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Those stupid parents!

Republic_Of_Public

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12 year-old boy gets sex-swap: Sex-change boy 'faces crucial time' - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK

The poor kid's obviously messed right up to want to be a girl at age 12, yet the only 'answer' seen applicable is to turn him into one. I reckon the parents are derelict in their duty try all they can to straighten (no pun intended) the boy out. It's a bit early in the kid's puberty to hit the 'nuclear button' to solve his perceived problems don't you think?

Adulthood's the time to make such a choice. Who knows whether the boy will want to go back after a while if he thinks his problems aren't solved. A few do.

And I also get the feeling that his school's headmaster, holding an assembly to presumably tell every cheeky git in the ruddy school not to think of him as a weirdo, is also not quite the best thing to do.

You just get the feeling the world's gone mad some days. What say others?
 

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12 year-old boy gets sex-swap: Sex-change boy 'faces crucial time' - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK

The poor kid's obviously messed right up to want to be a girl at age 12, yet the only 'answer' seen applicable is to turn him into one. I reckon the parents are derelict in their duty try all they can to straighten (no pun intended) the boy out. It's a bit early in the kid's puberty to hit the 'nuclear button' to solve his perceived problems don't you think?

Adulthood's the time to make such a choice. Who knows whether the boy will want to go back after a while if he thinks his problems aren't solved. A few do.

And I also get the feeling that his school's headmaster, holding an assembly to presumably tell every cheeky git in the ruddy school not to think of him as a weirdo, is also not quite the best thing to do.

You just get the feeling the world's gone mad some days. What say others?
I agree with you its way too early in his life to be considering something so drastic.

Paul
 

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Can't they just change him back..? :2razz:
 

Arcana XV

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What say others?
Nothing, really. What is there to say? I don't know this child, I don't know his parents. I have no clue what it must be like to parent a child so utterly confused about his/her gender. Anything I may personnally think matters very little in the face of how little I actually know of their situation.

One thing I could venture to say is that the parents most probably have their child's very best interest at heart and that no one is fit to judge them in any way unless they know them personally, and even then I'm not sure anyone could understand what they're going through.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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I know for sure that you don't just give a kid a sex change, regardless of how mixed up he is.

The point I was making was that other full-grown adults, who are supposed to be on the level themselves, managed to persuade each other that such an early, drastic measure was alright for a mixed up pre-teen.

And for a 'transgender' group to openly endorse operating on the sexual organs of a boy, that more than crosses the line between supporting full-grown mature-thinking adults and cheering on the premature wishes of an immature child.
 

Arcana XV

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I know for sure that you don't just give a kid a sex change, regardless of how mixed up he is.

The point I was making was that other full-grown adults, who are supposed to be on the level themselves, managed to persuade each other that such an early, drastic measure was alright for a mixed up pre-teen.

And for a 'transgender' group to openly endorse operating on the sexual organs of a boy, that more than crosses the line between supporting full-grown mature-thinking adults and cheering on the premature wishes of an immature child.
You don't know anything for sure, ROP. Things are never as black and white as we'd like them to be. Unless it's your child, then you don't know anything more than what the media has deemed spicy enough to report.

I refuse to let myself be dragged into the sensationalism that surrounds these sorts of cases. Extreme situations such as this one need indepth knowledge of all parties involved and we simply do not have access to it, nor do I think we should, to be quite honest.

I always feel like a sick voyeur when these cases are reported. I'm not a professional child therapist and it's not my place to judge what these parents have decided is best for their child. I just don't have enough to go on.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Was I even judging the child? As I said before and again, I can't imagine any rational adult thought process which can allow this to happen. If I'm wrong, put me in the picture then and don't just say 'oooh, you don't know anything about it'.

Questioning adult motives on such things should never be taboo.

What would you do with a mixed up 12-year old, who, for the sake of argument, is one of those 'gay children' we now get told about? Encourage any others like him to take him round the back of the bins and chuck one up him to salve his mindbending obsession? Or do you try to give him all the care and help he needs, short of anything physical, 'til he gets older and can decide for sure he is who he is?

Only the likes of Peter Tatchell wouldn't want to persuade such a child to wait until adulthood to make adult decisions.
 
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Tashah

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12 seems a bit young to be changing the plumbing.
 

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I've read nothing in this article that suggests to me that the child has changed his physiological sex via hormone therapy or surgical sex reassignment.
The article, although it claims the child "changed sexes" over the summer and began secondary school as a female, seems to actually imply that the lad merely changed genders; that he started secondary school "as a female", wearing a dress and using a new name.
Admittedly, my reading comprehension skills may not be up to par; I've had an emotionally exhausting week.
But besides the sensationalistic "sex-change" headline, would someone please point me to the place where the article implies that the child has undergone or will imminently undergo physiological sex reassignment surgery.
The article merely states that he's wearing a dress to school, and that a special assembly has been held in which school administrators issued a proclamation to the student body at large that the child will now be "treated as a girl".

I should add that I believe allowing a pubertal child to live as a member of the gender he feels best defines him is entirely healthy and appropriate.
Or perhaps, to state it more accurately, I feel that forcing a pubertal child to live as a member of a gender he doesn't feel he belongs to would be unhealthy and inappropriate.
Because, really, we could take away his dresses and insist on calling him Larry instead of Carrie, but can we really prevent an adolescent boy from "living as a girl" if that is his desire?
Girls wear pants, and some even have non-feminine names. That doesn't stop them from being girls.
If this child is truly a female in a biologically male body, nothing parents or school administrators do will stop him from being female.
Might as well just let him live as he feels comfortable living.
If he were female, it would be easier for him to "live as a male" without causing a fuss; tomboys are fairly socially acceptable.
A physiological male who wishes to live "as a girl"- a traditional, stereotypically feminine girl- will be less naturally accepted by his peers and adult intervention will no doubt be required.
 
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Arcana XV

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Was I even judging the child? As I said before and again, I can't imagine any rational adult thought process which can allow this to happen. If I'm wrong, put me in the picture then and don't just say 'oooh, you don't know anything about it'.

Questioning adult motives on such things should never be taboo.

What would you do with a mixed up 12-year old, who, for the sake of argument, is one of those 'gay children' we now get told about? Encourage any others like him to take him round the back of the bins and chuck one up him to salve his mindbending obsession? Or do you try to give him all the care and help he needs, short of anything physical, 'til he gets older and can decide for sure he is who he is?

Only the likes of Peter Tatchell wouldn't want to persuade such a child to wait until adulthood to make adult decisions.
I never said you were judging the child. You did, however, pass harsh judgment on the parents right from the thread title.

As I said, I have absolutely no clue what I would do in such a situation. My child, thankfully, never had any such issues. I'm simply old enough to know that nothing is ever black and white and that tabloid fodder such as this should not be taken at face value. There is just not enough information. All we have to go on are sensationalized tabloid headlines and I'm not in the habit of taking them seriously, especially on such delicate matters.

Knowing myself as I do, the only thing I can assure you of is that I would do what is best for my child regardless of what people who don't know us may think.

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean about "gay children". :confused: As a 12 year old, it was perfectly clear to me that I was straight. Why wouldn't a 12 year old know that they're gay?
 

Republic_Of_Public

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The article does seem to suggest the physical sex change. But having yet another look I think you're right.

As the other person says, nobody can really judge the child himself if you're no psychologist. Somewhat weird, but that's about as far as any of us can go.

I wonder what any psychologists involved may have said. I certainly don't think letting a boy go to school in dresses would exactly ease any integration.

I suppose if I was the parent, at my wits' end no doubt, I may let him walk round the house as a girl if it made him feel a bit better. But surely all this dresses stuff is just an expression of some deeper disorder.

But tomboys are a bit different to sissies, especially as the tomboy is more prevalent. More men would go for a girl who looks after herself more like a man than a woman would go for a man who could.. well, I wouldn't like to speculate!

But I suppose what set me off properly was that part of the article that stated that it was hoped that nobody would notice the boy's odd behaviour at primary school. Such naivity should perhaps disbar you from any reasoned opinion on this boy's plight at all!
 
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1069

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I must say, if we trust the medical establishment (and the child himself) implicitly, and accept that he is a female in a male body and will eventually need to change his body to a female one in order to live a healthy and fulfilling life... now would be the time for the change. The sooner, the better.
If the gender reassignment surgery could be done before he goes through puberty as a male, it will make it much easier for him to pass as a convincing female.
Boys acquire most identifiably "male" characteristics during or after puberty.
If he could have his testes removed now, for instance, his voice would never change, his skin would not coarsen, he wouldn't develop facial hair, he might not even attain a "masculine" height and stature.
Eunuchs in various cultures throughout history, castrated as children, were said not to have developed secondary male sexual characteristics and to have looked more like females in adulthood.
If the doctors (and the child) are positive he really wants to live life as a female, it would be good to arrest the physical process of his becoming a man before he begins to experience the testosterone storm of adolescence.
Perhaps they could just use female hormones to delay his puberty and give him a little more time to think about it, if they didn't want to go so far as to begin surgical sex reassignment yet.
I'm just saying, he's lucky to have realized what he is so early in life; as the article says, he's well supported by his family and community.
He has a unique opportunity that most in his position don't have: the opportunity to stop this biological process now and never become a man.
Later, he can go about becoming a woman, and it will be easier, because he won't have to eradicate his manhood in order to do it.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Looks like the dividing line falls between 'catch him while he's young' and 'let him grow up first before making his momentous decision'.

I fall on the second as he's still immature at the end of everything.
 

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Looks like the dividing line falls between 'catch him while he's young' and 'let him grow up first before making his momentous decision'.

I fall on the second as he's still immature at the end of everything.
Again, it's very difficult to speculate about how you would raise this child yourself until you are in such a position.
 

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Again, it's very difficult to speculate about how you would raise this child yourself until you are in such a position.
It would be so hard.
I think, at best, one can speculate that you'd be balancing the possibility of irreversible physical alterations (if one allows a sex change) against the possibility of irreversible emotional/ psychological damage (if one refuses to allow a sex change).

Most parents tend to ere on the side of keeping their child physically "safe", whole and undamaged, even at the expense of the child's psychological or emotional well-being.

I'm sure the parents and doctors know best, and will do what's right.
 

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There is no such thing as true "sex change" surgery. He will be a emasculated male posing as a female.
 

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There is no such thing as true "sex change" surgery. He will be a emasculated male posing as a female.
If I inexplicably woke up tomorrow in a male body, I'd settle for that.
It would be better than the alternative.
Anyway, you might as well say that any woman who has a hysterectomy is an "emasculated male".
True, this boy won't have a uterus, ovaries, or any of the internal female parts; but he'll take female hormones, and he'll have breasts, and his external genitalia will be indistinguishable from that of natural born females (I know, because I looked up medical pictures of post-op transsexuals one time; I'm curious that way).
It is entirely possible that his future lovers won't be able to tell that he wasn't born female.

I think the real question is, what makes one female?
What makes one male?
If it's hormones, or external features, then true sex reassignment is definitely possible; simple, really.
If it's, I don't know... internal things, like ovaries, fallopian tubes, etc, then you're basically saying that women who have these items removed (which is about one in five women, in the US) are then no longer female, which is kind of silly. You could be talking about your own mother.
This would also imply that any post-menopausal woman (in whom these organs no longer serve any real purpose, and basically atrophy) has become a sort of pseudo-male.
Which is rather insulting.

Maybe it's psychological. In which case, there has been a terrible mistake in the case of the girl in this article, who was born with male sex organs by accident.
Medical science must step in and restore her body to its rightful female state, or she'll surely have no quality of life at all, any more than you would if you woke up tomorrow with a vagina.
 

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I think the real question is, what makes one female?
What makes one male?
Barring a few fairly rare conditions, an XX or XY chromosome set. Anything else is a mental disorder.

If it's hormones, or external features, then true sex reassignment is definitely possible; simple, really.
If it's, I don't know... internal things, like ovaries, fallopian tubes, etc, then you're basically saying that women who have these items removed (which is about one in five women, in the US) are then no longer female, which is kind of silly. You could be talking about your own mother.
This would also imply that any post-menopausal woman (in whom these organs no longer serve any real purpose, and basically atrophy) has become a sort of pseudo-male.
Which is rather insulting.
No, because the XX chromosome set remains.

Maybe it's psychological. In which case, there has been a terrible mistake in the case of the girl in this article, who was born with male sex organs by accident.
Medical science must step in and restore her body to its rightful female state, or she'll surely have no quality of life at all, any more than you would if you woke up tomorrow with a vagina.
There is no girl in this article, the is a boy being butchered by bizarre adults.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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"I must say, if we trust the medical establishment (and the child himself) implicitly, and accept that he is a female in a male body and will eventually need to change his body to a female one in order to live a healthy and fulfilling life... now would be the time for the change."

Sex change surgery will really close the chapter will it? Scientists even say the brains between men and women differ. A sex change doesn't seem to be a cure-all. Sex-swappers apparently still need years of therapy and, as I say, some opt to revert.

He'll always be an outsider, whatever he is. People would notice 'something strange about that girl' later on, not just for the adam's apple.

And what about the other kids at that school he's at? For the whim of some short-sighted trendies, the girls may have to endure the presence of a boy in their changing rooms. No ordinary boy, yes, but you can't tell me every single girl will be laid back about it. He would still have to undress and shower alone I bet.

There's bound to be bullying, loneliness and mental torture for him anyway, so why allow him to butcher his body only to find he'll be just as forked up (no swearing allowed!) anyway?
 
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Sex change surgery will really close the chapter will it? Scientists even say the brains between men and women differ.
Malarkey; reputable scientists say no such thing. Gender is a social construct.
And if it were true, it would make it all the more crucial that those in need of sex reassignments (ie, those who want them) receive them.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Just a simple Google returns many reports on all kinds of differences in behaviour, perceptions of art, reactions, instinct, etc. Women are even less likely to be weirdos or perverts than men!

And I have to say, it's a pretty big 'social contruct' that marks the difference. Big, hairy and painful to catch in your zipper!
 

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Children have no natural rights except the right to life (from the point of physical autonomy) and the right to emancipation.

That aside, parents can do anything they want, as long as it doesn't kill the child or interfere with his/her ability to sue for emancipation, now or at a later time, or to have someone else sue on the child's behalf.
 
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