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Things that don't help reasonable Christians...

CriticalThought

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This is the sister thread to the "Things that don't help reasonable atheists" thread. I thought this was an interesting recent news story.

[QUOTE='Straight Pride' T-Shirts With Bible Quotation Cause Stir At St. Charles North High School ]Students who wore anti-gay T-shirts to their suburban Chicago high school during "Ally Week" won't be punished, but the shirts have caused an outcry among students and activists alike.

St. Charles North High School, about 60 miles northwest of Chicago, had organized the anti-bullying week in response to the many tragic suicides of gay teens around the country in recent months, according to the suburban Daily Herald. Nationally, Ally Week was observed in mid-October, through the efforts of the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.

But as students showed up to school Monday, they saw some peers presenting a different message. Nick Swedberg at the St. Charles Patch reports that three students were wearing shirts with the words "Straight Pride" on the front, and a quotation from Leviticus on the back: "If a man lay with a male as those who lay with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and shall surely be put to DEATH."[/QUOTE]

'Straight Pride' T-Shirts With Bible Quotation Cause Stir At St. Charles North High School

I perceive this as a little tactless. Walking around during a week of remembrance for gay youth who committed suicide with a T-shirt with a Biblical quote saying that gay people should be put to death. Given all those individuals who argue that homosexuality shouldn't be "shoved in their face" what are your thoughts on these kids and their parents pushing this particular Christian message in this manner?

Another interesting case occurred after Exodus International, a big anti gay group, gave up the "Day of Truth" (where kids were encouraged to tell people that homosexuality is a sin) that was meant to counter the "Day of Silence" (a day of protest for bullying and harassment of gay and lesbian youth). Since then, the anti gay group, Focus on the Family has taken it over and called it "Day of Dialogue" and introduced specific talking points for kids to argue that homosexuality is a "broken sexuality" and to be associated with dysfunction.

Focus on the Family to sponsor anti-gay school program - Portland Humanist | Examiner.com

How do Christians feel about this kind of adversarial action? How tactful is it for Christians to create a day of protest against gays on the same day that gays are protesting bullying and harassment of LGBT youth?
 
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Goshin

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You might be surprised to find that I more-or-less agree with you. I don't think this particular incident was a very good idea on the part of whoever thought it up; the presentation was needlessly adversarial, the timing perhaps insensitive.
 

roguenuke

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I see this as wrong and tactless as if some wore Tshirts on a "Day to Remember Important Women in History" or "Day of Respect towards Abused Women" that said something to the effect of women belong in the kitchen and/or should be subservient to men. No matter how someone feels about a group of people, they should still have to be respectful. I could easily see these teens getting into trouble for such behavior in the future at their jobs for discrimination.
 

digsbe

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I don't think it shows God's love or reflects how Christians are supposed to live. It's spiteful and wrong.
 

Glinda

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It's a dick move, as some of our right-leaning friends would insist. (Zyphlin, I'm talking to you.) :roll:
 

Your Star

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As a gay Christian this really upsets me. We as Christians, weather you believe it is a sin or not, need to embrace the LGBT community, and accept them as equals. It is what Christ would want us to do.
 

Djoop

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You would think that someone who finds inspiration in the christian message would know better than to concern themselves with other peoples 'sins', to be judgemental and forget all about the christian concept of forgiveness.
 

Panache

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Oh look. People are dickish on both sides. Big surprise. Wouldn't it be ironic if those tee-shirts were cotton/polyester blend?

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." - Leviticus 19:19
 

Singularity

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This is the sister thread to the "Things that don't help reasonable atheists" thread. I thought this was an interesting recent news story.



'Straight Pride' T-Shirts With Bible Quotation Cause Stir At St. Charles North High School

I perceive this as a little tactless. Walking around during a week of remembrance for gay youth who committed suicide with a T-shirt with a Biblical quote saying that gay people should be put to death. Given all those individuals who argue that homosexuality shouldn't be "shoved in their face" what are your thoughts on these kids and their parents pushing this particular Christian message in this manner?

It's more than just 'a little tactless' - it's straight up radicalism. Whenever you wear a shirt advocating the death of a particular innocent minority, then you are promoting hatred. These children should have been punished, and their parents should seek counseling if they actually believe (or promote) such nonsense.
 

Black Dog

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Oh look. People are dickish on both sides. Big surprise. Wouldn't it be ironic if those tee-shirts were cotton/polyester blend?

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." - Leviticus 19:19

No it would not. That does not apply to Christians at all.

The message overall from those Christians in the article is indeed repugnant to say the least.
 
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Panache

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Why not?......

Because Levitical law was part of the Old Covenant which was supplanted by the New Covenant when Jesus died on the cross.

It would still be ironic though, because the Bible passage they put on their tee-shirts was from the book of Leviticus, which made it part of the Old Covenant, and not at all applicable to the New Covenant.
 

Manc Skipper

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The main thing not helping reasonable Christians is their low profile.
 

stars2heaven

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Im surprised by some of the comments here, honestly. Tactless? Adversarial? Insensitive? How about morally repugnant? Or a disgusting display of prejudice and hate which led to the bullying and many of the suicides in the first place? Those people ought to be punished. Each and every one of them were bullies in their own right.
 
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roguenuke

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It is a Christian conspiracy to hold down the Gay's and keep them in their place.

I'm pretty sure that the original post meant that more Christians should denounce others who would suggest that being gay deserves death just because they can find a passage in the Bible that supports such a measure, despite the fact that many parts of that same book are currently not followed by many Christians.

So I don't see how reasonable Christians denouncing such things, when they occur and directly to those people who do them, would add support to the argument that "Christian's are conspiring to hold down the gays". In fact, such open denouncing of Christians, like these students, who are supporting violence against gays, would actually be more likely to show a more positive message from Christians.

And, I don't think it is just "Christians" who are believed to be trying to hold down gays, but Muslims and some other religions as well. Having said that, it is not every Christian that is trying to hold back/down homosexuals, but it cannot be denied that some of the biggest support for keeping gays from having the same rights as heterosexuals is coming from some Christian organizations. And some of those Christian organizations are also strong supporters of taking even more rights away from homosexuals. There might be some organizations against homosexuals that are not tied to any religion, but they are not nearly as vocal about it as the religious organizations tend to be.

It is up to those reasonable Christians to stand up to those others who are promoting violence in their name alongside those that the violence is being promoted against.
 

Black Dog

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I'm pretty sure that the original post meant that more Christians should denounce others who would suggest that being gay deserves death just because they can find a passage in the Bible that supports such a measure, despite the fact that many parts of that same book are currently not followed by many Christians.

I agree.

So I don't see how reasonable Christians denouncing such things, when they occur and directly to those people who do them, would add support to the argument that "Christian's are conspiring to hold down the gays". In fact, such open denouncing of Christians, like these students, who are supporting violence against gays, would actually be more likely to show a more positive message from Christians.

I was joking about a subject I probably should not have joked about.

I really do get tired of the disingenuous questions, and assumed his was such.

Here is my opriginal reply to this thread...

No it would not. That does not apply to Christians at all.

The message overall from those Christians in the article is indeed repugnant to say the least.
- http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...p-reasonable-christians-2.html#post1059099765

And, I don't think it is just "Christians" who are believed to be trying to hold down gays, but Muslims and some other religions as well. Having said that, it is not every Christian that is trying to hold back/down homosexuals, but it cannot be denied that some of the biggest support for keeping gays from having the same rights as heterosexuals is coming from some Christian organizations. And some of those Christian organizations are also strong supporters of taking even more rights away from homosexuals. There might be some organizations against homosexuals that are not tied to any religion, but they are not nearly as vocal about it as the religious organizations tend to be.

Will not deny that.

It is up to those reasonable Christians to stand up to those others who are promoting violence in their name alongside those that the violence is being promoted against.

We tend to be in the minority and get drowned out as we are not news etc.

I mean they have a museum that says we existed with dinosaurs? :doh Now that's news.

Embarrassing for me to say the least. :3oops:
 
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roguenuke

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I agree.



I was joking about a subject I probably should not have joked about.

I really do get tired of the disingenuous questions, and assumed his was such.

Here is my opriginal reply to this thread...

No it would not. That does not apply to Christians at all.

The message overall from those Christians in the article is indeed repugnant to say the least.
- http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...p-reasonable-christians-2.html#post1059099765



Will not deny that.



We tend to be in the minority and get drowned out as we are not news etc.

I mean they have a museum that says we existed with dinosaurs? :doh Now that's news.

Embarrassing for me to say the least. :3oops:

I know. And I apologize for posting so much. I didn't mean to attack you, and do see you as a more reasonable Christian who would most likely stand up to anyone who would wear this stuff.

Now, that is how I feel about it, it just shouldn't have been directed at you necessarily.
 

scourge99

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No it would not. That does not apply to Christians at all.

The message overall from those Christians in the article is indeed repugnant to say the least.

The people in the article are Christians. It doesn't help or hurt "reasonable christians" in the same way that in the other thread particular atheists do not help or hurt "reasonable atheists". It doesn't matter either way because
1) Atheists have NOTHING in common except a disbelief in god(s).
2) A single group of christians are not representative of ALL christian beliefs. Catholics, mormons, Baptists, Pentecostals, all have differing beliefs, though there are many similarities.

The problem is that atheism isn't a worldview. It is a single position on a SINGLE issue. Atheists are extremely diverse. Atheists can be buddhists, humanists, Raeliens, scientologsts, nihilists, etc, etc. There is NOTHING in common among atheists except a disbelief in god(s). Anyone who agrees with the statement "I do not believe in a god" is an atheist.

Christianity, on the otherhand, can and usually does compromise a complete worldview. From right and wrong actions (homosexuality, pre marital sex) to what to think or not to think (covet thy neighbors wife). Christianity is a specific form of THEISM (as opposed to A-THEISM). BUT, there are many differing beliefs and sects within Christianity.
 

hallam

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The people in the article are Christians. It doesn't help or hurt "reasonable christians" in the same way that in the other thread particular atheists do not help or hurt "reasonable atheists". It doesn't matter either way because
1) Atheists have NOTHING in common except a disbelief in god(s).
2) A single group of christians are not representative of ALL christian beliefs. Catholics, mormons, Baptists, Pentecostals, all have differing beliefs, though there are many similarities.

The problem is that atheism isn't a worldview. It is a single position on a SINGLE issue. Atheists are extremely diverse. Atheists can be buddhists, humanists, Raeliens, scientologsts, nihilists, etc, etc. There is NOTHING in common among atheists except a disbelief in god(s). Anyone who agrees with the statement "I do not believe in a god" is an atheist.

Christianity, on the otherhand, can and usually does compromise a complete worldview. From right and wrong actions (homosexuality, pre marital sex) to what to think or not to think (covet thy neighbors wife). Christianity is a specific form of THEISM (as opposed to A-THEISM). BUT, there are many differing beliefs and sects within Christianity.


This is too simplistic a view on both counts. Athiems can count as a world view within broader materialism and Chrisitian can be a simple as a single issue. People are always more complicated than this.
 

Black Dog

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The people in the article are Christians. It doesn't help or hurt "reasonable christians" in the same way that in the other thread particular atheists do not help or hurt "reasonable atheists". It doesn't matter either way because
1) Atheists have NOTHING in common except a disbelief in god(s).
2) A single group of christians are not representative of ALL christian beliefs. Catholics, mormons, Baptists, Pentecostals, all have differing beliefs, though there are many similarities.

The problem is that atheism isn't a worldview. It is a single position on a SINGLE issue. Atheists are extremely diverse. Atheists can be buddhists, humanists, Raeliens, scientologsts, nihilists, etc, etc. There is NOTHING in common among atheists except a disbelief in god(s). Anyone who agrees with the statement "I do not believe in a god" is an atheist.

Christianity, on the otherhand, can and usually does compromise a complete worldview. From right and wrong actions (homosexuality, pre marital sex) to what to think or not to think (covet thy neighbors wife). Christianity is a specific form of THEISM (as opposed to A-THEISM). BUT, there are many differing beliefs and sects within Christianity.

And what does this have to do with my comment? Or are you just being an asshole singling me out because I am a Christian?
 

CriticalThought

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And what does this have to do with my comment? Or are you just being an asshole singling me out because I am a Christian?

Feel persecuted much?

He was arguing that you can't pretend the people in the article are not Christians. They represent a sect or group of Christianity. He was arguing that since Christianity is a shared belief system, you cannot disown those members who interpret that belief system in a different way than yourself. They are just as Christan as you, but they practice it in a different way. Atheists, by contrast, do not have a belief system. They are just people who don't believe in God.
 
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