Tillerson says US embassy unlikely to move to Jerusalem before 2020 [W:24]

[laska]

Did you know that there's 136 nations around the world that disagree with you? All 136 of them have established bilateral relations with what they consider the nation of Palestine, which is populated by millions of people who consider themselves Palestinians.

And does your post in any way whatsoever excuse Israel from disallowing chocolate, toys, A4 paper, goats, sewing machines, cooking spices, and the rest of that list from those in the Gaza Strip? Exactly how did preventing the non-military-use items on that list protect Israel? Seems to me that you really don't care what Israel does, that no matter how what they do, no matter how nonsensical their actions, no matter how wrong they are...you'll stand by them without question.

Almost all Americans (including myself) support the right of Israel to exist...but that does NOT give Israel carte blanche to commit wrong just to hurt others. Perhaps it would do you good to learn that most Muslims aren't out to destroy Judaism (Jews are a protected class in Iran by order of Ayatollah Khomenei, btw), but they hate Zionism. There's a big difference between Judaism and Zionism, for Zionism is essentially one denomination of a religion. Here, educate yourself as to why many - including the Catholic church and some Jews - oppose Zionism. Hint: it's NOT because Zionists are Jews.

Wonder what those nations and UN would think of this dedicatory prayer?Orson Hyde's prayer of dedication on the Mount of Olives

I know, not much. But I do!

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Wonder what those nations and UN would think of this dedicatory prayer?Orson Hyde's prayer of dedication on the Mount of Olives

I know, not much. But I do!

I wonder what you would have thought if you and your family lived in Palestine in 1917, and your family had been living here for many centuries, and you knew that Britain had promised independence to Palestine, and that at the time, there were only 24,000 Jews living in all of Palestine...but then out comes the Balfour Declaration which essentially made the earlier British promise worthless, and you found out that the Palestinian people would never have a homeland of their own?

That's why the Palestinians call Israel the "twice-promised land", since Britain first promised it to them, and then decided to give it to the Jews who at the time comprised only a very small percentage of the population. The plight of the Jews in the rest of the world was NOT the fault of the Palestinians...but Britain effectively took their land and gave it to the Jews.

Now, does this make the Jews bad people? No...but neither does it excuse those things that the Jews have done wrong against the Palestinians...and yes, they've done quite a bit of wrong against the Palestinians. Unfortunately, we here in America get to hear what the Palestinians do that is wrong, but we rarely hear what the Israelis do that is wrong. So does this make the Brits the bad person? No, not even they can really be blamed, since Chaim Weizmann essentially saved the Royal Navy by developing a synthetic gunpowder during the U-boat blockade in WWI, and as a result the Crown offered him whatever was in their power to give, and he asked for a homeland for the Jews. He was made the first president of Israel in 1946.

So who's to blame? There's lots of blame to go around...but it is wrong to see the entire matter as anything but a swirl of different shades of gray.

 

[laska]

I wonder what you would have thought if you and your family lived in Palestine in 1917, and your family had been living here for many centuries, and you knew that Britain had promised independence to Palestine, and that at the time, there were only 24,000 Jews living in all of Palestine...but then out comes the Balfour Declaration which essentially made the earlier British promise worthless, and you found out that the Palestinian people would never have a homeland of their own?

That's why the Palestinians call Israel the "twice-promised land", since Britain first promised it to them, and then decided to give it to the Jews who at the time comprised only a very small percentage of the population. The plight of the Jews in the rest of the world was NOT the fault of the Palestinians...but Britain effectively took their land and gave it to the Jews.

Now, does this make the Jews bad people? No...but neither does it excuse those things that the Jews have done wrong against the Palestinians...and yes, they've done quite a bit of wrong against the Palestinians. Unfortunately, we here in America get to hear what the Palestinians do that is wrong, but we rarely hear what the Israelis do that is wrong. So does this make the Brits the bad person? No, not even they can really be blamed, since Chaim Weizmann essentially saved the Royal Navy by developing a synthetic gunpowder during the U-boat blockade in WWI, and as a result the Crown offered him whatever was in their power to give, and he asked for a homeland for the Jews. He was made the first president of Israel in 1946.

So who's to blame? There's lots of blame to go around...but it is wrong to see the entire matter as anything but a swirl of different shades of gray.

I am sure there is blame to go around and neither side is likely faultless. I believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect. I wish both the Palestinians and the Jewish people peace and freedom.

I simply believe the restoration of Israel to the lands of her inheritance with Jerusalem as her capital in these last days is God's will. I don't think this means the Palestinians cannot have freedom and peace. But the path their leaders have been on is to their detriment imho.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I am sure there is blame to go around and neither side is likely faultless. I believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect. I wish both the Palestinians and the Jewish people peace and freedom.

I simply believe the restoration of Israel to the lands of her inheritance with Jerusalem as her capital in these last days is God's will. I don't think this means the Palestinians cannot have freedom and peace. But the path their leaders have been on is to their detriment imho.

But that's the problem - who gets to decide what's God's will?

Please understand - I'm a strong Christian. But if the Bible teaches us anything, it's that we have no clue about when or the manner in which prophecies will be fulfilled (remember, even Jesus said that only the Father - and not even Jesus himself - knows the day of His return). That's why I think it's a great mistake in the eyes of God to try to enable the fulfillment of prophecies by our own efforts...especially when such "enabling" entails committing evils against others. There are many evangelists who try to tell each other that Trump's acknowledgement of Jerusalem as Israel's capital will hasten the end of days...but again, I strongly, strongly doubt that God somehow needs our help to enable a prophecy. God will do what God will do, when and where He decides to do so, regardless of what we do or don't do. Our duty is NOT to try to influence or enable His decisions as the Evangelicals seem to believe they're doing with supporting Israel, but to propagate the word, to help lead others to salvation.

That being said, our problem is finding which church out there is the true Church. The Bible tells us that we are to think the same thing, to not have divisions among us, and Romans 10 tells us that the Gospel is preached only by those who are sent to preach the Gospel. Those two facts tell me that there's only one true Church, that it is a fallacious idea to think that the denomination one belongs to doesn't matter.

I hope that you can see by the above that I take religion very seriously indeed. I am a member of the Church of Christ.

 

[laska]

But that's the problem - who gets to decide what's God's will?

Please understand - I'm a strong Christian. But if the Bible teaches us anything, it's that we have no clue about when or the manner in which prophecies will be fulfilled (remember, even Jesus said that only the Father - and not even Jesus himself - knows the day of His return). That's why I think it's a great mistake in the eyes of God to try to enable the fulfillment of prophecies by our own efforts...especially when such "enabling" entails committing evils against others. There are many evangelists who try to tell each other that Trump's acknowledgement of Jerusalem as Israel's capital will hasten the end of days...but again, I strongly, strongly doubt that God somehow needs our help to enable a prophecy. God will do what God will do, when and where He decides to do so, regardless of what we do or don't do. Our duty is NOT to try to influence or enable His decisions as the Evangelicals seem to believe they're doing with supporting Israel, but to propagate the word, to help lead others to salvation.

That being said, our problem is finding which church out there is the true Church. The Bible tells us that we are to think the same thing, to not have divisions among us, and Romans 10 tells us that the Gospel is preached only by those who are sent to preach the Gospel. Those two facts tell me that there's only one true Church, that it is a fallacious idea to think that the denomination one belongs to doesn't matter.

I hope that you can see by the above that I take religion very seriously indeed. I am a member of the Church of Christ.

Sorry for getting back so late.

No one decides God's will but Him. And God sees all things past, present, future, and the date of the Second Coming I am sure He knew before the foundation of the earth so no one is going to speed it up up or delay it. I believe God gives us signs and events to show that something is near to happening or has happened. The exact date of the Second Coming is not klnown but He has give us signs to know when it is at the doors. An example where the scriptures give us an exact date on a prophecy is the 70 weeks prophecy in the Book of Daniel which gives us the exact martyrdom date of Christ.


You should check out The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! I bear my testimony it is the true Church. Prayer and asking God to help you find the true Church is the key. Mormon.org is a great site to learn about the beliefs of the Church https://www.mormon.org/ .

 

[Somerville]

The problem I see for America is the growing influence of a minority, a minority made up of those who call themselves "evangelical Christians". They apparently believe, that if and when the US actually moves its embassy into Jerusalem, such an action will instigate the "last days", the End of Time during which their lord and saviour - some guy named Jesus, will return to this world. All of those who believe as they do will be lifted into heaven and the remainder of humans will die in really nasty ways. Those Jews, the people the evangelicals tell us must be allowed to claim all of Jerusalem -- well, only 144,000 of them will be saved.

VP Mike Pence is one of those evangelicals.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Sorry for getting back so late.

No one decides God's will but Him. And God sees all things past, present, future, and the date of the Second Coming I am sure He knew before the foundation of the earth so no one is going to speed it up up or delay it. I believe God gives us signs and events to show that something is near to happening or has happened. The exact date of the Second Coming is not klnown but He has give us signs to know when it is at the doors. An example where the scriptures give us an exact date on a prophecy is the 70 weeks prophecy in the Book of Daniel which gives us the exact martyrdom date of Christ.


You should check out The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! I bear my testimony it is the true Church. Prayer and asking God to help you find the true Church is the key. Mormon.org is a great site to learn about the beliefs of the Church https://www.mormon.org/ .

Nice try

Both the Mormons and the Church of which I am a member place a great deal of emphasis on propagation, and both you and I believe that there is only one true Church and one true set of beliefs, so while I'll never agree with your beliefs, I can certainly understand and respect your motivation and intent. Of course I realize that it's highly unlikely that you'll accept my invitation (after all, I'm not accepting yours), but please do consider yourself invited - even if you're far from any of our locales (you're in 160 countries, we're in about 110 at last count), we can make it happen.

That being said, the fact that Jesus' return is "at the very doors" doesn't really tell us much except to encourage us to always strive to serve Him and our Father in Heaven, and to be always ready for the day of Jesus' return. The reason that doesn't tell us much is because of II Peter 3:8-9 - "8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

So time is very, very different in the eyes of Jesus and of God...which means that in our sense of time, Jesus' Second Advent could be five minutes from now, or it could be millions of years from now, or perhaps not until the sun has expanded beyond our planet's orbit (since the verse just prior to those above says "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."). But I make no assumption that that is in any way what will happen. What's more, since the Bible says that no one other than the Father - not even Jesus Himself - knows the date of Jesus' return, this also means that Jesus cannot be omniscient. Think on the implications of that one! That, btw, is one of the teachings of the Church - in fact, the reason I stay strong in the Church is because I take the destination of my soul (and those of my family) very seriously indeed, and the Church is the only one whose main teachings I cannot disprove to my own satisfaction - the proofs the Church presents are simply too strong, and too easily verifiable for me to deny. I can disprove all other churches and religions, but I cannot disprove the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ). Disclaimer: I've been Southern Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, and looked into Catholicism, Presbyterianism, and Mormonism.

That being said, will I go into detail with you? No. I cannot do that. Those who would be saved must receive the Gospel and be baptized, and only those who are sent to preach the Gospel may preach (see Romans 10). All I can do is to invite, and to give the reasons why I believe.

 

[laska]

Nice try

I did review your link. It states the following about the foundation of your church: "The Iglesia Ni Cristo was first preached by the late Brother Felix. Y. Manalo in the Philippine capital city of Manila. Its first local congregation was established in Punta, Sta. Ana. On July 27, 1914, the Church was registered with the Philippine government. In 1915, Brother Felix Manalo, as the first Executive Minister of the Church, started training ministers to assist him in the propagation of the gospel. By 1918, ministers and volunteer preachers were being sent to provinces around Manila. In its tenth year, the first ecclesiastical district was organized in the Pampanga province. "

I believe the NT Church that Christ set up was the one true Church and when Christ ascended to Heaven the organization was that He called and ordained a First Presidency that consisted of the chief apostle Peter as Prophet, and his two counselors James and John filled out the First Presidency of the Church, and the a Quorum of 12 Apostles. All 15 of these Apostles had the Melchizadek priesthood authority conferred onto them, which gave the divine authority to represent God on earth and to perform necessary ordinances pertaining to eternal life, they each had the gift of the Holy Ghost conferred on them and they were guided by the Holy Ghost and direct revelation from God in guiding the Church, they all held the keys of the kingdom of God on the earth.

Christ warned "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."(Acts 20:29) The "sheep's clothing" implies these false prophets and religious leaders would be Christians, they would be quoting and claiming to be the real followers and leaders of Christ just as the scribes and Pharicess quoted scripture and clamed to be the followers of Abraham and Moses. While large swaths of the membership were being fooled by these false teachers because they broke their covenants and did not have the Holy Ghost guiding them, the faithful members of the Church with the Apostles were being hunted and killed. Their destiny was to be like their master, martyr's for the truth and inheritors of eternal life. So by around the end of the 1st century AD after the Apostles are killed, the one true divinely authorized Church was taken off the earth.

Once the true Church with the Melchizadek priesthood is taken off the earth no amount of reform can bring it back. Only the Heavens can restore it. Even if someone correctly figured out all the doctrines, it is still not the divinely authorized Church guided by prophets and apostles called directly by God, given authority, and who receive direct revelation from the Lord.

 

[laska]

Nice try

The first vision from a 14 yo boy confused about which of the Christian Churches were the true church, and inspired by James 1:5, asked God: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

In May 1829 John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood to the earth in visiting Joseph and his scribe Oliver Cowdery and conferring it to them. they then had the divine authority to baptize. A little later Peter, James, and John visited Joseph and Oliver and restored the Melchizadek priesthood to the earth: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.68-72?lang=eng#67

Elijah returned to the Kirtland temple on Easter Sunday, 1836, the first temple of the Lord in this dispensation, and restored priesthood keys. Moses also visited the temple that day conferring keys to the Church for the gathering of Israel. Christ also visited the temple that day: Symbolism of Passover

1841-The apostle Orson Hyde is sent by the prophet Joseph Smith by revelation from the Lord to dedicate the land of Israel for the return of he Jewish people to their homeland.

In ancient Israel when Israel had been in bondage and a state of apostasy in Egypt, God restored the kingdom of God by raising up a prophet in Moses, who saw God face to face, restored new scripture in the Torah, and there was an exodus to a Promise Land where to escape their enemies a prophet of the Lord on Passover led them in a journey across a vast wilderness to the Promise Land, where they settled next to the second largest inland lake of salt in the world(The Lord in the scriptures calls His covenant people the salt of the earth), and they built a great temple to the Lord, and made the desert bloom.

In the last days God restored the Kingdom of God once again to the earth as Daniel prophesied He would do in interpreting the King of Babylon's dream, by raising a latter day descendant of the Biblical Joseph, Joseph Smith, who saw God face to face, restored new scripture in the stick of Ephraim(Book of Mormon), and there was an exodus to a Promise Land where a prophet of the Lord during Passover led the saints on a journey across the American wilderness to a Promise Land, where they settled next to the largest inland lake of salt in the world, built a great temple to the Lord, and made the desert bloom.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just like Christ's Church in the New Testament, is blessed with living Prophet and apostles guided by direct revelation from the Lord. They are his special witnesses on the earth:https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles?lang=eng

As far as your comments on not knowing the Second Coming is close, the LDS know from modern revelation that the earth from Adam to the end of the Christ millennial reign is 7000 years, and the Second Coming will come some time in the beginning of the seventh seal ie the last 1000 years of the earth's temporal existence, in which time we are in.