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Thou shall not lie

Canell

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
 

Rainman05

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
I'm guessing is to ask people not to lie... but that's just a guess you know.
 

spud_meister

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Would you want to have to tell a Jewish woman her arse does look big in that garment?

Anyway, the bible has plenty of prohibitions against lying, so you can't say it's encouraged or overlooked.
 

WCH

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
The Jewish versions go into greater detail:

Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"

3. Prohibition of Oaths
This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, "You shall not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain..." This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking G-d's name or swearing unnecessarily.

8. Prohibition of Theft
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not steal." It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping, which is essentially "stealing" a person.

9. Prohibition of Harming a Person through Speech
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." It includes all forms of lashon ha-ra (sins relating to speech).

[]Judaism 101: Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra
 

Rainman05

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Would you want to have to tell a Jewish woman her arse does look big in that garment?

Anyway, the bible has plenty of prohibitions against lying, so you can't say it's encouraged or overlooked.
Not telling a woman she's fat or that her ass looks big is not lying. It's catering to womens' emotions... aaaand making sure you'll have someone to propagate the genetic line with. You know, for the good of the species of course.
 

joG

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
You are right and I had never thought about it that way. :)
 

joG

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Not telling a woman she's fat or that her ass looks big is not lying. It's catering to womens' emotions... aaaand making sure you'll have someone to propagate the genetic line with. You know, for the good of the species of course.
How do you tell her to lose weight? Sure people feel bad, when you admit their follies. Do you say: Hey! Thingummy! Don't eat that Gummibaer!
 

Rainman05

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How do you tell her to lose weight? Sure people feel bad, when you admit their follies. Do you say: Hey! Thingummy! Don't eat that Gummibaer!
Well, not that I ever had that problem, but I'm a really sporty fella. I usually ask her to join me in my workout routines if I start noticing she's getting too round around the edges.

Hey dear, I'm starting a new jogging routine, wanna join me?
Hey dear, wanna pick up tennis? I love tennis, how about it? be my partner?
Hey dear, I'm thinking of getting a monthly subscription to the olympic swimming pool downtown. wanna join me? I think i'd be great. *wink, wink*

In other words, you're dr. smooth combined with dr. love. Well, I'm dr. love, but feel free to ask for advice :)
 

joG

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Well, not that I ever had that problem, but I'm a really sporty fella. I usually ask her to join me in my workout routines if I start noticing she's getting too round around the edges.

Hey dear, I'm starting a new jogging routine, wanna join me?
Hey dear, wanna pick up tennis? I love tennis, how about it? be my partner?
Hey dear, I'm thinking of getting a monthly subscription to the olympic swimming pool downtown. wanna join me? I think i'd be great. *wink, wink*

In other words, you're dr. smooth combined with dr. love. Well, I'm dr. love, but feel free to ask for advice :)
Have fun at the pool. ;) ;)
 

davidtaylorjr

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
Well first, we need to remember that the 10 commandments were not the only commandments, they just happen to be the first that were set in stone. There are plenty of other places in the Bible that speak out against lying.
 

Canell

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Would you want to have to tell a Jewish woman her arse does look big in that garment?

Anyway, the bible has plenty of prohibitions against lying, so you can't say it's encouraged or overlooked.
Care to quote some, spud? :)
Or may be this commandment was written on one of those broken stone records?
 

Rainman05

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Better that than the pool? How does it work for you?
I'm doing it for increased strength and stamina. It's cheaper, I don't have to pay for the monthly pool access. It's ad hoc, I can do it right at home whenever I want (usually in the morning). If you're overweight and want to lose a few kg, you can do it. It works well for that too.

However, nothing compares to swimming in terms of health benefits.
 

spud_meister

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Care to quote some, spud? :)
Or may be this commandment was written on one of those broken stone records?
Proverbs 6:16-17
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
Leviticus 19:11
11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.
I'm sure there's probably more, but searching is tedious.
 

head of joaquin

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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?



:shrug:

Good question. Of course bearing false witness is very different from lying. Lying is often a very kind act, and is the essence of being polite. Also, one should always lie to help others who need it. If a murderer asks you where his intended victim is hiding, you should lie. Period (despite what Kant says).

False witness is a legal matter and involves lying in a proceeding under oath. In most cases, that shouldn't be done. Though I can think of cases where it should. A witness in a Nazi court should lie to protect an innocent person from persecution.

Ultimately I can only say that I'm a Christian and don't follow the 10 Commandments. It's weird that some fundies insist on being bound by legalism when Jesus ended all that nonsense. Instead of posting the 10 Commandments in courts, like some fundies want, how about posting the Beatitudes.
 

specklebang

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Good question. Of course bearing false witness is very different from lying. Lying is often a very kind act, and is the essence of being polite. Also, one should always lie to help others who need it. If a murderer asks you where his intended victim is hiding, you should lie. Period (despite what Kant says).

False witness is a legal matter and involves lying in a proceeding under oath. In most cases, that shouldn't be done. Though I can think of cases where it should. A witness in a Nazi court should lie to protect an innocent person from persecution.

Ultimately I can only say that I'm a Christian and don't follow the 10 Commandments. It's weird that some fundies insist on being bound by legalism when Jesus ended all that nonsense. Instead of posting the 10 Commandments in courts, like some fundies want, how about posting the Beatitudes.
Do you follow any of the commandments? Just curious, not being snarky. Seems like most people just pick and choose when it comes to Biblical stuff.
 

head of joaquin

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Do you follow any of the commandments? Just curious, not being snarky. Seems like most people just pick and choose when it comes to Biblical stuff.
I hear you. I don't follow commandments. I believe the promise that accepting the gospel makes you a new person, capable of loving others. And if you love others, and act on that, not self-interest, you can do no wrong (you can make mistakes, but not wrong). It is, according to Paul, the only thing that counts. If a Christian doesn't believe in that promise and has to follow commandments, what's the point in being a Christian?

According to James (and I believe him) if you follow the law but fail in any part of it, you are condemned. Why would a Christian want that?

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.

You can't pick and choose. If a Christian wants to "keep" the 10 Commandments, he has to keep kosher and not cut his hair and keep the Saturday Sabbath (not Sunday) and stone those to death who don't. No thanks!
 

specklebang

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I hear you. I don't follow commandments. I believe the promise that accepting the gospel makes you a new person, capable of loving others. And if you love others, and act on that, not self-interest, you can do no wrong (you can make mistakes, but not wrong). It is, according to Paul, the only thing that counts. If a Christian doesn't believe in that promise and has to follow commandments, what's the point in being a Christian?

According to James (and I believe him) if you follow the law but fail in any part of it, you are condemned. Why would a Christian want that?

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.

You can't pick and choose. If a Christian wants to "keep" the 10 Commandments, he has to keep kosher and not cut his hair and keep the Saturday Sabbath (not Sunday) and stone those to death who don't. No thanks!
I think you may have upgraded the big 10.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
••OK, sure. Everybody feel that way (in monotheism anyway)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
••Everybody seems to have blown this one off (except Muslims) and we are drowning in graven images.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
••Well I'll be double goddamned if this rule hasn't been negated.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
••Friday, Saturday or Sunday. Doesn't actually say.
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
••Also out of fashion.
Thou shalt not kill.
••But we do - both lawfully and unlawfully.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
••Ha ha. They forgot this one a long time ago.
Thou shalt not steal.
••But can I cheat on my taxes?
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
••This one has held up for the most part.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
••My neighbor has a mighty fine ass and I can't uncovet it. I'd like to uncover it though.

See. No stoning. That's all the extra stuff the owners wrote in.
 

head of joaquin

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I think you may have upgraded the big 10.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
••OK, sure. Everybody feel that way (in monotheism anyway)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
••Everybody seems to have blown this one off (except Muslims) and we are drowning in graven images.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
••Well I'll be double goddamned if this rule hasn't been negated.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
••Friday, Saturday or Sunday. Doesn't actually say.
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
••Also out of fashion.
Thou shalt not kill.
••But we do - both lawfully and unlawfully.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
••Ha ha. They forgot this one a long time ago.
Thou shalt not steal.
••But can I cheat on my taxes?
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
••This one has held up for the most part.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
••My neighbor has a mighty fine ass and I can't uncovet it. I'd like to uncover it though.

See. No stoning. That's all the extra stuff the owners wrote in.

Oh, there's stoning all right.

Numbers 15:32-36 32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in [a]custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him [c]to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses



The Law doesn't just include the 10 Commandment. It's the whole ball of wax -- not eating shrimp and not mxing cotton and linen. There is no reference in fact to the 10 commandments in the Hebrew scriptures or the Christian scriptures (well it's mentioned in the tablet/Sinai story). There is only the reference to the Law, and the Law is supposed to come from God one way or another.
 

specklebang

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Oh, there's stoning all right.

Numbers 15:32-36 32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in [a]custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him [c]to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses



The Law doesn't just include the 10 Commandment. It's the whole ball of wax -- not eating shrimp and not mxing cotton and linen. There is no reference in fact to the 10 commandments in the Hebrew scriptures or the Christian scriptures (well it's mentioned in the tablet/Sinai story). There is only the reference to the Law, and the Law is supposed to come from God one way or another.


Oh darn it. I thought we were just talking about the big TEN. There's no shortage of ridiculous laws in either religion or secular society.
 

head of joaquin

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By the way, the Sabbath is on what we call Saturday in the Hebrew calendar system. It must fall on the seventh day of the week, which is Saturday. Deut. 5:1-21; Ex. 20:1-17

So anybody who doesn't keep the Saturday Sabbath is violating the law and should be stoned. Not a very good position for Christians to be in who insist they are being righteous by keeping the Sabbath on Sunday (and going to church isn't keeping the Sabbath in any case!)
 

head of joaquin

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Oh darn it. I thought we were just talking about the big TEN. There's no shortage of ridiculous laws in either religion or secular society.
Neither the Hebrew scriptures nor the Christian scriptures make a distinction between the so-called 10 commandment and the rest of the law. Indeed, while ten commandments are mentioned with respect to the Exodus story, there is no reference to "THE 10 Commandments" as if they are separate from the rest of the law. Nowhere does anybody in these texts say that those 10 laws are the real laws and the rest aren't. All the laws are supposed to come from God (in the Mosaic system).

It ain't pretty.

In fact, weirdly in the one place where Jesus is discussing what some might claim are the 10 commandments, he only mentions six, and then he adds one NOT in the 10 commandments. Funny that.

Mk 10:17-30; Lk 18:18-30
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20
 
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Hi, people

I was wondering, why isn't there a commandment "Thou shall no lie" in the Decalogue?
The closest to that is "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" but that is different from "don't lie", imho.
Why do you think there is no such commandment? What was the intent of that?

:shrug:
There are already multiple verses on the sin of lying. It's strongly discouraged.
 

Paschendale

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The Jewish versions go into greater detail:

Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"

3. Prohibition of Oaths
This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, "You shall not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain..." This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking G-d's name or swearing unnecessarily.

8. Prohibition of Theft
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not steal." It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping, which is essentially "stealing" a person.

9. Prohibition of Harming a Person through Speech
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." It includes all forms of lashon ha-ra (sins relating to speech).

[]Judaism 101: Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra
Basically none of this is actually in Exodus. There are no categories. Judaism does not go in for wide nets in its rules. Judaism likes its rules extremely literal. It especially does not include the modern spin put on the taking god's name in vain.

Not that these modern readings are bad rules, just that they have absolutely no basis in the original intent of the scripture you're referring to.
 
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