This country was built on liberalism.

[Henrin]

I think that is largely a misperception on your part. I mean no disrespect by that. The liberal mind us much as it has always been. More prone to change, more likely to seek revolution, and more likely seeing fairness as making sure needs are met fir the under privileged.

What in the hell are you talking about? You guys want to shut down the possibly of revolution and even want to disarm the people to make it so. They believed in natural rights while you believe in government created rights. They believed in small government, while you believe in social programs, corporate welfare, controlling the behavior of people, regulating everything and a police state to protect us from everything. They wanted the people to consent to taxation, you just don't ****ing care if they consent. They were non-interventionists, you are interventionists. They were also not interested in fairness, but rights. You on the other hand don't care about property rights and will order people around so other people can get access to property and services. You also don't care about liberty and will mandate people buy services you feel they should have. Lastly, you don't care about life and have no problem at all supporting positions that mean death.

 

[Woodman909]

The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.

Perhaps a refresher course in US history is in order for you. Revolutionaries and Torries were not equatable to liberals and conservatives. There were liberal and conservative factions in each of those groups. All Torries were not shipped back to England. They were given a choice to go or to stay.

You make assumptions based on emotions, not facts. Conservatives do not hate change. The Webster definition of conservative is literal and does not reflect the position of what we call conservatives here in the US. Conservatives strive for a citizenry that is responsible for their own actions, respects the rights of others and do not wish their lives to be driven and controlled by government. Conservatives see the best help for those in need should happen at the local level, not the national. Entitlements foster dependencies rather than benefits. I think your OP twists our history into a knot that makes very little sense.

 

[James D Hill]

Honestly, you are not much of an advocate for your side of things you know.

The Founders were, on the whole (though with considerable personal variation) what is known as Classical Liberals.


None of the modern political parties or ideologies is really comparable.

The Founders were "liberal" in the sense of the times. By modern standards, however, they were socially and economically rather conservative. There are certain elements of classical liberalism to be found in the GOP, the Democrat Party, and the Libertarian party... but none of them are really quite the "Classical Liberal" ideology of the Founders.


Liberal, conservative.... labels. Their meaning changes over time, and when the politicians behind the labels are corrupted they mean very little anyway.


Please... read a history book sometime. The ignorance in some of these threads would make my old history Prof's head explode.

This was before the industrial revolution. You did not have the concept of capitalism and socialism like you do now. For them to suggest that all men where created equal and we all had rights was as liberal as it gets. So was freedom of religion. So try to say liberals did not create the good old USA is just plain wrong. Conservatives where still for the staus quo and sticks in the mudd and liberals where for new ideas and trying to change tradition just like now. Yes both sides have differant motivations. One side is driven by capitalism,greed,so called family values and down right warfare against the poor while the other is driven by reeling in capitalism,helping the poor and peotecting the down and out. The issues are not the same but liberas and conservatives are.

 

[James D Hill]

Perhaps a refresher course in US history is in order for you. Revolutionaries and Torries were not equatable to liberals and conservatives. There were liberal and conservative factions in each of those groups. All Torries were not shipped back to England. They were given a choice to go or to stay.

You make assumptions based on emotions, not facts. Conservatives do not hate change. The Webster definition of conservative is literal and does not reflect the position of what we call conservatives here in the US. Conservatives strive for a citizenry that is responsible for their own actions, respects the rights of others and do not wish their lives to be driven and controlled by government. Conservatives see the best help for those in need should happen at the local level, not the national. Entitlements foster dependencies rather than benefits. I think your OP twists our history into a knot that makes very little sense.

Conservatives have always been stick in the mud's. Through the years they have fought change at every turn. They where against a womans right to vote. They where against ending the ban on inter racil marriage. They where against the ERA.They where against the VA.They where against social security.They are against gay marriage.The bottom line is they have been on the wrong side of every social change except slavery.Times may change but sticks in the mudd are still the same my friend.

 

[James D Hill]

What in the hell are you talking about? You guys want to shut down the possibly of revolution and even want to disarm the people to make it so. They believed in natural rights while you believe in government created rights. They believed in small government, while you believe in social programs, corporate welfare, controlling the behavior of people, regulating everything and a police state to protect us from everything. They wanted the people to consent to taxation, you just don't ****ing care if they consent. They were non-interventionists, you are interventionists. They were also not interested in fairness, but rights. You on the other hand don't care about property rights and will order people around so other people can get access to property and services. You also don't care about liberty and will mandate people buy services you feel they should have. Lastly, you don't care about life and have no problem at all supporting positions that mean death.

Sounds like you are talking about the right to me except for the gun freal talk.

 

[James D Hill]

He is a joke. Its not his fault, he doesn't try to make a fool of himself every time he posts a new thread.

Where am I wrong my friend. Are you saying the founding fathers where right wing rednecks? If so then you sir are the fool.

 

[James D Hill]

:rofl:...James is it your idea to insert joke threads into this forum frequently.

How is it a joke to tell the truth. Those who challenge the status quo and tradition are liberals. Those who want to maintian tradition and the staus quo are conservatives. Remember this was before the industrial revolution so all this capitalistic dabate had not came on the scene yet but if we would left it to the conservatives we would be a federation like Canada. Where am I wrong?

 

[James D Hill]

Bolded because wrong. Horribly wrong.

So they where not revolutionaries? Then what in the hell where they?

 

[James D Hill]

You still need to brush up on your history.
The founding fathers could be called "liberals" but the "Torries" weren't conservative but actually "right wing" as used in European politics. They favored the monarchy form of government. The last true right wing political party in America was the Torrie's.
Compared to European politics, Whigs, Democrats, Republicans, etc. have always been considered to be left wing.
In Russia, hard core communist are considered to be conservatives, extreme left wing.

BTW: The Torrie's didn't go back to England, most stayed and assimilated, that's what America has always been about until liberal political correctness and diversity BS. Those who didn't assimilate moved to Canada.

Now in my life time I have never heard of any political party in America advocating a monarchy or aristocratic form of society in America.

American conservatism has never looked backwards, I think you have them mixed up with "reactionaries."
American conservatives believe in change but they are smarter than leftist and advocate change slowly while the left are continuously pushing for change rarely getting it right. Todays liberals rarely gets it right, they make more mistakes one after another. Every once in awhile in a blue moon they might get something right but they are batting below .100

Also most who hide behind the label of liberal or progressive are actually something else and they aren't liberals or progressives.

When you defend tradition and the status quo you are a conservative. Bottom line my friend.

 

[James D Hill]

"Liberal" meant something completely different back in those days. Something akin to a modern day libertarian. It was only recently that progressives started masquerading by calling themselves "liberals."

I love progressive rock. What you really mean is socialist like myself. The 1700's where before the industrial revolution so yes the issues where not the same but conservatives where the same backward thinking,defenders of the staus quo and stick in the mudd's they are now who id we left it to them nothing woud ever get done.

 

[Henrin]

How is it a joke to tell the truth. Those who challenge the status quo and tradition are liberals. Those who want to maintian tradition and the staus quo are conservatives. Remember this was before the industrial revolution so all this capitalistic dabate had not came on the scene yet but if we would left it to the conservatives we would be a federation like Canada. Where am I wrong?

Liberals are not always against the status quo and conservatives are not always for the status quo. For example, liberals support civil right laws, progressive income taxes, social programs, minimum wage, and a long list of other policies that exist this very moment while conservatives are regularly against minimum wage, either against or for reform of social programs and can be against the progressive income tax system and certain civil right laws along with a long list of other laws and even amendments that exist this very moment.

It really depends on the issue if conservatives or liberals will be for the status quo or for change.

 

[James D Hill]

Liberals are not always against the status quo and conservatives are not always for the status quo. For example, liberals support civil right laws, progressive income taxes, social programs, minimum wage, and a long list of other policies that exist this very moment while conservatives are regularly against minimum wage, either against or for reform of social programs and can be against the progressive income tax system and certain civil right laws along with a long list of other laws and even amendments that exist this very moment.

It really depends on the issue if conservatives or liberals will be for the status quo or for change.

Good point. The only time the conservatives are against tradition or the status quo is if the wat thing are is liberal then they become reationaries and want to go back to the so called good old days.

 

[Goshin]

This was before the industrial revolution. You did not have the concept of capitalism and socialism like you do now. For them to suggest that all men where created equal and we all had rights was as liberal as it gets. So was freedom of religion. So try to say liberals did not create the good old USA is just plain wrong. Conservatives where still for the staus quo and sticks in the mudd and liberals where for new ideas and trying to change tradition just like now. Yes both sides have differant motivations. One side is driven by capitalism,greed,so called family values and down right warfare against the poor while the other is driven by reeling in capitalism,helping the poor and peotecting the down and out. The issues are not the same but liberas and conservatives are.

Look... you shouldn't comment on history in the same way virgins shouldn't talk about their preferred sexual positions, mmkay? Liberals and conservatives are not remotely the same when comparing 1776 to 2013. If you knew any history you'd know that.

 

[James D Hill]

Look... you shouldn't comment on history in the same way virgins shouldn't talk about their preferred sexual positions, mmkay? Liberals and conservatives are not remotely the same when comparing 1776 to 2013. If you knew any history you'd know that.

I don't care if they are differant or not. Liberals built this country and conservatives where sticks in the mudd just like they are now. So what if the issues where differant the attitudes where the same.

 

[Goshin]

I don't care if they are differant or not. Liberals built this country and conservatives where sticks in the mudd just like they are now. So what if the issues where differant the attitudes where the same.

And here we have an excellent example of the dangers of an extremely shallow and self-serving view of history, in the absence of any attention to detail.

 

[James D Hill]

And here we have an excellent example of the dangers of an extremely shallow and self-serving view of history, in the absence of any attention to detail.

Where am I wrong? Are you saying revolutionaries where conservatives? Are you saying those stick in the mud Torries where not conservatives? If so then you are just plain wrong. I agree conservatives and liberals have changed over the years and even in this century but the fact remains liberals built this country and that my friend is fact.

 

[Goshin]

Where am I wrong? Are you saying revolutionaries where conservatives? Are you saying those stick in the mud Torries where not conservatives? If so then you are just plain wrong. I agree conservatives and liberals have changed over the years and even in this century but the fact remains liberals built this country and that my friend is fact.

Read a book or two. 'Liberal' in 1776 did not remotely mean what it means in the 21st century. :doh


Done, buh-bye now.

 

[James D Hill]

Read a book or two. 'Liberal' in 1776 did not remotely mean what it means in the 21st century. :doh


Done, buh-bye now.

I am a history major at the UW. Class of 82. I have read a history book or two my friend and this country was founded by liberals. Too bad it is so hard to get a job as a history teacher.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I am a history major at the UW. Class of 82. I have read a history book or two my friend and this country was founded by liberals. Too bad it is so hard to get a job as a history teacher.

Classical Liberalism, I would agree, not what it has morphed into today where everyone expects the government to provide for basic needs...

 

[James D Hill]

Classical Liberalism, I would agree, not what it has morphed into today where everyone expects the government to provide for basic needs...

I agree AP. Ingles and Marx where not even born yet but I am still right. This country was built in liberalism and the conservatives where loyalist stick in the mudd's. I can't believe these people denying that fact.

 

[Thrilla]

I am a history major at the UW. Class of 82. I have read a history book or two my friend and this country was founded by liberals. Too bad it is so hard to get a job as a history teacher.

I call bull****.

 

[German guy]

Honestly, you are not much of an advocate for your side of things you know.

The Founders were, on the whole (though with considerable personal variation) what is known as Classical Liberals.


None of the modern political parties or ideologies is really comparable.

The Founders were "liberal" in the sense of the times. By modern standards, however, they were socially and economically rather conservative. There are certain elements of classical liberalism to be found in the GOP, the Democrat Party, and the Libertarian party... but none of them are really quite the "Classical Liberal" ideology of the Founders.


Liberal, conservative.... labels. Their meaning changes over time, and when the politicians behind the labels are corrupted they mean very little anyway.


Please... read a history book sometime. The ignorance in some of these threads would make my old history Prof's head explode.

Yes, that exactly.

These labels from the late 18th century cannot be compared to today's politics. Much like today's labels can't be compared to 1930s Germany, i.e. (like many seem to do who claim the Nazis were "left wing").

When boiling it down to the lowest common denominator, I guess all you can say is that "conservatism" is that the according people are skeptic of change, while "progressive" or "left" just means they're more open for change. But what exactly the status quo was (absolutist monarchy/tyranny or a republic or a democracy) people wanted to preserve or change, depends very much on the historical context.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I agree AP. Ingles and Marx where not even born yet but I am still right. This country was built in liberalism and the conservatives where loyalist stick in the mudd's. I can't believe these people denying that fact.

No, your premise is false. Liberalism is not the same today as it was in the late 1700's...

 

[German guy]

I am a history major at the UW. Class of 82. I have read a history book or two my friend and this country was founded by liberals. Too bad it is so hard to get a job as a history teacher.

As a European, it often occurs to me that in America today, "liberalism" seems to have become synonymous to "progressive" or "left", while in Europe, "liberalism" is rather on the right side of the spectrum and the "left" or "progressives" are not called "liberal".

 

[Goshin]

I agree AP. Ingles and Marx where not even born yet but I am still right. This country was built in liberalism and the conservatives where loyalist stick in the mudd's. I can't believe these people denying that fact.

If you're a history teacher our educational system is in even bigger trouble than I thought.