Third world America?

[ecofarm]

The sad and hopeless philosophy is actually believing America becoming poorer will make the world a better place.

That it somehow "promotes Democracy".

You have causation backwards.

 

[Bronson]

You have causation backwards.

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

 

[ecofarm]

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

Let me explain the order of events.

1. Spread democracy.
2. Become less wealthy.

I'm fine with that.

Let's note: 1 causes 2, 2 does not cause 1.

 

[Morrigi]

Right. You are a man of insight.

Oh, I just do my research. Dig deep enough, and you find all sorts of crazy **** and some of it is true.

 

[rocket88]

We should have "shock and awed" those Russian tanks invading Georgia.

Georgia started that war.

 

[iliveonramen]

Never Say Never

You're talking about the collapse of an essential cog in the global economy. The rise of China and other countries depends heavily on capital from the US. The rise of other countries depends heavily on US purchasing power.

 

[ecofarm]

Georgia started that war.

Responding to Kosovo's recent declaration of independence, Russian officials declared Moscow should "reshape its relations with self-proclaimed republics".[3] Russia responded to these calls for increased ties by lifting Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) sanctions, declaring them "outdated, impeding the socio-economic development of the region, and causing unjustified hardship for the people of Abkhazia".[1] Russia also called on other CIS members to undertake similar steps, but met with protests from Tbilisi and lack of support from the other CIS countries.[4] Shalva Natelashvili, leader of the Labour Party of Georgia, warned Abkhazia would be "finally separated from Georgia" and cited the lifting of sanctions as the first sign.[5] Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, raised similar concerns about the dropping of trade restrictions saying, "That could look like a de facto annexation and that would be a matter of great concern if it were the case."[6]

Abkhazia and South Ossetia both submitted formal requests for recognition of their independence to Russia, among other countries, and international organizations as a response to the recognition of Kosovo.[7][8] Russia's Duma called a session for March 13 to discuss the issue of recognition in respect to the unrecognized republics in the Former Soviet Union.[9] Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel said the European Union was concerned by what it considered moves by Russia to recognize Abkhazia. External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said, there was "a growing preoccupation and anxiety that Russia may be paving the way for recognition of Abkhazia," and stated the EU's support for Georgia's territorial integrity.[6]...

On May 26, 2008, the U.N. mission released the conclusion of its independent investigation into the April 20 incident. It confirmed that the Georgian video footage and radar data were authentic and the jet which destroyed the drone was indeed Russian.

2008 Georgia


It started with Russia's illegal annexing of territory and then Russia supporting the soon-to-be annexed territory directly with military aircraft engagements.

During the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, Georgia launched a large-scale military offensive against South Ossetia, in an attempt to reclaim the territory.[54] Georgia claimed that it was responding to attacks on its peacekeepers and villages in South Ossetia, and that Russia was moving non-peacekeeping units into the country. The Georgian attack caused casualties among Russian peacekeepers, who resisted the assault along with Ossetian militia. Georgia successfully captured most of Tskhinvali within hours. Russia reacted by deploying units of the Russian 58th Army and Russian Airborne Troops into South Ossetia one day later, and launching airstrikes against Georgian forces in South Ossetia and military and logistical targets in Georgia proper. Russia claimed these actions were a necessary humanitarian intervention and peace enforcement.[55][56][57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war


Russian land-grabbing, Soviet style.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

I'm fine with a significant drop in the US standard of living in order to promote democracy elsewhere. We are morally obligated.

I'm not so certain that we are obligated to promote democracy elsewhere.....

 

[ecofarm]

I'm not so certain that we are obligated to promote democracy elsewhere.....

I am certain and I've spent my life doing so, first as a paratroop and recently as a development researcher in Africa.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Well, I am certain and I've spent my life doing so first as a paratroop and recently as a development researcher in Africa.

I'm aware, you have made that clear. I'm saying, I'm not sure that we, as a nation, are obligated to promote democracy elsewhere. Not saying we don't do it, saying I'm not sure we are obligated to do so.

 

[DDD]

United States lives in debt. Sooner or later the debt should be returned. Give nothing. Expenditures exceed revenues multiple times. I think the U.S. has two options. Both are terrible. 1) Hyperinflation - devalue its debt and the accumulation of its citizens, pension funds, benefits .... (see Weimar Republic of Germany in the 20s) 2) Untying Third World War in an attempt to hide behind the ocean. In any case, when the debt bubble burst, many will lose everything. The remaining businesses will be closed. Greatly increase crime. Given the large number of weapons from the population - it will be scary in twins. Start racial conflicts. The population itself will require a steady hand. And then will come the new Fuhrer. Declare somebody guilty.... And further you know.

A mighty dark and ill future you profess for USA Tovarish. I guess that would be true when you bombard USA with ill fate while your eliminate its strengths and counter measures to your seemingly "straight" derailment.

But you see USA is not a helpless unreactive piece of land that would see trouble and do nothing about it. There are many loops in this "future" of yours, to the point that I think you are projecting.

But does not USA invents? Does not USA promotes freedom to other countries oppressed by yours? Hence does not USA has allies and good ties? Wont we on this other hand seek opportunities to return the favor and provide some help back should USA be in such trouble?

Compared to Russia the USA is not isolated ad doomed to be lead by a powerful order imposing reinforcer such as your Putin. The way civilized societies that liberate instead of oppress work is really basic actually. That is that "friends help each other." Perhaps you too may benefit from such ties that wont allow such downfalls. It is possible after you leave oppression and start repaying back the damages that you and your allies have caused throughout centuries.

 

[ecofarm]

I'm aware, you have made that clear. I'm saying, I'm not sure that we, as a nation, are obligated to promote democracy elsewhere. Not saying we don't do it, saying I'm not sure we are obligated to do so.

I suppose we'll decide by vote/representatives on the national stuff. In the meantime, I'll be trying to reverse the brain-drain and address poverty.

Of course, we'll need to establish priorities to get the most from our military efforts. I recommend these considerations:

1. The country has natural resources to provide for its own nation building.
2. The country has some infrastructure to support democratic development.
3. Genocide.
4. Other war crimes.
5. Violation of UNSCRs.
6. Support of terrorism.

Next on the list: Iran

 

[Bronson]

Let me explain the order of events.

1. Spread democracy.
2. Become less wealthy.

I'm fine with that.

Let's note: 1 causes 2, 2 does not cause 1.

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

 

[ecofarm]

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

That's a nonsense question. No one is asking NYC to pay for everything.

 

[Bronson]

That's a nonsense question. No one is asking NYC to pay for everything.

Why can't you answer a simple question? I never said anyone was asking NYC to "pay for everything". You're dodging by created false premises and strawmen.

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

 

[ecofarm]

Why can't you answer a simple question? I never said anyone was asking NYC to "pay for everything". You're dodging by created false premises and strawmen.

Do you think NYC going broke would make the United States stronger or weaker economically?

Why don't you just get to your point and stop with the stupid questions?

 

[rocket88]

It started with Russia's illegal annexing of territory and then Russia supporting the soon-to-be annexed territory directly with military aircraft engagements.

.

Russia never has annexed South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Your bolding of "Russian peacekeepers" is interesting since the words immediately preceding that were "The Georgian attack caused casualties among." Then, "Georgia successfully captured most of Tskhinvali within hours," which they certainly would not have been able to do if Russia had, as you claim, annexed the territory.

I think the Ossetians and Abkhaz (which are actual ethnic groups with their own language) should have more say in their future than Georgia does. You're already having to deal with the separation of Ossetia, something Stalin did thinking it didn't matter anyway. South Ossetia and Abkhazia had declared their independence from Georgia almost immediately after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

There was no annexation. There were peacekeepers there under the auspices of a UN resolution, and Georgian troops fired on them.

 

[ecofarm]

There was no annexation. There were peacekeepers there under the auspices of a UN resolution, and Georgian troops fired on them.

False. Russian "peacekeepers" (which fought against Georgia) were there unilaterally.

You need to review the history of the event.

In May 2008, there were about 2,000 Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia, and about 1,000 Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia under the JCC's mandate.[71]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Georgia_war

The Joined Peacekeeping Force (JPKF) created by the agreement consisted of three members with equal representation: Georgian, Russian and South Ossetian contingents. By September, 2008, Georgia left the JKPF.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Control_Commission_for_Georgian-Ossetian_Conflict_Resolution

 

[Bronson]

Why don't you just get to your point and stop with the stupid questions?

Why can't you answer a simple question? I'm asking your opinion.

 

[rocket88]

False. Russian "peacekeepers" (which fought against Georgia) were there unilaterally.

You need to review the history of the event.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Georgia_war




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Control_Commission_for_Georgian-Ossetian_Conflict_Resolution

You're right, they weren't UN, but they weren't there unilaterally. One of the partners in the JCC was Georgia, and Georgian troops originally were part of the peacekeeping force. That's not unilateral.

 

[ecofarm]

You're right, they weren't UN, but they weren't there unilaterally. One of the partners in the JCC was Georgia, and Georgian troops originally were part of the peacekeeping force. That's not unilateral.

Georgia withdrew from the JCC before the war (due to Russian aggression) and Russia did not withdraw troops. Thus, they were there unilaterally.

 

[Fallenangel]

Georgia withdrew from the JCC before the war (due to Russian aggression) and Russia did not withdraw troops. Thus, they were there unilaterally.

Link to source?

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

Link to source?

Cheers,
Fallen.

The JCC is vitiated by its lopsided composition, quadripartite in name only: the Georgian government, South Ossetian secessionist authorities in Tskhinvali, Russia’s North Ossetia, and Russia itself in the driver’s seat politically and deploying “peacekeeping” troops on the ground. The “3+1” membership was designed from the outset to isolate Georgia, leaving it face to face with three incarnations of Russia, in the absence of international involvement. “This is incorrect and we can not continue working in such a format,” Iakobashvili remarked. The JCC “has not brought us any closer to a settlement” and “we will no longer participate in those useless JCC meetings” (24 Saati, March 4; Civil Georgia, March 5)...

Tbilisi proposes changing the JCC’s 3+1 format to a 2+2+2 format that would include: the Georgian government, Russia, the European Union, OSCE, the Tskhinvali authorities, and the Tbilisi-backed South Ossetian alternative authorities (headed since 2006 by Dmitry Sanakoyev). Georgia sees the EU and OSCE as members with full rights, not mere observers, in the new body (Civil Georgia, The Messenger, March 4-6)...

The proposed changes would, first, put an end to Russia’s triple representation, a grotesque feature of the quadripartite JCC all along. Beyond this, the proposed 2+2+2 format would reflect the changes that have occurred on the ground in South Ossetia after 2004 and whose momentum is accelerating. Such changes include: Georgia’s European integration policy; the EU’s development of a neighborhood policy, with a growing role in post-conflict stabilization and reconstruction; and the emergence and successful performance of Tbilisi-backed authorities in South Ossetia, creating a duality of power there. Meanwhile the EU has become an important donor of rehabilitation funds to South Ossetia.

SOUTH OSSETIA JOINT CONTROL COMMISSION INGLORIOUSLY MOTHBALLED | The Jamestown Foundation


Georgia wished to extract itself from Russian actions that were occurring due to the 3+1 format.

 

[Fallenangel]

SOUTH OSSETIA JOINT CONTROL COMMISSION INGLORIOUSLY MOTHBALLED | The Jamestown Foundation


Georgia wished to extract itself from Russian actions that were occurring due to the 3+1 format.

You call that aggression?!? I thought you were talking about actual incidents between the forces.

EDIT: And Jamestown.org?!? - Mate I had a better impression of you and your preference of information sources.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[RDS]

Get the 50 million people out of the food stamps and then I will upgrade you back to a first world developed country. Till then you are a full-fledged third world country.