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Thou shall not kill

Can you kill in the name of GOD?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • Under extreme circumstances - Yes; Generally - No.

    Votes: 4 25.0%

  • Total voters
    16

Billo_Really

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I'm starting this thread to argue the points that:
  • Jihad is a myth
  • You cannot kill in the name of GOD
  • You do not have GOD's blessing when you choose to take a life
  • Bullshit Christians are just as evil as Islamic Fascists
  • Many people mis-interpret the Bible for selfish reason's
So my basic premise is...

YOU CANNOT BE FOR WAR AND FOR GOD!

IT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER!

NOT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!
...and if you think God approves of war and he killing of his children, by all means, go for it homie!

State your case...
 
I'm starting this thread to argue the points that:
  • Jihad is a myth
  • You cannot kill in the name of GOD
  • You do not have GOD's blessing when you choose to take a life
  • Bullshit Christians are just as evil as Islamic Fascists
  • Many people mis-interpret the Bible for selfish reason's
So my basic premise is...

...and if you think God approves of war and he killing of his children, by all means, go for it homie!

State your case...

Just one thing to point out;
The actual translation is closer to murder than kill.

However, like English, Hebrew, the language in which most of the Old Testament was written, uses different words for intentional vs. unintentional killing. The verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder" in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause." The Hebrew word used here is ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In fact, specific cities were designated as "cities of refuge," so that an unintentional killer could flee to escape retribution. The Hebrew word for "kill" in this instance is not ratsach, but nakah, which can refer to either premeditated or unintentional killing, depending upon context. Other Hebrew words also can refer to killing. The punishment for murder was the death sentence. However, to be convicted, there needed to be at least two eyewitnesses.
 
Originally posted by AYFR
Just one thing to point out;
The actual translation is closer to murder than kill.

However, like English, Hebrew, the language in which most of the Old Testament was written, uses different words for intentional vs. unintentional killing. The verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder" in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause." The Hebrew word used here is ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In fact, specific cities were designated as "cities of refuge," so that an unintentional killer could flee to escape retribution. The Hebrew word for "kill" in this instance is not ratsach, but nakah, which can refer to either premeditated or unintentional killing, depending upon context. Other Hebrew words also can refer to killing. The punishment for murder was the death sentence. However, to be convicted, there needed to be at least two eyewitnesses.
You stated your case very well. It is also a valid one and I do see your point. Albeit, I do not agree with your conclusion.

How do you then rationalize HIS message:
"vengence is MINE sayeth the Lord".

Which is pretty clear to me, it is only with HIS hand, that a life can be taken.
 
You stated your case very well. It is also a valid one and I do see your point. Albeit, I do not agree with your conclusion.

How do you then rationalize HIS message:
"vengence is MINE sayeth the Lord".

Which is pretty clear to me, it is only with HIS hand, that a life can be taken.

That does not mean that HE Himself ahs to exact the vengence but has to authorize it. There are several places in the Bible where he tell Israel to completely wipe its enemies off the earth.
 
Ecclesiastes
Chapter 3

1 There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
5 A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.



Catechism of the Catholic Church
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.



Christians believe that "Blessed are the peacemakers.." but there may be a "time for war." God doesn't want his followers to be warmongers or doormats. Believers are called to Justice--not only for themselves, but also for their enemies. "Love your enemies, bless them that persecute you." But..."do not be afraid."

Ephesians
Chapter 6

10 Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power.
11 Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.
13 Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground.
14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate,
15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.
16 In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
 
Originally posted by AYFR
That does not mean that HE Himself ahs to exact the vengence but has to authorize it. There are several places in the Bible where he tell Israel to completely wipe its enemies off the earth.
I can't specifically comment on those "places" unless you give me one as an example. But my whole point is that far too many people try to extract out things from the Bible that are nothing more than mis-interpretations of the message HE is trying to deliver.

Vengence is HIS, and only HIS. Not ours.

Come Judgement Day HE is not going to ask for a little help.
 
I'm starting this thread to argue the points that:
  • Jihad is a myth
  • You cannot kill in the name of GOD
  • You do not have GOD's blessing when you choose to take a life
  • Bullshit Christians are just as evil as Islamic Fascists
  • Many people mis-interpret the Bible for selfish reason's

One problem with all of this.

So you can't say Jihad is a myth and it's wrong for Islamic Fascists to kill in the name of god because the Christian or Jewish holy books say you can't kill. Islam doesn't follow Christian or Jewish laws, which the Old and New Testament is.
 
Originally posted by Gibberish:
One problem with all of this.

So you can't say Jihad is a myth and it's wrong for Islamic Fascists to kill in the name of god because the Christian or Jewish holy books say you can't kill. Islam doesn't follow Christian or Jewish laws, which the Old and New Testament is.
I think all religions are talking about the same GUY. And HE will not bless a holy war, regime change war, war of aggression, war on terror, etc.

That's not what HE's about.
 
I think all religions are talking about the same GUY. And HE will not bless a holy war, regime change war, war of aggression, war on terror, etc.

That's not what HE's about.
He doesn't have to bless war itself. But thankfully he blesses those who are fighting and in harms way. He blesses those who are at war for the greater good.
 
Originally posted by CurrentAffairs:
He doesn't have to bless war itself. But thankfully he blesses those who are fighting and in harms way. He blesses those who are at war for the greater good.
I'm sorry, but if you choose war, you do not choose GOD!
 
I'm sorry, but if you choose war, you do not choose GOD!
1 Samuel 15: 1-3
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.


Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"

Answer: Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

War is a terrible thing! War is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). See also Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” So, obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 proclaims, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7
).
What does the Bible say about war?
 
I think all religions are talking about the same GUY. And HE will not bless a holy war, regime change war, war of aggression, war on terror, etc.

That's not what HE's about.

According to the New testament that is not what HE's about. In other religions and more specifically in the Old Testament he is all about war.
 
Originally posted by Gibberish:
According to the New testament that is not what HE's about. In other religions and more specifically in the Old Testament he is all about war.
You are lying to yourself if you think that. GOD is not about war. That entire Bible has one, and only one message, and it is only one word.........LOVE! That's the entire message of the Bible. And that's what he's about.

BTW, do you know what the opposite of love is?

It's not "hate!"
 
Originally posted by AYFR
The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”
According to this definition, HE would not approve of the Iraq war.

You can write the equivelant of War and Peace and it still won't change the fact that he is against war. The one thing GOD cannot do, is contradict himself. If you choose to take a life, you don't have HIS blessing. If he was into war, then why wasn't Jesus more like Walker, Texas Ranger? Why was his last breath that of "forgiveness". Why does HE say love thy enemy? Thou shall not kill. Vengence is mine.

I believe in karma. I know two people in my family that did some very bad things that resulted in someone dying. And their both dead now because of cancer related injuries that came to light after their dispicable acts. I believe that was a message from GOD saying to them, "You ought not have done that. Time to pay your union dues".

Only HE can take a life.
 
Like I said it before it is not Thou Shalt not Kill it is Thou Shalt not Murder.
Also if he is against war then why did he send the Israelites to fight other people?
It says :
Ecclesiastes 3
A Time for Everything
1 For everything there is a season,
a time for every activity under heaven.
2 A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant and a time to harvest.
3 A time to kill and a time to heal.
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4 A time to cry and a time to laugh.
A time to grieve and a time to dance.
5 A time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones.
A time to embrace and a time to turn away.
6 A time to search and a time to quit searching.
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7 A time to tear and a time to mend.
A time to be quiet and a time to speak.
8 A time to love and a time to hate.
A time for war and a time for peace.
 
You do realize that the Bible was written by man? And it is their interpretation of HIS teachings we are reading. With that being said, there is a difference between HIM deciding to war and man deciding to war. I'm talking way back in ancient history. Because HE said after HE brought all the rains and drowned all the bad folk, that HE would never do that again. I'll take HIM at HIS word. And ever since then, he's been against war.

I don't think HE even cared for it before the rains.

Bottom line is HE does not condone the wilful taking of a life.
 
This says it better than I ever could...
Date: Eternity

From: GOD

To: My Children on Earth

re: Idiotic religious rivalries

My Dear Children (and believe me, that's all of you),

I consider myself a pretty patient Guy. I mean, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right. And how about evolution? Boy, nothing is slower than designing that whole Darwinian thing to take place, cell by cell and gene by gene. I've even been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes, and the countless ways you take Me for granted until you get yourselves into big trouble again and again.

But on this occasion of My Son's birthday, I want to let you know about some things that are starting to tick me off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Me up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are your religions, not Mine. I'm the Whole Enchilada; I'm beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there's only one of Me (which, by the way, is absolutely true). But in the very next breath, each religion claims it's My favorite one. And each claims its bible was written personally by me, and that all the other bibles are man-made. Oh, Me. How do I even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?
Okay, listen up now: I'm your Father and Mother, and I don't play favorites among My Children. Also, I hate to break it to you, but I don't write. My longhand is awful, and I've always been more of a "doer" anyway. So all your books, including the bibles, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. I made sure of that, so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living Heart.

You see, one Human Being to me -- even a Bum on the street -- is worth more than all the holy books in the world. That's just the kind of Guy I Am. My Spirit is not an historical thing, It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.

Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of You. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Me.

Which brings Me to My next point about your nonsense: You act like I need you and your religions to stick up for Me or "win souls" for My Sake. Please, don't do Me any favors. I can stand quite well on my own, thank you. I don't need you to defend Me, and I don't need constant credit. I just want you to be good to each other.

And another thing: I don't get all worked up over money or politics, so stop dragging My name into your dramas. For example, I swear to Me that I never threatened Oral Roberts. I never rode in any of Rajneesh's Rolls Royces. I never told Pat Robertson to run for president, and I've never ever had a conversation with Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, or Jimmy Swaggart! Of course, come Judgement Day, I certainly intend to...

The thing is, I want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Me. The true purpose of your religions is so that you can become more aware of Me, not the other way around. Believe Me, I know you already. I know what's in each of your hearts, and I love you with no strings attached. Lighten up and enjoy Me. That's what religion is best for.

What you seem to forget is how mysterious I Am. You look at the petty little differences in your scriptures and say, "Well, if this is the Truth, then that can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out My Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature -- which, by the way, you never will -- why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in every religion?

You know what I'm talking about: Love and respect everyone. Be kind. Even when life is scary or confusing, take courage and be of good cheer, for I Am always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear My Still, Small Voice (I don't like to shout). Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are My Own Child. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die will surely die, and the parts that can't, won't. So don't worry, be happy (I stole that last line from Bobby McFerrin, but he stole it from Meher Baba in the first place.)

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And I'm very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think I care whether you call me Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Wakantonka, Brahma, Father, Mother, or even The Void or Nirvana? Do you think I care which of My Special Children you feel closest to -- Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Me and My Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about My business of loving one another as I love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

I'm not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents. But do you walk around telling everyone that your parents are better than theirs? Your religion, like your parents, may always have the most special place in your heart; I don't mind that at all. And I don't want you to combine all the Great Traditions into One Big Mess. Each religion is unique for a reason. Each has a unique style so that people can find the best path for themselves.

But My Special Children -- the ones your religions revolve around -- all live in the same place (My Heart) and they get along perfectly, I assure you. The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none.
My Blessed Children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotry and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns. Get with the program! If you really want to help Me celebrate the birthday of My Son Jesus, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. I've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving, and laughing together.

Finally, My Children everywhere, remember whose birth is honored on December 25th, and the fearlessness with which He chose to live and die. As I love Him, so do I love each one of you. I'm not really ticked off, I just wanted to grab your attention because I hate to see you suffer. But I gave you Free Will, so what can I do now other than to try to influence you through reason, persuasion, and a little old-fashioned guilt and manipulation? After all, I Am the original Jewish Mother. I just want you to be happy, and I'll sit in The Dark. I really Am, indeed, I swear, with you always. Always.

Trust In Me.

Your One and Only,

GOD


Impatient Letter From God
 
You seem to forget that in Revelation there are two big wars. And one is Armageddon which is required for Christ's Second coming. if he was so against war wouldn't he have let his son come back peacefully?
Also saying that the Bible was written by man is a weak excuse. You use the Bible to prove what you are saying but when I do it it's wrong. That's kind of hypocritical don't ya think.
Either the whole bible was written by man and is all wrong of it is inspired by God and is right. I choose the latter.
 
Originally posted by AYFR
You seem to forget that in Revelation there are two big wars. And one is Armageddon which is required for Christ's Second coming. if he was so against war wouldn't he have let his son come back peacefully?
Also saying that the Bible was written by man is a weak excuse. You use the Bible to prove what you are saying but when I do it it's wrong. That's kind of hypocritical don't ya think.
Either the whole bible was written by man and is all wrong of it is inspired by God and is right. I choose the latter.
I was trying to explain the context of those passages and how they relate to the premise of this thread. But I do understand your point about hypocrisy. And it is a valid point. Albeit, one I don't agree with.
 
You are lying to yourself if you think that. GOD is not about war. That entire Bible has one, and only one message, and it is only one word.........LOVE! That's the entire message of the Bible. And that's what he's about.

BTW, do you know what the opposite of love is?

It's not "hate!"

I'm not saying "he" is. I don't think "he" is about war at all. War is based off of ignorance and arrogance, which is not a godly quality. According to the bible he is about war, and according to Christianity the bible is the word of god. If you don't believe the bible is the word of God then you are more of a spiritual person then a religious one, in which you can freely create your own belief system. By doing this I am unable to debate with you on this topic simply because I do not know what you do and do not believe in.

The only problem I have with your statements is that you are trying to pass your personal opinion of God as blatant fact. Even though I agree about the war thing I will disagree with your statements on it because they are your specific opinions.

Hate is not the opposite of Love as they share many of the same qualities. I would say being completely ignorant would be the opposite of love, showing no sign of interest at all.
 
Originally posted by Gibberish:
I'm not saying "he" is. I don't think "he" is about war at all. War is based off of ignorance and arrogance, which is not a godly quality. According to the bible he is about war, and according to Christianity the bible is the word of god. If you don't believe the bible is the word of God then you are more of a spiritual person then a religious one, in which you can freely create your own belief system. By doing this I am unable to debate with you on this topic simply because I do not know what you do and do not believe in.

The only problem I have with your statements is that you are trying to pass your personal opinion of God as blatant fact. Even though I agree about the war thing I will disagree with your statements on it because they are your specific opinions.
You're absolutely right and that is exactly what I'm doing.

For the record, I was raised a Catholic, did time as an alter boy, was Confirmed, have attended approximately 400-500 masses in my life and have survived Parochial school. I think the Bible is a lesson in logic and morality. The principles makes sense. The Ten Commandments make sense. That is the way one should treat people. I like the analogy of the two rooms Jesus takes this guy too. One full of people sitting around a pot of food and they were in total misery. For they had forks that were long enough to reach the pot, but they were too long to turn around and reach their mouth once they got the food. Then they go into the next room, a pot of food in the center, same forks, a group of people just having the time of their lives. Laughing, joking, stuffed to the gills with food.

What's the difference between the two rooms? Why have the same situation in both rooms and have two completely opposite results?
 
What's the difference between the two rooms? Why have the same situation in both rooms and have two completely opposite results?

Obviously the people in the second room learned to feed each other instead of only trying to feed themselves. The ones in the first were so preoccupied with their own self view that they fail to see if they work with the others around them everyone would get fed.
 
Originally posted by Gibberish:
Obviously the people in the second room learned to feed each other instead of only trying to feed themselves. The ones in the first were so preoccupied with their own self view that they fail to see if they work with the others around them everyone would get fed.
Now if we could just do that in Darfur.
 
Billo, I have a hard time discerning if you are really curious to this answer, or if it is just a subversive way to be critical of the war in Iraq, and the Bush Admin. You raise a good question, but you throw in Darfur, and the War in Iraq as arguing points for your side.......
 
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