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Throw the book at 'em!

Just what do you think is the conclusion of the case presented in the OP?
What do you think be the rhetorical purpose of my OP's remarks about Michael Cohen's sentence?

I must ask because, based on the content you've been presenting, I don't think you actually know.

What makes you think the case you are presenting means jack **** to me? It doesn't, because I think you are wrong in your assumptions and what you believe on sentencing.
 
What makes you think the case you are presenting means jack **** to me? It doesn't, because I think you are wrong in your assumptions and what you believe on sentencing.

Well, why don't you simply articulate your own case in direct opposition of the OP's conclusion rather than offering the oblique stuff you have re: Michael Cohen and his sentencing?
 
Well, why don't you simply articulate your own case in direct opposition of the OP's conclusion rather than offering the oblique stuff you have re: Michael Cohen and his sentencing?

You haven't been paying attention. I largely agree with the sentencing offered. I already stated as much. I even gave the three reasons why its appropriate.
 
Red:
Insofar as Mueller's investigation isn't over, the "red" remark is premature.

The Trump investigation is entering its 3rd fruitless year looking for something to accuse Trump of. It took democrats about 3 months to shut down the Clinton email investigation after declaring her innocent without trial.
 
You haven't been paying attention. I largely agree with the sentencing offered. I already stated as much. I even gave the three reasons why its appropriate.
Red:
Yes, you did offer reasons for your conclusion that the three year sentence is appropriate:
  • Argument based on tradition --> "National campaigns frequently settle campaign finance violations with a fine."
    • That point (premise) is non-sequitur to, thus it isn't germane for, supporting your position (conclusion) because the context of most "national campaigns'" underlying actus rei for which they're fined differs from the context of the underlying actus reus for which which Cohen has been sentenced.
  • Two ad hominem objections to my OP --> "Your political bias and venal pettiness is showing."
    • You claimed I'm venally petty.
    • You claimed I'm politically biased.
    • Even if both those assertions be true or not true, they don't show that the sentence is or isn't fitting; thus they too are non-sequitur lines as goes supporting your position.


Blue:
That statement offered on its own is one I'd have read and not responded to with a challenge. For the most part, I don't challenge folks' simple articulations of position. Why? Because such remarks don't offer anything to challenge; people can feel/believe whatever the hell they want. If "regular" folks, on the other hand, offer their belief and a case of some stripe that is intended to support/justify it, well, then there's something for me to evaluate...namely the soundness of the case (premises leading to a conclusion, the conclusion being their position) they present in support of their position.

(It's slightly different as go political figures. Their raison d'etre is to present a position that is presumably based on some sort of case whereby an implicit conclusion is something roughly akin to "therefore 'this' is the best/right/best available/better solution or course of action regarding XYZ.")
 
The Trump investigation is entering its 3rd fruitless year looking for something to accuse Trump of. It took democrats about 3 months to shut down the Clinton email investigation after declaring her innocent without trial.
BTW, there is no "Trump Investigation." There is a Special Counsel's investigation that folks have coined the "Russia Investigation" or "Mueller Investigation." Your calling it a "Trump Investigation" alludes to why you may have difficulty seeing its "fruits": you think the aim of the investigation is to explicitly investigate Trump. It's not; the aim of the investigation was clearly stated in the letter that emplaced the Special Counsel.

You and I clearly have very different notions of what it means for an investigation to be "fruitless." As of last summer the investigation's "fruit" entailed:

  • 187 criminal charges in active indictments or to which individuals have pleaded guilty
  • 23 counts against President Trump’s former deputy campaign manager Rick Gates were vacated when he agreed to cooperate with Mueller
  • 32 people and three businesses have been named in plea agreements or indictments
  • 6 guilty pleas from five defendants, including Gates, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, businessman Richard Pinedo and lawyer Alex van der Zwaan
  • Former campaign chairman Paul Manafort faces 25 criminal counts
  • Van der Zwaan served about four weeks in prison and has been deported to the Netherlands, his home country
  • The indictments include charges of conspiracy against the United States; conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct justice; conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud; bank fraud; obstruction of justice; aggravated identity theft; failure to report foreign bank accounts; and tax fraud
  • 52 counts of conspiracy of some kind
  • 113 criminal counts of aggravated identity theft or identity fraud
  • Four guilty pleas for making false statements
  • 25 Russian nationals have been charged with crimes along with three Russian business entities. Those individuals were charged in two indictments, one focused on Russia’s alleged effort to foster divisiveness on social media (indicted in February) and one focused on alleged hacking (indicted Friday)
  • 13 individuals believed to be linked to Russian intelligence agencies have been charged, including Manafort’s longtime associate Konstantin Kilimnik, a resident of Ukraine
  • 4 individuals working directly for or acting as advisers to Trump’s 2016 campaign have been indicted; three have pleaded guilty

 
Last edited:
BTW, there is no "Trump Investigation." There is a Special Counsel's investigation that folks have coined the "Russia Investigation" or "Mueller Investigation." Your calling it a "Trump Investigation" alludes to why you may have difficulty seeing its "fruits": you think the aim of the investigation is to explicitly investigate Trump. It's not; the aim of the investigation was clearly stated in the letter that emplaced the Special Counsel.

You and I clearly have very different notions of what it means for an investigation to be "fruitless." As of last summer the investigation's "fruit" entailed:

  • 187 criminal charges in active indictments or to which individuals have pleaded guilty
  • 23 counts against President Trump’s former deputy campaign manager Rick Gates were vacated when he agreed to cooperate with Mueller
  • 32 people and three businesses have been named in plea agreements or indictments
  • 6 guilty pleas from five defendants, including Gates, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, businessman Richard Pinedo and lawyer Alex van der Zwaan
  • Former campaign chairman Paul Manafort faces 25 criminal counts
  • Van der Zwaan served about four weeks in prison and has been deported to the Netherlands, his home country
  • The indictments include charges of conspiracy against the United States; conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct justice; conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud; bank fraud; obstruction of justice; aggravated identity theft; failure to report foreign bank accounts; and tax fraud
  • 52 counts of conspiracy of some kind
  • 113 criminal counts of aggravated identity theft or identity fraud
  • Four guilty pleas for making false statements
  • 25 Russian nationals have been charged with crimes along with three Russian business entities. Those individuals were charged in two indictments, one focused on Russia’s alleged effort to foster divisiveness on social media (indicted in February) and one focused on alleged hacking (indicted Friday)
  • 13 individuals believed to be linked to Russian intelligence agencies have been charged, including Manafort’s longtime associate Konstantin Kilimnik, a resident of Ukraine
  • 4 individuals working directly for or acting as advisers to Trump’s 2016 campaign have been indicted; three have pleaded guilty


Mueller was supposed to be investigating Russian collusion with Trump. The fact that they uncovered little sins of Trump associates is not success. It is a mission failure. Which of the rabid dog Democrats finding fault with Trump associates is without his own host of sins? Not one.
 
Red:
Yes, you did offer reasons for your conclusion that the three year sentence is appropriate:
  • Argument based on tradition --> "National campaigns frequently settle campaign finance violations with a fine."
    • That point (premise) is non-sequitur to, thus it isn't germane for, supporting your position (conclusion) because the context of most "national campaigns'" underlying actus rei for which they're fined differs from the context of the underlying actus reus for which which Cohen has been sentenced.
  • Two ad hominem objections to my OP --> "Your political bias and venal pettiness is showing."
    • You claimed I'm venally petty.
    • You claimed I'm politically biased.
    • Even if both those assertions be true or not true, they don't show that the sentence is or isn't fitting; thus they too are non-sequitur lines as goes supporting your position.


Blue:
That statement offered on its own is one I'd have read and not responded to with a challenge. For the most part, I don't challenge folks' simple articulations of position. Why? Because such remarks don't offer anything to challenge; people can feel/believe whatever the hell they want. If "regular" folks, on the other hand, offer their belief and a case of some stripe that is intended to support/justify it, well, then there's something for me to evaluate...namely the soundness of the case (premises leading to a conclusion, the conclusion being their position) they present in support of their position.

(It's slightly different as go political figures. Their raison d'etre is to present a position that is presumably based on some sort of case whereby an implicit conclusion is something roughly akin to "therefore 'this' is the best/right/best available/better solution or course of action regarding XYZ.")

I guess you missed 3 criteria that are actual sentencing guidelines, first time offender, non violent, cooperative.

Now, stepping back and giving an overly harsh sentence when precedent is already set for light sentences for the type of crime Cohen was convicted for would draw appeal fodder. I don't think anyone wants that. Well, apparently, you do.

Your political views color what you think of the sentencing, not the sentencing itself. You are engaging in a faulty conclusion.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
 
BTW, there is no "Trump Investigation." There is a Special Counsel's investigation that folks have coined the "Russia Investigation" or "Mueller Investigation." Your calling it a "Trump Investigation" alludes to why you may have difficulty seeing its "fruits": you think the aim of the investigation is to explicitly investigate Trump. It's not; the aim of the investigation was clearly stated in the letter that emplaced the Special Counsel.

You and I clearly have very different notions of what it means for an investigation to be "fruitless." As of last summer the investigation's "fruit" entailed:

  • 187 criminal charges in active indictments or to which individuals have pleaded guilty
  • 23 counts against President Trump’s former deputy campaign manager Rick Gates were vacated when he agreed to cooperate with Mueller
  • 32 people and three businesses have been named in plea agreements or indictments
  • 6 guilty pleas from five defendants, including Gates, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, businessman Richard Pinedo and lawyer Alex van der Zwaan
  • Former campaign chairman Paul Manafort faces 25 criminal counts
  • Van der Zwaan served about four weeks in prison and has been deported to the Netherlands, his home country
  • The indictments include charges of conspiracy against the United States; conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct justice; conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud; bank fraud; obstruction of justice; aggravated identity theft; failure to report foreign bank accounts; and tax fraud
  • 52 counts of conspiracy of some kind
  • 113 criminal counts of aggravated identity theft or identity fraud
  • Four guilty pleas for making false statements
  • 25 Russian nationals have been charged with crimes along with three Russian business entities. Those individuals were charged in two indictments, one focused on Russia’s alleged effort to foster divisiveness on social media (indicted in February) and one focused on alleged hacking (indicted Friday)
  • 13 individuals believed to be linked to Russian intelligence agencies have been charged, including Manafort’s longtime associate Konstantin Kilimnik, a resident of Ukraine
  • 4 individuals working directly for or acting as advisers to Trump’s 2016 campaign have been indicted; three have pleaded guilty



Mueller was supposed to be investigating Russian collusion with Trump. The fact that they uncovered little sins of Trump associates is not success. It is a mission failure. Which of the rabid dog Democrats finding fault with Trump associates is without his own host of sins? Not one.
Red:
What Mueller was tasked with investigating is plain as the nose on your face. Click the link to the document that emplaced him and you'll see what he was tasked with doing.


Blue:
"Little sins" are yet sins.


Pink:
The investigation Mueller is leading is doing the things it was expressly tasked with doing. I'm not going to copy and paste for you the three things Mueller was tasked with doing. I provided the link to the original document. Click it and read the document.
 
Non violent first time offender?

Got to get that political payback, amirite?

I heard several attorneys-admittedly former W or GHWB- officials claim Cohen didn't really commit any real crimes. Its hard to tell given the weaponization of these political paybacks these days. Non-violent first time offenders where no one was physically hurt and the "loss" is not measurable (vs say a ponzi scheme that bankrupts thousands)-seems a bit excessive. And I was against Democrat Martha Stewart getting jail time too.
 
So today, Michael Cohen was sentenced to three years for his crimes.

Now I don't know if you read the sentencing memorandum the SDNY submitted to the court, but from reading it, three years strikes me as "not that long" a jail sentence. When I think about the fact that his criminal behavior co-opted the US electoral process, three years seems like a very short sentence. Think about what the man did:
  • Cohen’s Willful Tax Evasion
  • False Statements to Financial Institutions
  • Illegal Campaign Contributions
  • False Statements to Congress
Last week, the Feds were described as "throwing the book" at Cohen. Well, three years doesn't to me sound like a penalty concomitant with "throwing the book" at a felon. Does it seem so to you?

Cohen would have got a longer jail sentence if he didn't confess. Same goes for Flynn. Mueller is recommending NO jail time for Flynn because he has co-operated the most of any of the alleged crooks. Cohen initially refused to co-operate and then changed his tune when his wife begged him to squeal like a pig.

The irony of it all is this Cohen tweet a few years ago. cohen_tweet.jpg
 
I guess you missed 3 criteria that are actual sentencing guidelines, first time offender, non violent, cooperative.

Now, stepping back and giving an overly harsh sentence when precedent is already set for light sentences for the type of crime Cohen was convicted for would draw appeal fodder. I don't think anyone wants that. Well, apparently, you do.

Your political views color what you think of the sentencing, not the sentencing itself. You are engaging in a faulty conclusion.

I did not disregard the sentencing guidelines. Cohen didn't at all meet the standard of cooperation set in the district in which he was charged and convicted, the Southern District of New York (SDNY).

Prosecutors cited federal sentencing guidelines of 51 to 63 months. But they also recommended a “modest variance” from the guidelines to reflect his partial cooperation, though they didn’t specify exactly how much time that would be.

Fifty-one to 63 months seems reasonable to me. A "modest variance" from that, about two to six months, also seems fitting.


Red:
You'd do well not to speculate on what I want (or don't) and what does or doesn't color my views.
 
Of course Cohen is the only one convicted in this case. Mueller and his rabid democrat attack dogs went after Trump with everything they had and yet never found anything against Trump or democrats reportedly involved with Russian collusion.

Mueller is a lifelong registered REPUBLICAN. So much for your 'democrat' attack BS.
 
Cohen would have got a longer jail sentence if he didn't confess. Same goes for Flynn. Mueller is recommending NO jail time for Flynn because he has co-operated the most of any of the alleged crooks. Cohen initially refused to co-operate and then changed his tune when his wife begged him to squeal like a pig.

The irony of it all is this Cohen tweet a few years ago. View attachment 67246015

Red and off-topic:
It's highly unlikely that Mueller made the "no-time" recommendation relative to anything other than the standard of cooperation Mueller (or the circuit in which Flynn was charged/convicted) defined.
  • A standard of cooperation exists. Flynn met or exceeded it; therefore he's received a very favorable-to-him sentencing recommendation.
  • How near or far from meeting/exceeding the extant standard others come (or don't) almost certainly had nothing to do with the recommendation.
There's nothing in the sentencing document Mueller filed that broaches a relativist basis for his sentencing stance. Whether relativist considerations played into his arriving at that stance is unknown. Perhaps Mueller's book -- I'm almost certain he, or some other key player on his team, will write one at some point -- will expound on that notion...

Mueller didn't expressly/literally recommended no jail time; however, he indicated he'd be quite okay with a sentence of zero days of incarceration.
Given the defendant’s substantial assistance and other considerations set forth below, a sentence at the low end of the guideline range—including a sentence that does not impose a term of incarceration—is appropriate and warranted.​
That's not quite the same thing as recommending/requesting "zero time," but it's as near to such as one can reasonably expect from a prosecutor. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless:


  • "We recommend no term of incarceration be assigned" is not what Mueller stated.
  • "If, Judge, you're okay with giving Flynn no term of incarceration, we're fine with that too" is what he said.
Flynn's attorneys, however, did, in Flynn's sentencing memo, introduce something of a variation on a tu quoque line, a kind of "reverse" tu quoque, as their justification for their request of no jail time. (I suppose seeing as there's no opposing attorney who can object to one's sentencing request, three's nothing to lose by presenting a logically unsound line, and, to get as short a sentence as possible, it's worth trying whatever one can.) Furthermore, for some reason, Flynn's attorneys submitted a sentencing request that didn't simply say, in effect, "we're good with what the government has indicated" is beyond me. Hopefully, for Flynn's sake, the remarks in his sentencing request, namely those that seem to at this late point in the process, reject/contest Flynn's plea and conviction, don't irk the Court.
 
I did not disregard the sentencing guidelines. Cohen didn't at all meet the standard of cooperation set in the district in which he was charged and convicted, the Southern District of New York (SDNY).

Prosecutors cited federal sentencing guidelines of 51 to 63 months. But they also recommended a “modest variance” from the guidelines to reflect his partial cooperation, though they didn’t specify exactly how much time that would be.

Fifty-one to 63 months seems reasonable to me. A "modest variance" from that, about two to six months, also seems fitting.


Red:
You'd do well not to speculate on what I want (or don't) and what does or doesn't color my views.

Red: I don't give a **** and I don't do warnings if you aren't a mod. I will speculate on your political decisions as much as I please, that is kind of what we are here for.

Secondly, I didn't say you disregarded them, in your overly wordy way, you were intimating that I had.

Last, Mueller is stating that he didn't meet the standards of cooperation, yet the judge sentenced him as if he had cooperated. Which means he did probably cooperate to some extent but not the extent Mueller wanted.
 
I did not disregard the sentencing guidelines. Cohen didn't at all meet the standard of cooperation set in the district in which he was charged and convicted, the Southern District of New York (SDNY).
Prosecutors cited federal sentencing guidelines of 51 to 63 months. But they also recommended a “modest variance” from the guidelines to reflect his partial cooperation, though they didn’t specify exactly how much time that would be.

Fifty-one to 63 months seems reasonable to me. A "modest variance" from that, about two to six months, also seems fitting.

Red:
You'd do well not to speculate on what I want (or don't) and what does or doesn't color my views.



You'd do well not to speculate on what I want (or don't) and what does or doesn't color my views.
Red: I don't give a **** and I don't do warnings if you aren't a mod. I will speculate on your political decisions as much as I please, that is kind of what we are here for.

Red:
Well that's flattering.
  • I didn't come here to have my political decision be the subject of discussion, but I think it nice that you did. I don't imagine others came here to speculate on my political motivations/decisions, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Secondly, I didn't say you disregarded them, in your overly wordy way, you were intimating that I had.

Last, Mueller is stating that he didn't meet the standards of cooperation, yet the judge sentenced him as if he had cooperated. Which means he did probably cooperate to some extent but not the extent Mueller wanted.

Blue:
Really?
  • "I guess you missed 3 criteria that are actual sentencing guidelines, first time offender, non violent, cooperative."
    -- OpportunityCost, Post 33

Pink:
Mueller did not assert or imply that Cohen failed to meet the standards of cooperation he (Mueller) set. The SDNY indicated/impled Cohen didn't meet their standards of cooperation.
The short of what Mueller's sentencing memo says is that the sentence imposed for the Mueller-investigation-related offenses are fittingly served concurrently with the sentence imposed for other crimes Cohen committed. In other words, no "calendar extension" of the sentence need be imposed on account of Cohen's comportment with Mueller's team.
 
Red:
Well that's flattering.
  • I didn't come here to have my political decision be the subject of discussion, but I think it nice that you did. I don't imagine others came here to speculate on my political motivations/decisions, but maybe I'm mistaken.



Blue:
Really?
  • "I guess you missed 3 criteria that are actual sentencing guidelines, first time offender, non violent, cooperative."
    -- OpportunityCost, Post 33

Pink:
Mueller did not assert or imply that Cohen failed to meet the standards of cooperation he (Mueller) set. The SDNY indicated/impled Cohen didn't meet their standards of cooperation.
The short of what Mueller's sentencing memo says is that the sentence imposed for the Mueller-investigation-related offenses are fittingly served concurrently with the sentence imposed for other crimes Cohen committed. In other words, no "calendar extension" of the sentence need be imposed on account of Cohen's comportment with Mueller's team.

Its convenient you aren't quoting posts 2 and 4 though, isn't it?

This is a political debate site, we discuss each others' motivations all the time, quit being so hoity.

SDNY may have said he didn't but apparently, the judge disagreed, if the sentencing is anything to go by.
 
Its convenient you aren't quoting posts 2 and 4 though, isn't it?

This is a political debate site, we discuss each others' motivations all the time, quit being so hoity.

SDNY may have said he didn't but apparently, the judge disagreed, if the sentencing is anything to go by.

Red:
You and other folks may devolve to banter about one another's motivations.

I talk about the nature of folks' (DP members', politicians', commentators', and policy makers') analysis because I know that one's motivations don't make one's analysis higher or lower in rigor, soundness and cogency.


Blue:
It's not a binary matter.
 
Red:
You and other folks may devolve to banter about one another's motivations.

I talk about the nature of folks' (DP members', politicians', commentators', and policy makers') analysis because I know that one's motivations don't make one's analysis higher or lower in rigor, soundness and cogency.


Blue:
It's not a binary matter.

Listen, your holier than thou routine isn't fooling anyone, if I want to discuss your political motivations, I will.

It appears to be a binary matter, the sentencing indicates as much.

It isn't bulverism, its part of your motivations, its obvious to everyone but you, that keeps denying such.
 
Mueller is a lifelong registered REPUBLICAN. So much for your 'democrat' attack BS.

So was McCain and other corrupt narcissistic politicians. It does not matter what party coattails Mueller rode to the top, he is an evil man and has done a great deal of damage to many innocent people in his dirty lifetime.
 
The scope of the illegal campaign contribution and its impact is what strikes me as warranting more than three years. Whom did that particular crime not affect? It affected at least ~325M people.

The NDA's werent illegal and they had no impact on the election. So you can stop making **** up.
 
Red:

[*]"I guess you missed 3 criteria that are actual sentencing guidelines, first time offender, non violent, cooperative."

Crooked cops and prosecutors to person thrown in jail for the purpose of hurting Trump: 'You will either tells us something we want to hear, even if you have to spin the truth slightly out of bounds, or we will make the rest of your life a living hell.'

Mueller did not assert or imply that Cohen failed to meet the standards of cooperation he (Mueller) set. The SDNY indicated/impled Cohen didn't meet their standards of cooperation.

Not only did the jailed victim of Mueller's Trump witch hunt fail to satisfy the tribal savages in Mueller's camp, but he failed to meet the unjust standards set by the tribal savages in the Sovereign District of New York democrat mob office.


[*]Mueller's sentencing memo re: Cohen
[*]SDNY's sentencing memo re: Cohen
[/LIST]
The short of what Mueller's sentencing memo says is that the sentence imposed for the Mueller-investigation-related offenses are fittingly served concurrently with the sentence imposed for other crimes Cohen committed. In other words, no "calendar extension" of the sentence need be imposed on account of Cohen's comportment with Mueller's team.

Jesus said to a bunch of barbarians attempting to kill an innocent woman, "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone." These unjust judges who are out to help tribal savage democrat dogs bring down Trump are full of sins of their own they will soon be answering for before God.
 
So today, Michael Cohen was sentenced to three years for his crimes.

Now I don't know if you read the sentencing memorandum the SDNY submitted to the court, but from reading it, three years strikes me as "not that long" a jail sentence. When I think about the fact that his criminal behavior co-opted the US electoral process, three years seems like a very short sentence. Think about what the man did:
  • Cohen’s Willful Tax Evasion
  • False Statements to Financial Institutions
  • Illegal Campaign Contributions
  • False Statements to Congress
Last week, the Feds were described as "throwing the book" at Cohen. Well, three years doesn't to me sound like a penalty concomitant with "throwing the book" at a felon. Does it seem so to you?

Chill. False statements to Congress and perjury is the modus operandi for many in government. Brennan and Clapper demonstrated it well. Likely they received some sort of commendation.

Cohen is just another New York lawyer.
 
The NDA's werent illegal and they had no impact on the election. So you can stop making **** up.

Who's saying the NDAs were illegal? Nobody but apparently you, AFAIK.
 
Chill. False statements to Congress and perjury is the modus operandi for many in government. Brennan and Clapper demonstrated it well. Likely they received some sort of commendation.

Cohen is just another New York lawyer.

Red:
Tu quoque.
 
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