees, or the sales and property tax.

But certainly if I was in the market for a new vehicle, I'd spend as much time and effort researching the imports...probably more. IMO if the unions want me to "Buy American", they'll do two things:

1) Reduce their wages so the vehicles are more price comptetive, and

2) Stop making junk.

====

Ah...welding. Stress engineers hate welding. Unless you go through an extended (and expensive) heat treating process after the weld, you have to use the "annealed" properties in the analysis, as well as significant weld reduction factors of safety. There may or may not be strength tests required, and NASA requires radiographing and full fracture mechanics certification of welds for any Shuttle payload. Bolted joints are usually simpler to deal with welds.

The FAA isn't that bad for aircraft, but it's still a hassle.

 

[Mr. D]

To buy a car only because it's American made if it isn't the best buy is direct corporate welfare! Why not just buy the Toyota you want and just send $1,000. to each of the Big Three as a welfare gift!

By the way, have you checked on the actual % of Chrysler stock owned by Americans? Low single digits! When the Big Three think of Americans before maximizing profits I'll worry about them! Are multi national corporations actually American countries anymore? That's debateable the way they export jobs!

Next you'll ask me to feel warm and fuzzy towards the oil companies while their profits are at record highs, they get tax breaks, and gas rates are at an all time high!

Besides we have a president appointed to take care of these corporations! Taxpayers need to take care of our savings before the massive national debt turns to taxes to clean up the mess in the next administration!

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

If it was actually offered more places it might take off. I can't imagine the gas station or oil company is going to want to offer a cheaper alternative to their $2-$3/gal gasoline.

Someone has to invest in building more refining facilities for ethanol to make E85. Maybe even investing in mega-corporate farms to grow mass amounts of corn/soybean/etc. There is plenty of investment oportunities for the oil companies as well as the auto makers themselves. Like I said - this isn't just some pipe dream that will never be realized; the technology is here. We just need it to be pushed to the forefront by the government & the industry. They did it when we went from horse'N'buggies to atuomobiles. They did it when trains went from steam to deisel. They did it when mass travel went from busses & trains to airplanes. It's possible. We, the people, just have to demand it.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Apparently you've never welded before. It is a skilled trade; not a simplistic task as you've implied. Certainly $26.00 per hour for someone who does nothing bit zip in a screw with a pneumatic drill is beyond the value of the work being performed. I agree that folks doing such work are being paid far too much considering their lack of education or labor intensity. Many welders do go to a tech school to learn that trade. Most welding jobs require a welding test to gain employment. Some even require a welding certification. EXAMPLE: iron workers, railroaders (only certain jobs), etc...

I had 8 weeks of training in Georgia to learn the basics of my job. Plus I had to pass 5 weld tests - vertical with stick & mig - overhead with stick & mig - pipe with stick. No, I don't believe I deserve a million dollar contract but the 20something an hour I do make is pretty good - low when compared to auto-workers who do less with less "skill". The problem comes when you get a 30 cent per hour raise but they raise your insurance premium from $92.00 per month to $123.00 per month. Inflation went up 3.4% - explain where my raise went? You can't continue to make the working class lose ground to inflation without the economy suffering serious set backs. Yes, I'm in a union & I'm not impressed with it at all. But, it's required of me to join the union to keep my job. The only nice thing is - I don't have to worry about Social Security - Railroad Retirement is much better.

You're right, I haven't. I honestly don't know that much about welding so I shouldn't have used it as an example but my point about other menial jobs with sky-high wages still stands.



This week's Newsweek has an article by Allan Sloan, comparing GM and Toyota. In 2004, GM reported it's health care/pension costs were $2,223 per vehicle Sloan did his own study and concluded GM actually spends $2,550 per vehicle. Toyota, on the other hand, spends $250 per vehicle in total health care and retirement costs. BIG difference. Coupled with the fact that Toyota's are generally more expensive than their GM counterparts yet Americans are choosing to buy Toyotas, it's no wonder General Motors is sinking.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Someone has to invest in building more refining facilities for ethanol to make E85.

They will, no doubt about that.

Maybe even investing in mega-corporate farms to grow mass amounts of corn/soybean/etc. There is plenty of investment oportunities for the oil companies as well as the auto makers themselves. Like I said - this isn't just some pipe dream that will never be realized; the technology is here. We just need it to be pushed to the forefront by the government & the industry. They did it when we went from horse'N'buggies to atuomobiles. They did it when trains went from steam to deisel. They did it when mass travel went from busses & trains to airplanes. It's possible. We, the people, just have to demand it.

People tend to vote with their wallets so once the price of petroleum eclipses that of ethanol based fuels, they demand will certainly shift that way. The free market... such a beautiful thing.