To Catch a Predator?

[Pull My Finger]

Does the NBC Dateline show "To Catch a Predator" cross the line?

For anyone who hasn't seen it; a quick run down.

Someone poses as an underage kid on the net.
They get adult men to come to their house.
When they get their, a camera crew awaits.
They film as the men 'squirm' & make up excuses.

Here is a quick clip.
YouTube - Cleanest, best,pleasure... XD @ To Catch a Predatorhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVLT26CMzk4

 

[Gibberish]

Yes it does cross a line. It crosses the line over to where the pedophiles are and drags their assess over to this side of the line and throws them in jail.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Yes it does cross a line. It crosses the line over to where the pedophiles are and drags their assess over to this side of the line and throws them in jail.

I don't think they can throw them in jail for going to a house and not doing anything, but it is funny to watch these perverts on camera.

Edit:
Nevermind, apparently they do get arrested. But they haven't really done anything yet...

 

[jamesrage]

Does the NBC Dateline show "To Catch a Predator" cross the line?

For anyone who hasn't seen it; a quick run down.

Someone poses as an underage kid on the net.
They get adult men to come to their house.
When they get their, a camera crew awaits.
They film as the men 'squirm' & make up excuses.

Here is a quick clip.
YouTube - Cleanest, best,pleasure... XD @ To Catch a Predatorhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVLT26CMzk4

No it does not cross the line.If the men were not seeking children to engage in sex with they would not have not got caught. .Those pedophiles would be still trying to coerce children into sex regardless if Dateline,the undercovers and the cops were there or not.

I am surprised that a liberal network would actually have a show like that.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It's textbook entrapment, but there's very little that can legally be done to the "predators"-- if I am handed a handgun loaded with blanks and a man pretends to start a fight with me, I cannot be convicted of murder no matter how many of the blanks I fire into his chest.

I don't consider teenagers to be children in the first place, but the behavior of the online impostors very strongly suggests that it would not be moral for older men to be having sex with them. I certainly don't object to exposing these men and embarrassing them on television-- frankly, I think it serves them right for their degenerate conduct.

edit: And jamesrage makes a good point. Every time someone winds up on that show is a case where they would have been having sex with a twelve-year-old. They're performing a public service just by distracting the bastards, much less exposing them.

 

[jamesrage]

I don't think they can throw them in jail for going to a house and not doing anything, but it is funny to watch these perverts on camera.

Edit:
Nevermind, apparently they do get arrested. But they haven't really done anything yet...

Soliciting a child for sex is doing something.Soliciting a minor for sex in many states is a criminal act as well as showing up to a minor's house with intentions to engage in statutory rape.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Soliciting a child for sex is doing something.Soliciting a minor for sex in many states is a criminal act as well as showing up to a minor's house with intentions to engage in statutory rape.

Problem is, they're neither soliciting a minor for sex, nor showing up at a minor's house. They only think they are.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Problem is, they're neither soliciting a minor for sex, nor showing up at a minor's house. They only think they are.

Bingo. Apparently they're still being arrested, but what are they being charged with?

Here's a little fun from one of my favorite comedians. If you're unfamiliar with Doug Stanhope look up his Deadbeat Hero performance on YouTube, it's classic stuff.
Comedian Doug Stanhope - BAITING

 

[jamesrage]

It's textbook entrapment,

A.The undecovers are not cops.
B.Even if they were cops,they were not luring anyone to solicit children for sex because the individual was already trying to find children to engage in sex with.
c.It is no different than any other sting operation to catch criminals.

entrapment - Definitions from Dictionary.com
1. the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime.
2. an act or process of entrapping.
3. a state of being entrapped.

but there's very little that can legally be done to the "predators"-- if I am handed a handgun loaded with blanks and a man pretends to start a fight with me, I cannot be convicted of murder no matter how many of the blanks I fire into his chest.

Even if the bullets are real you would probably get off with self defense in that scenario.

 

[RightOfCenter]

A.The undecovers are not cops.
B.Even if they were cops,they were not luring anyone to solicit children for sex because the individual was already trying to find children to engage in sex with.
c.It is no different than any other sting operation to catch criminals.

entrapment - Definitions from Dictionary.com
1. the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime.
2. an act or process of entrapping.
3. a state of being entrapped.






Even if the bullets are real you would probably get off with self defense in that scenario.

You should check out the link I posted earlier about baiting, you'd probably think that's funny as hell. I sure do.

 

[jamesrage]

Problem is, they're neither soliciting a minor for sex, nor showing up at a minor's house. They only think they are.

In these cases what matters is "intent" on the part of the individual.
Criminal law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Criminal statutes spell out the exact behaviors, mental states, results and circumstances which constitute a particular crime. These required parts of a crime are known as the elements of the offense. Unless all the elements are proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the prosecuting authority, the defendant is not guilty of the offense. There are four kinds of elements: the act itself, the actus reus, guilty act; the requisite culpable mental state, the mens rea, guilty mind; the result, and the attendant circumstances.



Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It is the duty of the prosecution therefore, to prove not merely the act (unlawful entry)...

That's the problem. They still have to prove the act, but the act itself does not occur. It isn't illegal to solicit adult men for sex, and the adult men pretending to be underaged girls does not make them underaged girls.

Just like it isn't illegal to snort crushed-up baby aspirin, no matter what you think you're actually doing.

You keep repeating the quote from Wikipedia... but the quote states explicitly that the prosecution must prove all of the elements of the crime-- including the act itself, which cannot be proven because it has not occurred.

 

[jamesrage]

That's the problem. They still have to prove the act, but the act itself does not occur. It isn't illegal to solicit adult men for sex, and the adult men pretending to be underaged girls does not make them underaged girls.

Just like it isn't illegal to snort crushed-up baby aspirin, no matter what you think you're actually doing.

You keep repeating the quote from Wikipedia... but the quote states explicitly that the prosecution must prove all of the elements of the crime-- including the act itself, which cannot be proven because it has not occurred.

§ 3.01.2 Use of a Computer to Lure or Attempt to Lure a Minor

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

It is irrelevant whether the the person is a minor or not. The fact that the perpetrator believes he is talking to a minor and then attempts to meet the minor with sexual advances in mind is intent to commit the crime. It is not entrapment as long as the 'minor' does not solicit the perpetrator. I completely support what this show does.

 

[aps]

No it does not cross the line.If the men were not seeking children to engage in sex with they would not have not got caught. .Those pedophiles would be still trying to coerce children into sex regardless if Dateline,the undercovers and the cops were there or not.

I am surprised that a liberal network would actually have a show like that.

I am too, since liberal networks think pedophiles should be able to act out their fantasies. :roll:

Grow up, jamesrage.

 

[disneydude]

Just to clear up a few misconceptions that have been posted here: These men can get prosecuted and they do.

A number of people have posted here regarding intent and have indicated that unless a sexual act occurs there is no crime. That is not true.

In California, for example, there is a crime PC 288 (Lewd conduct on a child). This charge requires a sexual act.

However, what these men do is prosecuted under PC 288.2 (solicitication of a child with the intention of seducing).

This charge does not require a sexual act NOR does it require that there actually be a child. Legal impossibility is not a defense to the charge. All that is required is that the individual solicit someone whom they believe to be a child and then an action to further that intent (such as showing up in the house).

This charge is a FELONY (punishable by state prison) and does require sex registration.

Right now I have a client who is being prosecuted under this section even though he never took an act in furtherance (went to the location). His contention is that he was on a chat-room website and was engaging only in fantasy. He says that he didn't believe the person on the other end was actually a child, only one fantasizing as such.

Despite whether we think that conduct is repulsive or not, the law does not criminalize mere fantasy and I expect that his case will be dismissed. The DA is pushing it though to see how far the law can be pushed.

 

[americanwoman]

No it doesn't cross the line. Those men make me sick. I saw once where this guy took his three year old son with him thinking he was going in to have sex with a 13 year old boy. I am so glad that guy got put on national tv and humiliated for the scum he is.


It's crazy how long this show has been on for and it's almost like shooting fish in a bucket. They set up house and continuously have guys coming in round the clock to try and meet up with minors. And it's even funnier when the guys talk about they watch the show, how they don't want something like that to happen to them, but they still show up. Then when they ask what they intended to do they always reply, nothing or wait for their parents to come home. Right, so that's why they have the car full of beer and condoms.

I would love it if dateline came to my city and exposed all the perverts living around here. More power to them, I say!

 

[jamesrage]

I am too, since liberal networks think pedophiles should be able to act out their fantasies. :roll:

Grow up, jamesrage.

Considering the fact liberal anti-American organizations like the ACLU defend these types of scum and and try to tear down Jessica and megan laws and that even posters here whine about entrapment. One can easily argue that certain liberals think these scum should be allowed to run around freely to solicit children for sex..

 

[jamesrage]

Just to clear up a few misconceptions that have been posted here: These men can get prosecuted and they do.

A number of people have posted here regarding intent and have indicated that unless a sexual act occurs there is no crime. That is not true.

In California, for example, there is a crime PC 288 (Lewd conduct on a child). This charge requires a sexual act.

However, what these men do is prosecuted under PC 288.2 (solicitication of a child with the intention of seducing).

This charge does not require a sexual act NOR does it require that there actually be a child. Legal impossibility is not a defense to the charge. All that is required is that the individual solicit someone whom they believe to be a child and then an action to further that intent (such as showing up in the house).

This charge is a FELONY (punishable by state prison) and does require sex registration.

Right now I have a client who is being prosecuted under this section even though he never took an act in furtherance (went to the location). His contention is that he was on a chat-room website and was engaging only in fantasy. He says that he didn't believe the person on the other end was actually a child, only one fantasizing as such.

Despite whether we think that conduct is repulsive or not, the law does not criminalize mere fantasy and I expect that his case will be dismissed. The DA is pushing it though to see how far the law can be pushed.

As the show pointed out in many states just the act of soliciting a child online is a felony,the pedophile in many states does not have to show up to the house.

 

[Skip]

Considering the fact liberal anti-American organizations like the ACLU defend these types of scum and and try to tear down Jessica and megan laws and that even posters here whine about entrapment. One can easily argue that certain liberals think these scum should be allowed to run around freely to solicit children for sex..

Well I guess that makes sense, if you believe that civil liberties are anti-American.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Soliciting a child for sex is doing something.Soliciting a minor for sex in many states is a criminal act as well as showing up to a minor's house with intentions to engage in statutory rape.

I agree....YIKES! These perverts are online in chat rooms writing truly dirty instant messages to people they think are 12 or 13 years old and that is illegal. They're soliciting sex with 12 year olds!

I like watching the show. It's so interesting that virtually every guy nabbed is in denial and they always claim they've never done anything like this before!

 

[Vader]

A.The undecovers are not cops.
B.Even if they were cops,they were not luring anyone to solicit children for sex because the individual was already trying to find children to engage in sex with.
c.It is no different than any other sting operation to catch criminals.

entrapment - Definitions from Dictionary.com
1. the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime.
2. an act or process of entrapping.
3. a state of being entrapped.

Even if the bullets are real you would probably get off with self defense in that scenario.

Actually, the undercovers are usually agents of the police, which means they are governed by the same set of rules.

I dislike the crimes these perverts commit but I cannot stand by and watch while the police violate one rule to enforce another.

:mrgreen:

 

[26 X World Champs]

Actually, the undercovers are usually agents of the police, which means they are governed by the same set of rules.

I dislike the crimes these perverts commit but I cannot stand by and watch while the police violate one rule to enforce another.

:mrgreen:

There are no laws being violated, ever. Since the show started they have a 100% conviction rate for anyone who has been tried. No exceptions, none thrown out for entrapment or anything else.

 

[disneydude]

Entrapment is a legal fiction. The laws governing entrapment have been gutted by conservative courts to the point that almost anything that police do does not amount to entrapment under the law. (I am not making any direct comment on my personal belief regarding whether these types of police action are entrapment....its just a generality).

As far as the solicitation being a felony in and of itself as JR states....I would be interested in seeing those laws because I think that they could be in conflict with constitutional protections.
For instance, whether you find it reprehensible or not, it is not illegal to fantasize about having sex with minors, children for that matter. On the one extreme, many adults will role play in sex.....(Who's your Daddy)....on the other extreme, some people will have cybersex/phone sex...playing out this fantasy. Personally....it doesn't tug my chain....but it is not illegal....and so laws that would make that a Felony....I think would be in direct conflict with constitutional protection. Now...if the person sends pornographic materials to the person on the other end...without taking steps to ensure that the person in not really a minor...that conduct can be criminalized (in law...it is a misdemeanor)...

And to clear up a common misconception that right-wingers love to throw out against the ACLU. The ACLU does not condone or protect child molestors. The ACLU will step in where laws encroach on civil liberties as many of these laws will. Personally I have no problem with megan's law, but Jessica's law is a horribly written law and catches a lot of people in its nets that really don't deserve to be.

 

[RightOfCenter]

And to clear up a common misconception that right-wingers love to throw out against the ACLU. The ACLU does not condone or protect child molestors. The ACLU will step in where laws encroach on civil liberties as many of these laws will. Personally I have no problem with megan's law, but Jessica's law is a horribly written law and catches a lot of people in its nets that really don't deserve to be.

Like who?

God damn 10 character minimum!