• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Thesis: Trump Lost Iran

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The people have long liked things that are American and as well Americans but;

The middle class is in tatters:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

The massive reforms that had been underway before Trump partly as a response to the nuclear deal with the West (Obama had a lot to do with that) are shredded:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/reformist-project-iran-dead-181004192538633.html

Thus Iran is now solidly and irretrievably on China's side along with Russia, who we likewise drove into China's arms through idiocy and lack of caring about the right things.
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
What a spot-on OP.

Who are you and what have you done with Hawkeye?

Some people yak yak yak on and on but I was trying to be both persuasive and succinct.....Did it work?


I am a big believer in quality.
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
7,944
Reaction score
5,297
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The people have long liked things that are American and as well Americans but;

The middle class is in tatters:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

The massive reforms that had been underway before Trump partly as a response to the nuclear deal with the West (Obama had a lot to do with that) are shredded:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/reformist-project-iran-dead-181004192538633.html

Thus Iran is now solidly and irretrievably on China's side along with Russia, who we likewise drove into China's arms through idiocy and lack of caring about the right things.

Hawkeye10:

While recent American policy has driven Iran closer to Russia and China there is plenty of bad blood between Iran and Russia from the 19th and 20th centuries to make Iran only Luke warm to this new alignment; so I am not so sure that this drift to Eurasian power centres is irreversible. Iran is a country of young people and many of those young Iranians are surprisingly pro-American in their general outlook. As the old guard of the Islamic Revolution die out and the young move into positions of greater and greater authority or influence, those pro-American sentiments will carry more weight in Iranian politics and could tip the country to seek better relations with America and the West.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Hawkeye10:

While recent American policy has driven Iran closer to Russia and China there is plenty of bad blood between Iran and Russia from the 19th and 20th centuries to make Iran only Luke warm to this new alignment; so I am not so sure that this drift to Eurasian power centres is irreversible. Iran is a country of young people and many of those young Iranians are surprisingly pro-American in their general outlook. As the old guard of the Islamic Revolution die out and the young move into positions of greater and greater authority or influence, those pro-American sentiments will carry more weight in Iranian politics and could tip the country to seek better relations with America and the West.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I believe that this word is your mistake.

The correct word being "were".
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
7,944
Reaction score
5,297
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I believe that this word is your mistake.

The correct word being "were".

Hawkeye10:

Nope, they still are despite the bellicose talk and deal withdrawals. They are not keen on the US Government but they really like the American people and share in their own Persian version of the American Dream. Despite the very real tension between the governments of both countries there is a real affection for Americans, American culture and a hunger for American style freedom and economic opportunity among the young.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

iguanaman

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
53,358
Reaction score
19,408
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Hawkeye10:

While recent American policy has driven Iran closer to Russia and China there is plenty of bad blood between Iran and Russia from the 19th and 20th centuries to make Iran only Luke warm to this new alignment; so I am not so sure that this drift to Eurasian power centres is irreversible. Iran is a country of young people and many of those young Iranians are surprisingly pro-American in their general outlook. As the old guard of the Islamic Revolution die out and the young move into positions of greater and greater authority or influence, those pro-American sentiments will carry more weight in Iranian politics and could tip the country to seek better relations with America and the West.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

You forget Iran's ever growing "Revolutionary Guard", the radical (and young) enforcement arm of the Mullahs. They are more than able to terrorize the populace and keep them in line. That's what they are trained for. I would not hold you breath about a "people's rebellion" anytime soon. The Iranian people have no stomach for violence or ability to organize an opposing force against the guard.
 
Last edited:

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Hawkeye10:

Nope, they still are despite the bellicose talk and deal withdrawals. They are not keen on the US Government but they really like the American people and share in their own Persian version of the American Dream. Despite the very real tension between the governments of both countries there is a real affection for Americans, American culture and a hunger for American style freedom and economic opportunity among the young.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Do you remember back when young Turks felt like they were Europeans?

Well that is all gone now, and young Iranians thinking highly of America after what we have done that has effected them which was often done in their backyard is BYE BYE too..
 

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
36,061
Reaction score
12,470
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Eisenhower lost Iran when backed the Shah over the democraticaly elected Prime Minister.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
49,408
Reaction score
33,331
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Lost Iran?

He certainly tore up the Iran deal in a pique of base-pleasing idiocy, but the rest of Europe didn't. They might yet be wise enough to continue to comply in the hope that the next President won't be an angry but slightly concussed child willing to reinstate the agreement in light of their compliance.

One hopes....

But then, one cannot really trust a country that turns on you on a dime because they happened to elect a particularly belligerent goldfish.
 
Last edited:

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,744
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Lost Iran?

He certainly tore up the Iran deal in a pique of base-pleasing idiocy, but the rest of Europe didn't. They might yet be wise enough to continue to comply in the hope that the next President won't be an angry but slightly concussed child willing to reinstate the agreement in light of their compliance.

One hopes....

But then, one cannot really trust a country that turns on you on a dime because they happened to elect a particularly belligerent goldfish.

We turned on a dime yes, and also gave the establishment every reason/excuse they needed which they sure used to kill the reforms that a lot of them never wanted to do in the first place, which they never would have gotten away had Trump not made all of this trouble......making the lack of reform Trumps fault......plus there are all of the other people in the region they have watched us **** over over the years as we continue to be incompetent....plus they watch the complete lack of function in Washington like everyone else does as they like most everyone else does wonder what scale of crazy America is on today.....

"These are the people we wanted to be like?"

China and Russia can get things done.

America Cant.
 
Last edited:

Mycroft

Genius is where you find it.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
74,548
Reaction score
29,823
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The people have long liked things that are American and as well Americans but;

The middle class is in tatters:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

The massive reforms that had been underway before Trump partly as a response to the nuclear deal with the West (Obama had a lot to do with that) are shredded:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/reformist-project-iran-dead-181004192538633.html

Thus Iran is now solidly and irretrievably on China's side along with Russia, who we likewise drove into China's arms through idiocy and lack of caring about the right things.

Simple solution (If the Iranian government even cared about a solution): Stop working to get nukes and the missiles to carry them. Stop promoting terrorism across the Middle East, Africa and other places.

On the other hand, when the Iranian government has so much help from Americans...even Americans from Olympia WA...why should they bother with the simple solution?

Anyway, economically those three countries together...Iran, China and Russia...have a very small pot to piss in and that pot is getting smaller and smaller.
 
Last edited:

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
18,648
Reaction score
6,687
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Simple solution (If the Iranian government even cared about a solution): Stop working to get nukes and the missiles to carry them. Stop promoting terrorism across the Middle East, Africa and other places. On the other hand, when the Iranian government has so much help from Americans...even Americans from Olympia WA...why should they bother with the simple solution? Anyway, economically those three countries together...Iran, China and Russia...have a very small pot to piss in and that pot is getting smaller and smaller.

Simple minds often see the world's problems as simple.... :(

This particular 'simple' solution translates to surrender all regional control to a far away foreign power. Don't stand in the way of foreigners exploiting regional resources, propping up petty tyrants and a co-conspirator in the spread of terrorism across the region (9-11 wasn't done with Shia followers, bin Laden wasn't Shia, the Taliban isn't Shia, al-Qaeda in Iraq wasn't Shia)

As far as pissing in pots, Iran doesn't need the USofA, which would have to write IOUs to fund any aid, I don't see how anyone thinks China is shrinking... :shock:

Iran just needs a place to sell their oil and aid to balance the Sunni/Western attempts at dominance... China looks like the best bet, Russia a fickle ally who only wants to counter USofA regional dominance and a pathway to the Gulf to sell their NG/oil wouldn't hurt... :peace
 

Perotista

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
26,352
Reaction score
19,010
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The people have long liked things that are American and as well Americans but;

The middle class is in tatters:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

The massive reforms that had been underway before Trump partly as a response to the nuclear deal with the West (Obama had a lot to do with that) are shredded:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/reformist-project-iran-dead-181004192538633.html

Thus Iran is now solidly and irretrievably on China's side along with Russia, who we likewise drove into China's arms through idiocy and lack of caring about the right things.

Iran was no U.S. president's to lose. Since the Shah was deposed of in 1979, Iran has been no friend of ours. I suppose if you want to put a president's name on who lost Iran it would be Jimmy Carter. The Shah was very pro American, we had bases in Iran while he ruled, the Shah tried to modernize Iran which led to his downfall. Also it was said, Truman lost China. I don't know what Truman or Carter could have done to stop Mao from deposing the nationalist Chinese or deposing the Shah outside of intervention.

I don't know if the Iranian Nuclear Deal was good or bad or indifferent. I do know almost all Democrats said it was a good thing, almost all Republicans said it was bad. It was one huge big partisan deal for sure. Most independents, the non-partisans, the non-affiliated with either party really didn't care one way or the other.
 

jnug

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Messages
20,550
Reaction score
7,649
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Heck we have lost Israel. Beni spends more time checking in with Putin now than he does with Donald. Donald is making it painfully obvious that he can't be trusted. Putin is becoming "more reliable" in the eyes of the world,. Putin is ruthless, conniving, self interested, but reliably so.

Trump for all his pandering to Saudi is losing Saudi for the same reason.

So go ahead Trumpets, yammer about your wall. You are not getting that either while American influence in the world goes down the drain. Make believe Trump is bringing respect for the US back to the world. He is destroying it day by day, minute by minute.
 
Top Bottom