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Thoughts from a Disillusioned Republican

Wake,
I too am a extremely conservative person when it comes to social values and life style. I am very liberal when it comes to economic values and political values. That works for me. It sounds like you are also making that transition. I wish you the best of luck and hope things turn for the better for you and your mother very soon.

It is interesting to read your account and it seems that ideology has crashed head on into reality. I suspect you are not alone and your numbers are growing.
 
You're welcome to want whatever strikes you're fancy. You are not welcome to demand that the things you want are given to you. I said the majority of poor live better here than anywhere else. That is true. The majority of poor in this country have a roof, food, electronics, luxury items, clothes to wear, shoes to walk in, and many of 'em have cell phones and cars to drive. And yet because they have to buy clothes at Wal-Mart, or because they can't afford a $1000 computer, or because they want to go to a nail salon once a week...what they have isn't enough and somebody else must be made to provide for them.

On top of that, you have a system that's built in such a manner that little to no incentive exists to get out of it. If you get a nice job suddenly your new found income removes your ability to qualify for free child care, or rent assistance, or utility assistance, or food stamps, or any other number of programs people in poverty are currently able to take advantage of. Suddenly, where it was relatively easy to survive, it now isn't. And sure, part of that is wages, but part of it is a program that runs from the mentality you and others are espousing, "These people should have as much as they want, even if they can't provide it for themselves". That mentality will prevent them from being successful. It provides a cushion so large that short of a lottery win or a rich new spouse there are few opportunities for them to do better off of it than they did on it.

who exactly is espousing that mentality? not a person here.....or any person i know. that's why welfare is LIMITED. that's why other programs are LIMITED. i've eaten in a salvation army kitchen, and it was degrading. most people i know would do ANYTHING to keep that from happening.
 
Two things to consider there:

1. Welfare/TANF isn't the only program that provides money/vouchers/discounts/financial support, and
2. That food stamp limit doesn't include minor children. If you have a minor child you aren't limited to 3 months of food stamps.

I'm not saying that the system can't be tweaked or improved. Nor do I think that Democrats would object to taking another look at it, if they didn't think that the Republicans' real motive was to cut the programs as much as they possibly could, or eliminate them altogether. People forget that Bill Clinton ran on a platform of welfare reform.
 
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I'm not saying that the system can't be tweaked or improved. Nor do I think that Democrats would object to taking another look at it, if they didn't think that the Republicans' real motive was to cut the programs as much as they possibly could, or eliminate them altogether. People forget that Bill Clinton ran on a platform of welfare reform.

Some of them SHOULD be eliminated.
 
First, Wake, fervent prayers for your situation to improve. Stories like yours are why I will keep fighting for universal health care and a government option or single-payer system, for the tax cuts enjoyed by the wealthy to end and for corporate welfare to stop.

Your thoughts on the GOP are paralleling what I'm hearing from many of the formerly GOP seniors who are members of my exercise classes. Disillusionment is turning to anger among seniors who have seen Medicare placed on the chopping block rather than raising taxes and Social Security deemed an entitlement program. The thoughts are also paralleling what I hear from formerly-GOP young adults struggling to keep their young families afloat.

I believe the GOP is going to experience some shock and awe during 2012 as many conservatives abandon the party not only at the presidential level but in the Senate and House votes as well.
 
I hope things improve for you Wake.

Beyond titles for different ideologies I think at it's root...taking care of people down and out is just the right thing to do.
 
This particle quote I just found really irks me:

"Don’t blame Wall Street, don’t blame the big banks, if you don’t have a job and you’re not rich, blame yourself! [...] It is not someone’s fault if they succeeded, it is someone’s fault if they failed."

~ Herman Cain

Herman Cain Tells Poor And Jobless "Don't Blame Wall St., Blame Yourself" | News One

This is the kind of attitude from the right that really gets under my skin.

That's sad Wake, it was one of Cain's most bluntly honest moments. He basically told peple "Don't play the victim" and you think that's terrible. I'm sorry to hear life sucks for you now so your principles are all now utterly dog ****... When the going get's tough, the tough blame... others.
 
My worldview is changing. Why is it changing? It's changing because I am realizing certain things that I hadn't given much thought to in the past.

...

Do I blame the right for screwing up our economy and hoarding the wealth? Do I want to learn everything I can about the right's twisting of our economy?

You damn right I do.
First off, I'm sorry about what's happening in your life right now and I hope that goods thing come your way so that you and your mother can get out of it.

As far as your post, I think you're right to think that Democrats are more likely to support the programs that help your family out. It was Democrats who fought to extend unemployment and other programs earlier this year when Republicans tried to cut them.

As AdamT said earlier, I am also unapologetically liberal, so it's obvious that I'm going to support the Democrats, but one of the main reasons I do is because I see exactly what you're claiming to see here. I see a blatant disregard for the poor from many Republican politicians and I see an understanding that in such a crap economy, people need help from the Democrats. That's not to say that the Democrats are angels. They certainly do things that harm the economy as well, but at least they understand some people really do need these social programs and don't just tell people to "pull themselves up off their bootstraps".

I can't say that the right "doesn't care about the poor". That's the kind of claim that requires you to be inside people's minds, but they do seem to be the party that doesn't acknowledge the difficulties of being poor and middle class nowadays. They are certainly a party that would rather cut programs that become necessary with such high unemployment levels than raise taxes on their own multi-million dollar accounts. I think that says a lot.
 
That's sad Wake, it was one of Cain's most bluntly honest moments. He basically told peple "Don't play the victim" and you think that's terrible. I'm sorry to hear life sucks for you now so your principles are all now utterly dog ****... When the going get's tough, the tough blame... others.

This sums up the Republican ideology extremely well. "Everything is fine so long as I'm okay." No sympathy for someone in need, not even one of you own. No disown him because helping him might cost you something. Meanwhile, the left wingers here are even willing to overlook past conflicts and extend a hand to someone in need.

How can you possibly think that your ideology is righteous?
 
That's sad Wake, it was one of Cain's most bluntly honest moments. He basically told peple "Don't play the victim" and you think that's terrible. I'm sorry to hear life sucks for you now so your principles are all now utterly dog ****... When the going get's tough, the tough blame... others.
Didn't you just start a thread asking why people call you heartless? LOL. Hear you go.
 
That's sad Wake, it was one of Cain's most bluntly honest moments. He basically told peple "Don't play the victim" and you think that's terrible. I'm sorry to hear life sucks for you now so your principles are all now utterly dog ****... When the going get's tough, the tough blame... others.

this is a pretty heartless thing to say.
 
I'm sorry, I don't buy that the OP can't find a job. I think he either doesn't want to find a job or he's being picky. I have two college degrees and you know what I did today for income? Scrubbed toilets. Know what I did after that? Mopped floors. After that? Restocked bathrooms with toilet paper, etc. Is it fun? No. Is it income? Yes. I didn't make a poor me thread on debate politics, I busted my ass to find work. Some of the things I do at work are fun, but some suck. I could have easily refused to scrub toilets with two college degrees. But then it would be ME making the poor me threads. Right now, you gotta do what you gotta do. Have you put in an application at every single fast food joint within 10 miles? Have you put in an application at the local Wal Mart? Have you put in an application at every industrial complex within 10 miles? I know you haven't, because you're too good for those jobs. And when I say put in an application, I don't mean fill out a piece of paper and leave. I mean fill it out and ask to meet the manager and hand it to him directly. How do I know this works? Because I was scrubbing toilets today. And for the record, I've been through a lot of **** that should be keeping me from a job but after everything happened, I found myself more blessed than ever before with work.
 
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...And when I say put in an application, I don't mean fill out a piece of paper and leave. I mean fill it out and ask to meet the manager and hand it to him directly. How do I know this works? Because I was scrubbing toilets today.

wow, this is actually a really good post. I'm even a bit moved.

I remember the days, back in 1999, when I was sending out job applications. I did send them out to places that I didn't exactly want to work, but the idea of being unemployed was simply unimaginable to me.

However, I have never been forced to look for work that has NOTHING to do with my skills or education, let alone that pays much less than what I expect for myself. So I find it hard..and kinda unfair..to judge.

Constructive sympathy..and constructive criticism..is the best route in my view.
 
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My worldview is changing. Why is it changing? It's changing because I am realizing certain things that I hadn't given much thought to in the past.

I have been a conservative republican for most of my life. Born in a decent, middle-class home, my life was what the majority calls "normal." I will not go into the details of my life, but presently, I find it difficult to find a job. It's becoming far more difficult with each passing year. The current and past events of my life have left me and my mother living in a modest home in a safe, little town. The most I'm willing to say is that I live in Rochester, Wisconsin. My mother does not work; she has been a good mother and wife most of her life, and is now trying to piece together her life. We have no car, though after a certain event passes I will receive my car I've paid for, and my mother will receive a car as well. In our town, we have very little to no jobs available. With no transportation, we have to wait until we receive the cars. Life is tense and frustrating at this point, because another event left me, a 4.0 RN student, in another state without the means to transfer until I can get my wheels.

What is my point? Well, in this economy, life is really sucking. Were it not for certain programs and benefits to people in our position, or are poor to begin with, we would have starved a while ago. You see, we use the FoodShare program in Wisconsin [also known as SNAP], and it helps people with limited income to buy food. From this bit of info, what comes next? Well, without this program life would be miserable. IF I am correct, this program is possible because of democratic spending, rather than republican cutting.

As I write this, and I assume that bit of info is true, I see many arguments that I could make. I wonder, for one, why many conservatives/republicans which are poor, as in actually knew what it was like to be poor, would vote for the wealthy republicans and businessmen who send jobs overseas. Is this thread merely a driveby against the wealthy republicans and businessmen? Only if you're biased, I suppose. I mean, have any of you every stopped and wondered what it would be like if you were on the other end of that stick? Of course, you hear of those trashy and dirty OWS members who are just complaining against corporations and business because they can, right? Well, have you ever stopped to think what they really feel?

I am frustrated because it feels as though the wealthy republicans, "the wealthy," are feeding upon the poor and lower-middle-class republicans. And I always wonder... if you're poor and republican... why vote for the right when they cut spending to help the poor and have no problem moving jobs overseas to India or Mexico or China? My dad was an ardent republican. A brilliant computer engineer. Delphi corporation, in which he worked, layed him off and sent his job overseas. I suspect the right may have played a role in this. Then again, I am not privy to every, single detail.

Furthermore, I am not blind to the left, either, yet at least they seem to care about the poor. [Then again, my intuition tells me the left needs the left to be poor in order to exist] I disagree with the left for social reasons, yet I disagree with the right for financial/economical reasons, because I feel they don't care much at all for the poor.

We had insurance, a few months ago, and we lost it. Iirc, it was the badgercare plan. It started out at $120 per month, for both of us. Just before we lost it, it was $350, I think, per person [I may be wrong by $50]. Basically, they never sent us the monthly letter which we use to pay for it, and then they blamed it on us and cut our insurance. Later we discovered on our local news that that was a scheme in order for the business to cut off people to save money, I guess. Who knows, right? I see this, insurance companies, as another part of the problem involving the right and its many cuts.

What am I to do? Am I to continue struggling to find a job, and expect for more and more cuts to happen? Why do the wealthy deserve tax cuts, while the poor suffer? Why should we vote for the right when they send jobs overseas, yet the republicans with influence live their lives well-to-do? Why should I continue to think that the poor and the protesters are trashy, stupid, and disgusting... when this economy finds me in a situation similar to them? Why do the poor get poorer and the rich get richer? Since our constituion is a living document why shouldn't we reign in corporations and businesses in order to bring jobs to America, instead of having those assholes go overseas? Corporations aren't people, right, so they shouldn't be given rights as a living, breathing human. Why, as a republican, do I vote for the right and the wealthy when they cut/harm us and they don't give a damn about us? Perhaps the left is onto something, as in how they subtly arc the future into a revolution. Maybe they have something going for them, truly.

The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Our economy sucks. The republicans seem to care not about the poor one bit. People are suffering and dying in the streets. People are getting rightfully pissed. This **** from the right is affecting my life, it's been affecting my life for quite some time, and now I'm starting to react to that. Do I care for communism and socialism? No, not much, because I don't understand them and I remember history. However, I see how hard it is for the poor under capitalism.

Without insurance, if I tear a ligament in my leg and can't walk, my life essentially ends because I have absolutely no means to pay for surgery. Do I wake in cold sweats knowing this possibility present itself every, single day, whether it be water on tile, or something on the ground to trip me? Yes, and that nightmare is terrifying. I also brood over what other cuts will come my way. If this FoodShare program is cut, we will starve. If this event in our life doesn't resolve in time, we will be unable to pay for rent or energy costs.

Do I blame the right for screwing up our economy and hoarding the wealth? Do I want to learn everything I can about the right's twisting of our economy?

You damn right I do.


Welcome home.
 
That's right, welcome to Victimville, where all residents are issued a box of Kleenex upon entering.
Meh, most liberals I know aren't victims. They are well-educated, employed individuals who take responsibility for their own behavior. In fact, many of the most successful people in this country are liberals. The claim that the ideas expressed by Wake and shared by many liberals are those of "victims" is just a myth perpetuated by those who would rather argue by criticizing imaginary characters than address actual arguments.
 
Meh, most liberals I know aren't victims. They are well-educated, employed individuals who take responsibility for their own behavior. In fact, many of the most successful people in this country are liberals. The claim that the ideas expressed by Wake and shared by many liberals are those of "victims" is just a myth perpetuated by those who would rather argue by criticizing imaginary characters than address actual arguments.

Republicans pay the victim card more than anyone! Anything that disagrees with them is liberal!

Science? Liberal
Education? Liberal
Media? Liberal
Court systems? Liberal
Economic Theory? Liberal
Infrastructure Spending? Liberal

The list goes on.
 
Delphi, which you mention, is a good example of what's going on in this country. You say your dad was laid off -- was that during Delphi's bankruptcy?

Here's an article that tells the back story from the local perspective of an Indiana town.

Delphi's downfall is a story involving corporate greed, globalization, unsustainable benefits, union demands, TARP and, ultimately, political maneuvering by the White House -- it's like a microcosm of our political and economic battles.

In short, Delphi, a massive automotive parts supplier, went bankrupt, citing legacy costs (pensions). Our courts allowed Delphi, an international corporation, to end its U.S. liabilities while shielding its international assets. Thus, U.S. creditors and employees took a beating, while Delphi expanded its overseas operations.

Delphi's pensions fell to the PBGC,which meant a cut of 50% or more to most Delphi workers' retirements. However, in the midst of the auto bailout, and with pressure from the UAW, hourly Delphi employees got a bailout of their own thanks to GM ("government motors," remember?). Salaried employees, with no union protections, got the ax. They've been fighting ever since, with little success.

My point: While its tempting to see these issues as "left vs. right," it's much more complex than that. In the story above, there's plenty of "bad guys": Is it right for Delphi to offshore U.S. jobs and leave Americans holding the bag? Is it right for U.S. courts to allow international corporations to shield overseas assets while declaring bankruptcy here? Is it right for the union and Delphi leaders to negotiate unsustainable benefits packages -- basically making big promises today and letting tomorrow take core of itself? Is it right for the government to intervene -- and even influence management decisions -- in a troubled auto market? Is it right for the government to then step into the bankruptcy process and protect some pensions (those of union workers) but not all? Is it even right for salaried workers to continue to demand full pensions after they've been written off by U.S. courts?

People got hurt in this story, no doubt. I'm sorry to hear that you were one of them.

Delphi screwed a town close to me big time.

after bankruptcy, the executives at Delphi tried to give themselves millions in bonuses. the union fought it; not sure how much they got the bonuses reduced by.

ship out jobs, declare bankruptcy, dump salaried pensions on the taxpayers, and split the proceeds. looks like some people slept through the ethics portion of business courses.
 
Republicans pay the victim card more than anyone! Anything that disagrees with them is liberal!

Science? Liberal
Education? Liberal
Media? Liberal
Court systems? Liberal
Economic Theory? Liberal
Infrastructure Spending? Liberal

The list goes on.

How many conservatives on this board, true conservatives, not closet liberals like Wake, have made poor me threads? I already explained why I have no compassion. Because he has time to post thousands of threads on debate politics, but can't find a job?

Hey wake, debate politics isn't hiring, get out and look for a job! I did! :roll:
 
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How many conservatives on this board, true conservatives, not closet liberals like Wake, have made poor me threads? I already explained why I have no compassion. Because he has time to post thousands of threads on debate politics, but can't find a job?

Hey wake, debate politics isn't hiring, get out and look for a job! I did! :roll:

Wake a closet liberal :lamo :lamo :lamo
 
How many conservatives on this board, true conservatives, not closet liberals like Wake, have made poor me threads? I already explained why I have no compassion. Because he has time to post thousands of threads on debate politics, but can't find a job?

Hey wake, debate politics isn't hiring, get out and look for a job! I did! :roll:

Yeah...because there's just jobs sitting out there for everyone, right? Our 8.6 percent unemployment rate is there because lazy people are too lazy to get off their asses. Jesus H Christ.
 
How many conservatives on this board, true conservatives, not closet liberals like Wake, have made poor me threads? I already explained why I have no compassion. Because he has time to post thousands of threads on debate politics, but can't find a job?...

there is some truth to this.
 
I own a small business .. and I've watched some of my clients go belly-up, others contract overseas, and the few remaining to do business here cut development expenses and hunker down.

I'm barely holding on.

We already know all the stats of what is happening here.

We should also know that the liberal Dems and conservative Repubs have long ago grovelingly sold out to the international corporate consortiums (ICCs) of the global economy for their own self-interest.

Thus, no matter the fact that we who oppose such behavior are in the great majority of American citizens, no matter how much we beg and plead, the Dems and Repubs and other extremist factions will never do anything to really help us as long as doing so conflicts with the ICC powers that be in the global economy.

If we of the great majority do not create a new political offering at the healthy center of the political spectrum, to end off-shoring of our jobs and all the wage-slave causes of our citizens' dropping into third-world poverty status here in America itself .. the situation will only deteriorate further as the international coporate consortiums become even better at off-shoring just about every type of job there is.

Tick tock, people.

The only question remaining if we continue to do nothing is: who's next?
 
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