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Thug Politics - Greece

TheDemSocialist

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Greece must cut 4,000 jobs to earn its next bailout payment. But with each cut the government's control in the country is weakening, as the desperate populace turn to vigilante governance, Golden Dawn style.

As cuts bite ever deeper in Greece, many Greeks feel that the government can no longer provide the protection and services needed for a strong civil society. And in this frightening power vacuum the people have turned to another power: "If I get burgled or I have a problem and I call Golden Dawn, in zero time they are here," says local shop owner, Mathina. But Golden Dawn aren't just an over-active neighbourhood watch: "We are ready to open the ovens! We will turn them into soup." It's statements like these, from a Golden Dawn member running for parliament, that has immigrants in Greece living in fear. And their threats are not idle. Immigrants dragged out of A&E, businesses ransacked and racially-segregated soup kitchens have become commonplace. The checking of people's papers on the streets is scarily reminiscent of Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia. "Greeks are hungry, foreigners are hungry. In the end one will eat the other," Mathina says simply. As more locals like Mathina turn to Golden Dawn for support it begs the question; at what cost is Greece's tough economic medicine coming?


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Thug Politics - Greece - YouTube

A short documentary on the political party Golden Dawn in Greece, a far right, neo-nazi, racist organization. And somehow this scum fascist party has seats in parliament. Disgusting. Anyways **** these fascist neo-nazi turds.
This is what happens when the economy is so terrible, people dont focus on the main causes of the problem and instead like to put their blames on others, and in this case its immigrants, and minorities.
 

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Video @: [/FONT][/COLOR]Thug Politics - Greece - YouTube

A short documentary on the political party Golden Dawn in Greece, a far right, neo-nazi, racist organization. And somehow this scum fascist party has seats in parliament. Disgusting. Anyways **** these fascist neo-nazi turds.
This is what happens when the economy is so terrible, people dont focus on the main causes of the problem and instead like to put their blames on others, and in this case its immigrants, and minorities.
You are going to be spit vitriol against the golden dawn party... but when the communist party in Greece SPYRZA or wahtever it's called, has a good run, you're overflowing with joy.
 

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In order to have enough money for survive the next year, they cut the possibility of grow... Well, in like 3-4 years Greece will be out...
 

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You spend yourself into oblivion by stupid economic polices and foolish social spending, then you expect to be able to go to others and demand they bail you out AND that they contineu to allow the same kind of stupid business practices that put you in that situation...and you blame the lender. Huh.

Hey...how about you 'loan' me 100k. I'll pay you back someday...honest...
 

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You spend yourself into oblivion by stupid economic polices and foolish social spending, then you expect to be able to go to others and demand they bail you out AND that they contineu to allow the same kind of stupid business practices that put you in that situation...and you blame the lender. Huh.

Hey...how about you 'loan' me 100k. I'll pay you back someday...honest...
That's true. But that's not about you (single person) lending me (single person) money. It's more complicated. Because the Money the state borrowed went to the banks, and the same banks were paying back the loan.

Now, I agree... You can't just withdraw money and then justify yourself saying "i can't pay back", but is this the way to solve the problem? Cutting jobs? How can they earn something to escape from this situation?
 

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That's true. But that's not about you (single person) lending me (single person) money. It's more complicated. Because the Money the state borrowed went to the banks, and the same banks were paying back the loan.

Now, I agree... You can't just withdraw money and then justify yourself saying "i can't pay back", but is this the way to solve the problem? Cutting jobs? How can they earn something to escape from this situation?
Solving the 'problem'...thats what we call THEIR problem. They made the mess...they have to fix the mess. Its not just in personal finances...it happens in corporations as well. Corporations mismanage hiring, bring on far too much administration and management, and when they go to file re-org bankruptcy they have to review every position, and they HAVE to make cuts. If they dont make cuts, they dont become solvent, they just have the banks give them more money to maintain status quo which is what got them there in the first place. Greece cannot solve their problems by simply demanding their creditors give them more money to pay for their current inefficient system. Where is the change? Where is the payback opportunity?
 

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Solving the 'problem'...thats what we call THEIR problem. They made the mess...they have to fix the mess. Its not just in personal finances...it happens in corporations as well. Corporations mismanage hiring, bring on far too much administration and management, and when they go to file re-org bankruptcy they have to review every position, and they HAVE to make cuts. If they dont make cuts, they dont become solvent, they just have the banks give them more money to maintain status quo which is what got them there in the first place. Greece cannot solve their problems by simply demanding their creditors give them more money to pay for their current inefficient system. Where is the change? Where is the payback opportunity?
" How can they earn something to escape from this situation? "
I didn't get the answer...
 

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" How can they earn something to escape from this situation? "
I didn't get the answer...
Again...thats GREECES problem to figure out, not their creditors. Their creditors are not responsible for the creation of the problem, nor the solution. You want their money? You'd best figure that part out. You think the banks are on the hook to provide jobs when corporations have to lay people off? Thats the harsh reality that hits you when you carelessly spend yourself into oblivion. Dont worry...we as a country are about 10 years behind them and so we will have the opportunity to figure that out as well.

Cant speak for Greece...but if we had to lay off 4 thousand (or 40,000 more likely) government employees then the solution is rather simple. Stop backfilling positions when they retire. Stop allowing people to retire and then turnright around and come back into the same job in a different capacity and draw double salaries. Oh...and clean up the illegal immigrant workforce as well.
 

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You spend yourself into oblivion by stupid economic polices and foolish social spending, then you expect to be able to go to others and demand they bail you out AND that they contineu to allow the same kind of stupid business practices that put you in that situation...and you blame the lender. Huh.

Hey...how about you 'loan' me 100k. I'll pay you back someday...honest...
This thread is about how far right political groups are gaining ground in Greece. far right populist parties like the Golden Dawn. It's not about the greek economic situation, which is bad, but yeah.
 

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This thread is about how far right political groups are gaining ground in Greece. far right populist parties like the Golden Dawn. It's not about the greek economic situation, which is bad, but yeah.
Well there is a good Channel 4 video on that aspect from 30th May. Muslim Associations have warned Muslims they will be slaughtered like chickens if they remain. Meanwhile Black people are working on their own safety and have created 'black panther' groups.

Standing up to Golden Dawn in Greece - Channel 4 News

What you mentioned about people criticising them and not the left, I think in Greece the situation is a bit different. From another forum it appears that one of the problems is that everyone is so upset at the situation that a lot of them just think, as long as it is not the current system and for that in an indirect way support them. Economic despair seems to be what has led to this deeply concerning situation.
 
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Rainman05

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Well there is a good Channel 4 video on that aspect from 30th May. Muslim Associations have warned Muslims they will be slaughtered like chickens if they remain. Meanwhile Black people are working on their own safety and have created 'black panther' groups.

Standing up to Golden Dawn in Greece - Channel 4 News

What you mentioned about people criticising them and not the left, I think in Greece the situation is a bit different. From another forum it appears that one of the problems is that everyone is so upset at the situation that a lot of them just think, as long as it is not the current system and for that in an indirect way support them. Economic despair seems to be what has led to this deeply concerning situation.
The black guy seems very racist. He says he considers himself greek because he lived there from the time he was 8 months old, but he is racist as hell. Ofc, the guys who he is threatened by are also racists, but he is also one of them, just on the other team.

Also, in one minute, the guy says that the police are supporting the golden dawn... the next minute you see coverage that the police broke the soup kitchen the golden dawn set up.

Now I don't speak Greek, but if the translation at min 5:40 is correct, than that's just plain old disgusting.

So all in all. It's a mess. I don't blame the police for trying to find out illegal immigrants and sending them out of the country. Illegal immigrants don't belong in the country so I do not lament for them at all. From my POV, they are solely responsible for the wave of anti-immigrant feeling that exists in Greece and the golden dawn is just the effect of this wave. If there would be no illegal immigration, even if there were anti-immigrant sentinment, it would be a lot reduced.

Legal immigrants do. I lament for the legal immigrants who are being targetted by the golden dawn, obviously, they target people racially. So whether you are in the country legally or illegally is the same thing for them, they won't stop and ask you what's what, like the police do. They're just brutes.

Also, I condemn the report for being biased. They sent a black reporter so that he could only get one side of the story. They should have done their best to get the other side of the story if they wanted to be objective.
 

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You are going to be spit vitriol against the golden dawn party... but when the communist party in Greece SPYRZA or wahtever it's called, has a good run, you're overflowing with joy.
I dont see SYRIZA (which is currently a left wing coalition which will become a party in a month officially), or the Communist Party (KKE) spewing hate rhetoric..
 

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The black guy seems very racist.He says he considers himself greek because he lived there from the time he was 8 months old, but he is racist as hell.
You will need to give the quote. I heard him say something like 'don't come for a black man' if that is what you are meaning, but in the circumstances I do not find that racist. He is talking about Golden Dawn attackers.

Yes, the report said he had lived in Greece since he was 8 months but still was unable to get citizenship which is apparently very hard to get in Greece.

Ofc, the guys who he is threatened by are also racists, but he is also one of them, just on the other team.
Like I said you will have to present evidence of why you come to this conclusion. I didn't notice it but my sound is pretty low but we need the evidence. As a black he is under attack.To call him 'racist' for recognising that when it is for that reason that he is being targeted sounds false. If he was being attacked because he was disabled for instance, he could just as easily said 'don't come for the disabled'. He is identifying what it is about him which puts him in danger of attack and that is that he is black.

Also, in one minute, the guy says that the police are supporting the golden dawn... the next minute you see coverage that the police broke the soup kitchen the golden dawn set up.
Seriously have you not been following this at all? The last government which got 18 seats for Golden Dawn was said to have had a high proportion of votes from Police. They frequently help Golden Dawn in their attacks. I thought this was well known. I don't have time to look at the video again but suffice that not all police support Golden Dawn and they do still have to carry out orders given to them. However there is no doubt that the Government needs to do more

Amid a dramatic surge in attacks on immigrants blamed on the neo-Nazis, the debt-stricken country's ruling alliance has come under unprecedented pressure to crack down on racially motivated crimes. Legislation calling for a ban on parties perceived to incite such violence was proposed by prime minister Samaras's two junior leftist partners last month. Claiming that it would "victimise" Golden Dawn, which has 18 of the 300 MPs in parliament, the conservative groups last week rejected the bill as counterproductive. On Friday they put forward their own, less punitive law.

As parliament prepares to debate how best to apply legislation that will curb the party, – measures that have unexpectedly electrified the political scene – the far right is flourishing in the knowledge that, in a country reeling from the twin ills of austerity and despair, it is they who are in the ascendant. Since elections last year, Golden Dawn's appeal has almost doubled, with successive polls showing support of between 11% and 12% for the neo-fascists. Privately pollsters acknowledge that, as Greece's third-strongest and fastest-growing political force, the group could garner as much as 15% of support in local elections next year.
Golden Dawn gathers strength as Greeks desert traditional parties | World news | The Observer

Now I don't speak Greek, but if the translation at min 5:40 is correct, than that's just plain old disgusting.
I went back now but I can't hear it. 'Black *****' is I guess what you are talking about. Personally I found the one's about soap and lampshades even worse.

So all in all. It's a mess. I don't blame the police for trying to find out illegal immigrants and sending them out of the country.
When that involves stopping every non greek lookalike and ignoring general crime I would say it is somewhat intimidating. I'm pretty sure I have read this often ends in beatings though in this instance it was to detention.

Illegal immigrants don't belong in the country so I do not lament for them at all.
Well lots have been killed. I do agree that Greece has a problem being the first place people come to and that is all the more so in the present climate. A Greek suggested a suitable response would be to give them all Greek citizenship. Then they would go on their way.

Getting to the point of putting bombs at fences they come over and killing them when they find them in Greece is certainly a sign of lost law and humanity if that is approved.

From my POV, they are solely responsible for the wave of anti-immigrant feeling that exists in Greece and the golden dawn is just the effect of this wave.
I see but no not agree. You appear to excuse aggressive and criminal behaviour because a person on a different colour has illegally sought refuge from somewhere like Afghanistan. Once you excuse the behaviour, law and decency has gone.

and I will say again I do understand the difficulty that Greece has particularly at the present time with illegals. They are housing most who do not get killed at detention Centres. I have said for a long time that that is an is an issue that needs to be addressed on a wider scale. EU/UN whatever but it is not a reason for acting like a Nazi.
If there would be no illegal immigration, even if there were anti-immigrant sentinment, it would be a lot reduced.
Golden Dawn's attacks are criminal and unacceptable under all conditions. Obviously she is using the issue of illegals to try and get people on her side. Time will tell the extent to which Greeks move over to her. With the police in general on her side that clearly helps her. This is a National Socialist Party just like in Nazi Germany. While it is true that in the 1930's Germany was getting a lot of Jewish immigrants, it is also true that at both times we have been in dramatic recessions. That time it hit Germany worse, this time Greece. The Greek I know who regularly posts online is absolutely clear what he wants is to get rid of the economic system which created it. I suggest it is economics which has led to ordinary poor greeks losing their integrity so much that they would support people like Golden Dawn in any way.

Legal immigrants do. I lament for the legal immigrants who are being targetted by the golden dawn, obviously, they target people racially. So whether you are in the country legally or illegally is the same thing for them, they won't stop and ask you what's what, like the police do. They're just brutes.
Agreed and that was what that film was about. Legal immigrants under attack. Muslim associations telling them that if they stay they are going to be slaughtered like chicken and some black people developing 'black panther' groups to protect themselves. However I think you need to take care not to agree with one form of behaviour attacking and murder with one group of people. Once you agree with doing that with anyone, law and justice have gone.
Also, I condemn the report for being biased. They sent a black reporter so that he could only get one side of the story.
Excuse me, many of our reporters are black. What on earth makes you believe the colour of one's skin only allows one side of a story. Maybe where you come from, but certainly not where I do. However they were reporting on the issue of minorities being attacked.
They should have done their best to get the other side of the story if they wanted to be objective.
Are you meaning from the 'white people' or Golden Dawn. As it is they had done this before. There is one bit which they also put in the one you saw - that is the bit where they are talking about making their bodies into soap and lampshades but in this Golden Dawn members give their genuine views.

Racist, anti-semitic, violent - the true face of Golden Dawn - Channel 4 News

On the making of that one
National Film and Television School student Konstantinos Georgousis spent a month with the organisation last summer, as Greece hovered on the abyss, for his documentary film The Cleaners.
'Shocked by their hostility'

Writing about his experience of making the film, Mr Georgousis says: "I walked through every nook and cranny in the centre of Athens to find these Golden Dawn members.

"I was terrified that these members were proud to express their extreme ideas during campaigning openly in public. I was shocked by their hostility and by the way they treated immigrants in the Athenian squares."

Greek centre-right New Democracy MP Adonis Georgiadis told Channel 4 News the opinions expressed by Golden Dawn supporters in Konstantinos Georgousis's film are not "the opinion of the majority of Greek people".

"Many man people in Greece are very much concerned about the changing of the population because of these illegal immigrants," he said.

"Golden Dawn is a disgrace for our society and our democracy."

But he explained that Greek society was under "major pressure" which prompted some people went to vote for Golden Dawn.
You may also find this site interesting Golden Dawn - International Newsroom
 
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instagramsci

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I dont see SYRIZA (which is currently a left wing coalition which will become a party in a month officially), or the Communist Party (KKE) spewing hate rhetoric..
Or using Nazi symbolism or praising Nazi figures
 

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Or using Nazi symbolism or praising Nazi figures
Or attacking immigrants simply cuz they are immigrants, or going into hospitals trying to find out if the patients are actual citizens, threatening people, or their candidates who run for office spewing hate rhetoric and wanting to "open up the ovens" for immigrants.
 

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Or attacking immigrants simply cuz they are immigrants, or going into hospitals trying to find out if the patients are actual citizens, threatening people, or their candidates who run for office spewing hate rhetoric and wanting to "open up the ovens" for immigrants.
You'd think more americans would be pissed off about it but lol fascism has always been more acceptable than socialism to the west. Or at least western liberals
 

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You'd think more americans would be pissed off about it but lol fascism has always been more acceptable than socialism to the west. Or at least western liberals
How do you work this?
 

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How do you work this?
Liberals are by and large anti-socialist and/or anti-communist. There are a few liberals who have claimed that fascism "saved Europe"
 

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Liberals are by and large anti-socialist and/or anti-communist.
Well I guess first it will depend on what you mean by liberal. If you mean the classic meaning then that would be so, though not for fascism.

If however you are meaning 'liberal' as we in the UK tend to think of it, free speech and being allowed to make one's own life choices to maximum, then it would depend on the person's view of communism whether that was correct. Of course it would be true for communism as it has been seen to this day. Now regarding socialism or social democracy I would suggest that many if not most agree with that in general.

Of interest the Labour Party in the UK would likely never have come into being had it not been for the Liberal Party - at great loss to its own seats in Parliament.

There are a few liberals who have claimed that fascism "saved Europe"
Really? A new one on me. My guess is that they are talking about the aftermath and the formation of the EU from which we have never had a war since. Hence nothing to do with applauding fascism but please feel free to give me the information if different.


The US btw had a strong 1930's fascist movement The Rise of American Fascism

and what we are talking about is one country of Europe, Greece, not Europe. The EU has about 28 countries and of course Europe even more.
 
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I made the statement that one would think Americans would be more angry about Golden Dawn since they are Nazis. America (the US, whatever) as an institution supposedly cant stand Nazis. I just sensed some hypocrisy is all. And social democracy isn't socialism. And communism isn't the USSR
 

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I made the statement that one would think Americans would be more angry about Golden Dawn since they are Nazis. America (the US, whatever) as an institution supposedly cant stand Nazis. I just sensed some hypocrisy is all.
OK I didn't know that. I had not realised your last post was still talking about your first one. Europe has a serious dislike of Nazi's as well.
And social democracy isn't socialism.
no it is
Social democracy is a political ideology that officially has as its goal the establishment of democratic socialism through reformist and gradualist methods.[1]
Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but you are right that is what I was thinking about.

And communism isn't the USSR
Never said it was.
 

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OK I didn't know that. I had not realised your last post was still talking about your first one. Europe has a serious dislike of Nazi's as well.
Yet Nazi and other far-right fascist parties exist all over it as well as America


no it is

Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but you are right that is what I was thinking about.
Social democracy abandoned Marxism. It is a liberal capitalist movement. It retains the capitalist mode of production. It retains alienation and exploitation. It creates its own contradictions by limiting the efficiency of the capitalist system by reducing incentives for capitalists to invest in production.



Never said it was.[/QUOTE]

You said "communism up to this point" did you not? I assumed you were referring to the Soviets
 

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You will need to give the quote. I heard him say something like 'don't come for a black man' if that is what you are meaning, but in the circumstances I do not find that racist. He is talking about Golden Dawn attackers.
Shortened your comment for spacial purposes.

Starting from the fact that he is calling his group the black panthers and ending with the fact that he said he will wipe them off the face of the Earth, that's pretty much racism and genocide right there. Even if he is talking about racist people.

It's not my problem he couldn't get Greek citizenship and it doesn't give him the right to be pissy about it. He is an illegal immigrant and has been for nearly 28 years. He says he considers himself greek yet doesn't care enough about that statement to try and get citizenship. Since he was 18, that's 10 years. You're telling me in 10 years he couldn't get Greek citizenship? Especially during the happy days of yore?

I do not trust poll counting. How do they know it was from the police? And even worse, if they did know it was from the police, that's all manner of wrong. So for me, this seems like a load of non-sense.

Well yeah, I meant the entire stuff that was said starting at 5:40.

Agreed, that could be perceived as a violation of rights and it is. Not a violation towards the illegal immigrants, but the legal immigrants and greek citizens who will be also interogated. Once you go down that road and start thinking of people as guilty before proven innocent, you're in all loads of problems.

I'm not excusing aggressive behavior, I am saying that this aggression was caused because the illegal immigrants came into the country by the numbers they did. Think of it this way. If you leave your window open, it's not an invitation for everybody who wants to come into your house to just jump through the window without your permission, stay wherever they want, eat your food and then leave to your neighbor or somewhere. Let's say 1 person does it, fine... 2 people... ok.. but then if millions start coming in through my window, sitting on my couch, watching my TV, eating my food, staying as long as they want, I might get pissy, take my shotgun and just shoot them all or throw them all out the window. And I would be well in my right to do that because it's my god damn house. And unless I invite you in, you don't get to stay.

And who is responsible for making me lose my mind? The people who come in my house, watch my tv, eat my food, sit on my couch without my permission. This is of course a metaphor. Does that mean I excuse aggressive behavior? No. I just understand why it happened. And it didn't happen because the Greeks gone mad. It's because they were provoked.

Now are the illegal immigrants responsible for the fact that they are there? Yes, they went there. Is anyone else responsible? Yes, the goverment who allowed them to come in at first. If they had enforced their borders and permitted only legal immigration, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I can't comment whether the golden dawn is like the nazi party of old. All I know is that they have a lot of racist rhetoric. The nazi party of old had a great economic plan which made Nazi germany lose all unemployment in under 2 years and become a world power with a strong military and economy. I didn't see the golden dawn's economic reform plan if they have any. That's why the nazi party was a threat. Because it managed to form a powerful nation from the ruins of the old one and also had very ill intentions towards some people. It wasn't a threat just because of the hate rhetoric.

Pro-murder black panther group who threatens to wipe them off the map. Seems a lot like what the golden dawn are planning only viceversa. Racist, genocidal group to defend against a racist genocidal group. Seems fitting. If you had actual good guys in the black panther fighting against the bad golden dawn guys, I'd actually have to feel sorry for them or sympathize. But I don't have to because they're all the same just on opposing forces.

The fact that many of your reporters are black is none of my business. The fact is that these 11min were all one-sided stories. The only time the golden dawn was presented was to emphasize the racist nature of the organization. And while I do not think that ones' skin color should have anything to do with a story, you have to be at least a bit moronic to send a person who is the object of a hate group to interview said hate group. Which is why you presented a biased story. I mean, I don't blame you, it's a lot easier to be a biased paper rather than an objective one.

Now I'm not saying that if you had interviewed the golden dawn, you would uncover the beauty behind the beast. No, give me a break. But maybe you would have presented just some more of what they were about. Maybe discuss their economic plans. Their reform plans, etc. See why they think the way that they do.

Now of course, a black reporter would have a hard time getting that.
 

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Yet Nazi and other far-right fascist parties exist all over it as well as America




Social democracy abandoned Marxism. It is a liberal capitalist movement. It retains the capitalist mode of production. It retains alienation and exploitation. It creates its own contradictions by limiting the efficiency of the capitalist system by reducing incentives for capitalists to invest in production.



Never said it was.
You said "communism up to this point" did you not? I assumed you were referring to the Soviets[/QUOTE]

OK, so you are wanting a thread on communism. This is not it.
 

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You said "communism up to this point" did you not? I assumed you were referring to the Soviets
OK, so you are wanting a thread on communism. This is not it.[/QUOTE]

No, I was responding to your post. And I already know how threads on communism end up on this site.

Usually a lot of this

:elephantf :elephantf :elephantf :elephantf :elephantf
 
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