• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

This country was built on liberalism.

James D Hill

DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
6,984
Reaction score
1,034
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.
 

James D Hill

DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
6,984
Reaction score
1,034
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
You have your history completely backwards.

Where am I wrong my friend? Where the Torries not conservatives? Where the founding fathers not revolutionaries? Last time I checked revolutionaries where liberals.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Where am I wrong my friend? Where the Torries not conservatives? Where the founding fathers not revolutionaries? Last time I checked revolutionaries where liberals.

You can't compare what people were labeled as 200 years ago to now. The revolutionaries and the founding fathers who put together the constitution that todays libs despise would be called conservatives today, that is where you are wrong.
 

James D Hill

DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
6,984
Reaction score
1,034
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
You can't compare what people were labeled as 200 years ago to now. The revolutionaries and the founding fathers who put together the constitution that todays libs despise would be called conservatives today, that is where you are wrong.

Conservatives have always hated change (unles it is changing liberal ideas). Conservative have alway had to be drug kicking and screaming into every good idea we have ever had like social security,a womans right to vote,ending the ban in iner racial marriage,gay rights,the ERA so why would the revolution be any diferant?
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Please do not equate modern liberalism with classical liberalism. To even suggest the people that call themselves liberal today have anything in common with the founding fathers should be considered an horrendous insult.
 

James D Hill

DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
6,984
Reaction score
1,034
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Please do not equate modern liberalism with classical liberalism. To even suggest the people that call themselves liberal today have anything in common with the founding fathers should be considered an horrendous insult.

Alabama Paul does it all the time. They where liberals my friend. Where they socialist like myself? No but they did have many liberal ideas. Freedom of religion. All men created equal. All having rights. The freedom to protest. freedom of speach. Freedom of press. All very liberal ideas. True slavery existed and only landowners and men could vote but that changed with time.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Conservatives have always hated change (unles it is changing liberal ideas). Conservative have alway had to be drug kicking and screaming into every good idea we have ever had like social security,a womans right to vote,ending the ban in iner racial marriage,gay rights,the ERA so why would the revolution be any diferant?

At the risk of repeating myself, the founding fathers wrote the constitution, how's THAT for change. You know the constitution, that thing that libs want to do away with, that thing Obama calls "negative rights". You are way off base with your hair brain theory.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
46,772
Reaction score
52,029
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.


Honestly, you are not much of an advocate for your side of things you know.

The Founders were, on the whole (though with considerable personal variation) what is known as Classical Liberals.


None of the modern political parties or ideologies is really comparable.

The Founders were "liberal" in the sense of the times. By modern standards, however, they were socially and economically rather conservative. There are certain elements of classical liberalism to be found in the GOP, the Democrat Party, and the Libertarian party... but none of them are really quite the "Classical Liberal" ideology of the Founders.


Liberal, conservative.... labels. Their meaning changes over time, and when the politicians behind the labels are corrupted they mean very little anyway.


Please... read a history book sometime. The ignorance in some of these threads would make my old history Prof's head explode.
 

Paschendale

Uncanny
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
12,510
Reaction score
12,605
Location
New York City
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
You can't compare what people were labeled as 200 years ago to now. The revolutionaries and the founding fathers who put together the constitution that todays libs despise would be called conservatives today, that is where you are wrong.

Do you actually believe this? Do you really think that there is a serious movement in this country that truly despises the constitution? And what do you mean by despise? Total hatred of rule of law, preferring not to have a constitution? General opposition to a republic as a form of government? A problem with a specific provision? Even I, who wants to alter quite a few things, likes at least 90% of the constitution as is, and most of my changes would be additions to strengthen protected liberties like privacy.

Now, one must also remember that this country was also built on slave labor, and that our founders were wealthy business owners who didn't want to pay taxes to their government. It would be incorrect to describe them as analogous to today's liberals. They might really be pretty close to today's conservatives.

Please do not equate modern liberalism with classical liberalism. To even suggest the people that call themselves liberal today have anything in common with the founding fathers should be considered an horrendous insult.

For example.

But this means that today's conservatives are only about two hundred years behind in their mindset. It would be awfully nice if they could join the 21st century with the rest of us. The founders certainly were not behind their times. Their positions may be obsolete now, but they were the cutting edge of their time. To pay them proper respect is to be at the cutting edge of our time. To emulate the specific rules they espoused is to miss the point entirely. They were radical progressive revolutionaries. But they won their revolution. And then new progressive revolutionaries emerged and won theirs, completely following the spirit of the founders. And then more. And then more. And it continues.

Trying to say the same things the founders said without understanding the reasons they said them is to completely miss the point. To emulate their form and ignore their spirit is to completely miss the point.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.

You still need to brush up on your history.
The founding fathers could be called "liberals" but the "Torries" weren't conservative but actually "right wing" as used in European politics. They favored the monarchy form of government. The last true right wing political party in America was the Torrie's.
Compared to European politics, Whigs, Democrats, Republicans, etc. have always been considered to be left wing.
In Russia, hard core communist are considered to be conservatives, extreme left wing.

BTW: The Torrie's didn't go back to England, most stayed and assimilated, that's what America has always been about until liberal political correctness and diversity BS. Those who didn't assimilate moved to Canada.

Now in my life time I have never heard of any political party in America advocating a monarchy or aristocratic form of society in America.

American conservatism has never looked backwards, I think you have them mixed up with "reactionaries."
American conservatives believe in change but they are smarter than leftist and advocate change slowly while the left are continuously pushing for change rarely getting it right. Todays liberals rarely gets it right, they make more mistakes one after another. Every once in awhile in a blue moon they might get something right but they are batting below .100

Also most who hide behind the label of liberal or progressive are actually something else and they aren't liberals or progressives.
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
The people that call themselves conservatives are not classical liberals either.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,697
Reaction score
5,704
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Do you actually believe this? Do you really think that there is a serious movement in this country that truly despises the constitution? And what do you mean by despise? Total hatred of rule of law, preferring not to have a constitution? General opposition to a republic as a form of government? A problem with a specific provision? Even I, who wants to alter quite a few things, likes at least 90% of the constitution as is, and most of my changes would be additions to strengthen protected liberties like privacy.

QUOTE]

"Louis Michael Seidman, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown University, has a simple plan for getting the U.S. back on track: Let’s give up the Constitution."

"No, really. That’s the title of his New York Times op-ed. His basic argument is that America is not in a perilous financial crisis because of simple, vapid, and dishonest little men. The U.S. is in trouble because of our unreasonable adherence to an outdated document."


I'm hearing a lot of libs talk like this lately.

“As the nation teeters at the edge of fiscal chaos, observers are reaching the conclusion that the American system of government is broken. But almost no one blames the culprit: our insistence on obedience to the Constitution, with all its archaic, idiosyncratic and downright evil provisions,” writes Seidman.
Our obsession with the Constitution has saddled us with a dysfunctional political system, kept us from debating the merits of divisive issues and inflamed our public discourse. Instead of arguing about what is to be done, we argue about what James Madison might have wanted done 225 years ago.

"As someone who has taught constitutional law for almost 40 years, I am ashamed it took me so long to see how bizarre all this is. Imagine that after careful study a government official — say, the president or one of the party leaders in Congress — reaches a considered judgment that a particular course of action is best for the country. Suddenly, someone bursts into the room with new information: a group of white propertied men who have been dead for two centuries, knew nothing of our present situation, acted illegally under existing law and thought it was fine to own slaves might have disagreed with this course of action. Is it even remotely rational that the official should change his or her mind because of this divination?"


Here’s Why This Constitutional Law Professor Thinks America Should ‘Give Up the Constitution’ | TheBlaze.com
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Honestly, you are not much of an advocate for your side of things you know.

The Founders were, on the whole (though with considerable personal variation) what is known as Classical Liberals.


None of the modern political parties or ideologies is really comparable.

The Founders were "liberal" in the sense of the times. By modern standards, however, they were socially and economically rather conservative. There are certain elements of classical liberalism to be found in the GOP, the Democrat Party, and the Libertarian party... but none of them are really quite the "Classical Liberal" ideology of the Founders.


Liberal, conservative.... labels. Their meaning changes over time, and when the politicians behind the labels are corrupted they mean very little anyway.


Please... read a history book sometime. The ignorance in some of these threads would make my old history Prof's head explode.

If you believe liberals aren't liberals, you should them something else. Liberal thought, then and now, largely deals with change and revolutionary ideas.
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Yes, in the Classical sense, I would agree...

Distinction without a real difference. What were speaking of here is liberal thought. And that really hasn't changed. Not fundamentally.
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Distinction without a real difference. What were speaking of here is liberal thought. And that really hasn't changed. Not fundamentally.

You aren't a liberal and I'm sorry but you have pretty much nothing in common with them. Modern liberals are NOT liberals, period.
 

Master PO

Mixed Government advocate
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
32,516
Reaction score
5,321
Location
93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.


:rofl:...James is it your idea to insert joke threads into this forum frequently.
 

ReformCollege

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
4,136
Reaction score
915
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
The founding fathers where not only liberals but they where revolutionaries. The conservatives where called Torries and wanted to remain loyal to the British. Just like conservatives are now they where addicted to the staus quo and hated change. After the war the Torries where all shipped back to England. Too bad we could not do that with the current batch of lunkheads that call themselves conservatives now. They are still walking arould looking backwards and against everything.

"Liberal" meant something completely different back in those days. Something akin to a modern day libertarian. It was only recently that progressives started masquerading by calling themselves "liberals."
 

ReformCollege

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
4,136
Reaction score
915
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
:rofl:...James is it your idea to insert joke threads into this forum frequently.

He is a joke. Its not his fault, he doesn't try to make a fool of himself every time he posts a new thread.
 

Boo Radley

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
37,066
Reaction score
7,028
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
You aren't a liberal and I'm sorry but you have pretty much nothing in common with them. Modern liberals are NOT liberals, period.

I think that is largely a misperception on your part. I mean no disrespect by that. The liberal mind us much as it has always been. More prone to change, more likely to seek revolution, and more likely seeing fairness as making sure needs are met fir the under privileged.

While there us a spectrum, and the foundering fathers had some farther left than others, there was much of what I listed in them.
 
Top Bottom