Titus 1:12

[Arlette]

What is a Christian to make of "One of Crete's own prophets has said it: Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, idle bellies. He has surly told the truth."

 

[Cordelier]

Well, what can you say?

Cretans will be cretins.

 

[Arlette]

Well, what can you say?

Cretans will be cretins.

A paradox in the Bible?

 

[HIP56948]

..."are always liars" They're always liars? Do they call themselves liars?

 

[Cordelier]

A paradox in the Bible?

Whodathunkit?

Like Proverbs 26:4-5... what's the deal with that?

 

[Daisy]

What is a Christian to make of "One of Crete's own prophets has said it: Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, idle bellies. He has surly told the truth."

Paul was merely referring to the reputation that Crete had long held...the untruthfulness of its people was so proverbial that Paul even quoted their own prophet in verse 12...this was the environment that the congregations of Crete had sprung up, making it especially needful for the believers “to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion,” as Paul reminded them in Titus 2:12...

 

[Crovax]

..."are always liars" They're always liars? Do they call themselves liars?

The original translation is lawyers but they are one in the same

 

[Arlette]

Paul was merely referring to the reputation that Crete had long held...the untruthfulness of its people was so proverbial that Paul even quoted their own prophet in verse 12...this was the environment that the congregations of Crete had sprung up, making it especially needful for the believers “to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion,” as Paul reminded them in Titus 2:12...

But if all Cretans are liars, so is the Cretan prophet

 

[EdwinWillers]

Opinions vary somewhat but generally follow a consistent theme - here is a good compendium of the most common ones: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/1-12.htm

The context is Paul instructing Titus, whom he left in Crete, on how to appoint elders in all the churches in that region. He describes several key characteristics they should address, the last of which Paul addresses in verse 9 - the ability to "exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict." And in verses 10 and 11 he describes such people: "rebellious," "empty talkers," who were upsetting many in the churches teaching things they shouldn't for the "sake of sordid gain." Apparently the prosperity gospel has very early beginnings.

Some of the commentators mention a certain Epimenides of Gnossos, citing a variety of sources from the period. It seems there were not only the usual [human] issues, but cultural issues as well to over come when dealing with the Cretans - each culture having its own peculiar set of vices to address, be it materialism and greed for some (e.g. the Laodiceans), or rampant lasciviousness for others (e.g. the Corinthians) - the Cretans were apparently afflicted with the vices of lying and deceit.

 

[Logicman]

One of the classic scriptures that helps define the God-hating, stiff-necked, cretinous crowd, is 1 John 2:22 (NIV) -

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son."

 

[tosca1]

What is a Christian to make of "One of Crete's own prophets has said it: Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, idle bellies. He has surly told the truth."

That's a statement made by Paul, quoting what a famous native Cretan, Epimenides, wrote criticizing his own people: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons”
The Roman poet named Ovid had also called Cretans as "mendax Creta," or “lying Crete.”


Beginning in Titus 1:6, Paul details for Titus the qualifications for elders, one of which is the ability to “encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (verse 9).
He goes on to say that in Crete there were many rebellious people and deceivers who must be silenced as they were teaching falsehood for financial gain (verses 10–11).


All people are guilty of lying at one time or another, but not all are habitual liars, as it seems the ancient Cretans were. Lying seems to have been a governing vice among them.
They were not only guilty of it in certain specific instances, but always.
They were, in the vernacular of psychologists, compulsive liars, those who lie even when there is no external motive for the lie.
Lying was their fallback behavior in all instances.

The Bible tells us that God hates lying (Proverbs 6:16–17), that liars will not escape punishment (Proverbs 19:5), and that their ultimate end is in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
Knowing this, Paul urged Titus to admonish the Cretans in the strictest way possible, in order to save their souls from hell.

What does it mean that all Cretans are liars? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that all Cretans are liars? Why does Paul quote from Epimenides in Titus 1:12?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[tosca1]

But if all Cretans are liars, so is the Cretan prophet

Of course, not.
Epimenides was simply stating what majority of Cretans are.
Surely when we say Democrats or Republicans are liars - we don't really mean each and every one of them!

 

[Arlette]

Of course, not.
Epimenides was simply stating what majority of Cretans are.
Surely when we say Democrats or Republicans are liars - we don't really mean each and every one of them!

Nope. Not the most, but all. Ergo a paradox.
It's obviously false. WRONG. The word of God WRONG!!!!!!

 

[tosca1]

Nope. Not the most, but all. Ergo a paradox.
It's obviously false. WRONG. The word of God WRONG!!!!!!

Go back to that site where you mined this paradox, and explain this to them:


The paradox is that Epimenides himself was a Cretan. If all Cretans are liars, then Epimenides is also a liar.
If Epiminedes is a liar, then the statement that “all Cretans are liars” must be a lie, which would mean all Cretans tell the truth, which means Epimenides tells the truth,
which means the statement “all Cretans are liars” is both true and false.

The “Epimenides Paradox” has become the basis for a whole series of logical puzzles called “liars’ paradoxes.”
It’s a fun little game to play with pure logic, and several people have come up with logical solutions for the paradox, but it has little to do with the intent either Epimenides or Paul had when making the original statement.

When Epimenides wrote “all Cretans are liars,” he was using a literary technique called hyperbole, or over-exaggeration, in order to make a point about Cretan society.
He was saying Cretan society is characteristically dishonest. It would be like a Chinese writer saying “the Chinese are atheists.”
Obviously not all Chinese people throughout the world are atheists, but, generally speaking, modern Chinese society promotes atheism.

Paul was a highly educated man. He was trained as a Pharisee and knew the Jewish Scriptures and history, and he was also apparently trained in Greek philosophy and thought.

What is the Epimenides Paradox? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Epimenides Paradox? Why does Paul mention Epimenides in Titus 1:12? Are all Cretans liars?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Arlette]

lol
The Bible says what it says. Deal with it

 

[tosca1]

lol
The Bible says what it says. Deal with it

The Bible say so many things - like, the springs in the ocean! Who would've thought that's a fact?
The Bible doesn't give all the details - blow by blow. If you hadn't noticed.


I'm explaining it to you. I even gave you the link of the article - it explains along with support from the Scriptures.
It also explains what that paradox is all about!

You're the one who has a problem dealing with the explanation.


What? You're going to pull a Smalley on me now?

 

[Daisy]

But if all Cretans are liars, so is the Cretan prophet

Either the Cretan prophet is telling the truth or he is lying...evidence/history says he is telling the truth...

 

[Arlette]

The Bible say so many things - like, the springs in the ocean! Who would've thought that's a fact?
The Bible doesn't give all the details - blow by blow. If you hadn't noticed.


I'm explaining it to you. I even gave you the link of the article - it explains along with support from the Scriptures.
It also explains what that paradox is all about!

You're the one who has a problem dealing with the explanation.


What? You're going to pull a Smalley on me now?

A cheap play of words - in the Bible. Imagine that. That's just what an ordinary human would do. And Paul couldn't resist to slap a "this is true" at the end of it.

I'm having fun. How about you?

 

[Arlette]

Either the Cretan prophet is telling the truth or he is lying...evidence/history says he is telling the truth...

History proves that all Cretans are lazy fat liars?

 

[Overitall]

But if all Cretans are liars, so is the Cretan prophet

Maybe he was. But even liars can tell the truth occasionally. Even about themselves.

 

[Arlette]

Maybe he was. But even liars can tell the truth occasionally. Even about themselves.

Of course. I'm not arguing that point. The point is that the Bible is the word of God, supposedly. Dumb mistakes like Titus 1:12 raise questions, or should raise questions if Christians were allowed to question it

 

[Daisy]

Of course. I'm not arguing that point. The point is that the Bible is the word of God, supposedly. Dumb mistakes like Titus 1:12 raise questions, or should raise questions if Christians were allowed to question it

Yet, the Bible also makes it obvious Paul was not agreeing with any all-encompassing racial or ethnic slur against the Cretans, neither was the prophet making one, since he was a Cretan himself...Paul knew that on Crete there were fine Christians whom God had approved and anointed with His holy spirit...Acts 2:5,11,33

 

[Arlette]

Yet, the Bible also makes it obvious Paul was not agreeing with any all-encompassing racial or ethnic slur against the Cretans, neither was the prophet making one, since he was a Cretan himself...Paul knew that on Crete there were fine Christians whom God had approved and anointed with His holy spirit...Acts 2:5,11,33

Knowledge of the truth supposedly leads to godliness. Paul must have known full well that his screech didn't apply to any and all Cretans.

 

[Overitall]

Of course. I'm not arguing that point. The point is that the Bible is the word of God, supposedly. Dumb mistakes like Titus 1:12 raise questions, or should raise questions if Christians were allowed to question it

Where did you get the idea that they can't question it? There are many examples in the book itself where people have questioned God. He's use to being questioned.

My point was that even a liar could call himself and others liars. I see no paradox in that.

 

[Arlette]

Where did you get the idea that they can't question it? There are many examples in the book itself where people have questioned God. He's use to being questioned.

My point was that even a liar could call himself and others liars. I see no paradox in that.

Proverbs 3:5-6