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There is no such thing as a "natural" or "unalienable" right

There is a difference between assessing intent behind an enumerated right and fabricating a new right that is found nowhere in the Constitution.
Actually, there isn't. The process is the same. An "Originalist" would look at the contemporary records and understandings at the time of creation - in this case the 9th Amendment - and determine if the existence of an "unenumerated right" would have been within the understanding and expectation of the framers. You persist in this hangup of reading elements of the Constitution out of existence.
 
It is pretty clear isn't it? At the heart of this thread is the reaction by some to the legalization of new rights which they do not like or want us to enjoy with the protection of the state. They had no problem with Scalia creating the right to bear arms individually out of the 2nd, but they can't stand letting a woman have birth control or abortions using the same logic and reasoning in the law.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to debate how unenumerated rights are to be recognized... provided, as you say, the same standards are applied consistently to all cases. But what I can't understand is the argument that they don't exist at all. Every time I come across one of these self-confessed originalists, the first thing I ask them is how they'd go about recognizing one of these unenumerated rights that the 9th Amendment plainly say exist... but I've never once seen any of them do anything but claim that the 9th Amendment is effectively some kind of "phantom amendment" that doesn't really exist in the form it is written. It's pretty amusing watching the contortions they get themselves into discussing the ramifications of the 9th.
 
I think it's perfectly legitimate to debate how unenumerated rights are to be recognized... provided, as you say, the same standards are applied consistently to all cases. But what I can't understand is the argument that they don't exist at all. Every time I come across one of these self-confessed originalists, the first thing I ask them is how they'd go about recognizing one of these unenumerated rights that the 9th Amendment plainly say exist... but I've never once seen any of them do anything but claim that the 9th Amendment is effectively some kind of "phantom amendment" that doesn't really exist in the form it is written. It's pretty amusing watching the contortions they get themselves into discussing the ramifications of the 9th.

Exactly. I made the point earlier that all of us benefit when unenumerated rights are legalized and recognized by the courts, it insures us more freedom. As for how they come to be protected, there are many ways to do it. They want to limit it solely to an amendment which is of course very rare and difficult to do, that is exactly what they wish happens with these new rights they do not like. They have no problem though accepting new rights they like though.
 
Amendment 9
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

I don't know how the Founders could have been any clearer on the subject of unenumerated rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to [allow the federal government to] deny or disparage others retained by the people.
 
Exactly. I made the point earlier that all of us benefit when unenumerated rights are legalized and recognized by the courts, it insures us more freedom. As for how they come to be protected, there are many ways to do it. They want to limit it solely to an amendment which is of course very rare and difficult to do, that is exactly what they wish happens with these new rights they do not like. They have no problem though accepting new rights they like though.

Even if you enumerate a new right via constitutional amendment, though, that still doesn't negate the existence of the 9th - unenumerated rights will still have legitimacy. That's exactly why Nat's Article V argument is vacuous at best.
 
Even if you enumerate a new right via constitutional amendment, though, that still doesn't negate the existence of the 9th - unenumerated rights will still have legitimacy. That's exactly why Nat's Article V argument is vacuous at best.
They may have legitimacy, but what they lack is any level of oversight from any branch of the federal government. Unenumerated rights are left to the states and the people to arbitrate.
 
They may have legitimacy, but what they lack is any level of oversight from any branch of the federal government. Unenumerated rights are left to the states and the people to arbitrate.

I'd say the 14th Amendment's equal protection and due process clauses throw a wrinkle into that argument.
 
I'd say the 14th Amendment's equal protection and due process clauses throw a wrinkle into that argument.
If you're trying to say that the 14th puts the same Constitutional obligations on the states as the federal government, that would mean (somewhat redundantly) that the states must also leave unenumerated rights to the states and the people.

Sorry, no go.
 
If you're trying to say that the 14th puts the same Constitutional obligations on the states as the federal government, that would mean (somewhat redundantly) that the states must also leave unenumerated rights to the states and the people.

Sorry, no go.

I think you're confusing the 9th and 10th Amendments. The 9th only refers to rights retained by the people.
 
I think you're confusing the 9th and 10th Amendments. The 9th only refers to rights retained by the people.
Fair point, but your interpretation leaves us with a paradox.

The federal government cannot both remain silent on an unenumerated right, as the Bill of Rights demands, and also voice protections on that unenumerated right by imposing a new federal law. QED: your interpretation of the 14th's impact on the 9th is unworkable.

If, on the other hand, it had been the intent of those who ratified the 14th to completely reverse the meaning of the 9th amendment, I think the text of the 14th might have included some mention of that, or at least the on-the-record arguments in support of the then proposed 14th would have said something to that effect.

Nope, this view of the 14th and 9th was an invention of the Court nearly a century after the 14th was ratified.
 
Fair point, but your interpretation leaves us with a paradox.

The federal government cannot both remain silent on an unenumerated right, as the Bill of Rights demands, and also voice protections on that unenumerated right by imposing a new federal law. QED: your interpretation of the 14th's impact on the 9th is unworkable.

If, on the other hand, it had been the intent of those who ratified the 14th to completely reverse the meaning of the 9th amendment, I think the text of the 14th might have included some mention of that, or at least the on-the-record arguments in support of the then proposed 14th would have said something to that effect.

Nope, this view of the 14th and 9th was an invention of the Court nearly a century after the 14th was ratified.

I don't express the Federal Government to voice protections for unenumerated rights. It is up to the individual to assert the right... if the government (be it Federal or State) wishes to deprive the individual of that liberty, then it can only do so according to due process of law.
 
I think it's perfectly legitimate to debate how unenumerated rights are to be recognized... provided, as you say, the same standards are applied consistently to all cases. But what I can't understand is the argument that they don't exist at all. Every time I come across one of these self-confessed originalists, the first thing I ask them is how they'd go about recognizing one of these unenumerated rights that the 9th Amendment plainly say exist... but I've never once seen any of them do anything but claim that the 9th Amendment is effectively some kind of "phantom amendment" that doesn't really exist in the form it is written. It's pretty amusing watching the contortions they get themselves into discussing the ramifications of the 9th.
I fervently wished someone would have asked that of Justice Barrett before her elevation.
 
I fervently wished someone would have asked that of Justice Barrett before her elevation.

I actually thought Senator Sasse (R-NE) was heading there on Day 3:

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/amy-coney-barrett-senate-confirmation-hearing-day-3-transcript

Sen. Sasse: To tackle a few of those constitutional structural questions for a popular audience, can you explain what the Ninth Amendment is about? Why do we have it?

Amy Coney Barrett: Well, it’s often treated as a rule of interpretation. There’s not a lot of substantive doctrine or any substantive doctrine under it. It’s preserving. It says that the individual’s rights are preserved, that those not expressly granted aren’t taken away.

Sen. Sasse: And if we maybe broaden it from just the Ninth amendment to the Bill of Rights in general, why do we have one and what would be different in our constitutional structure if we didn’t have the Bill of Rights?

Amy Coney Barrett: If we didn’t have a Bill of Rights, we wouldn’t have particular rights singled out for special protection. As I’m sure you know, Senator, the Bill of Rights was added in 1791 because during the debate about the ratification of the original Constitution, many states objected to the fact that there was no Bill of Rights. The original idea, when the original Constitution, and by that, I mean beginning with Article One, moving up, was that the very structure of government protected rights. And there wasn’t thought to be a need to have a Bill of Rights because it was thought that the separation of powers and the structure of federalism would be a protection for those rights. But those who really felt like they wanted the additional protection, the Bill of Rights prevailed and James Madison drafted them and they were ratified in 1791.

Sen. Sasse: So I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. I mean to lay out a hypothesis so you can expand upon it or correct me, but is it fair to say that most governments in human history have had a default assumption of prohibition? Governments can do whatever they want and citizens don’t have rights unless governments proactively give them rights. The default assumption is you don’t have freedom of religion in most governments across time and space. You don’t have the freedom to start a business. And the American system starts with the opposite assumption, which is that freedom is the default condition. People are created in the image of God with inalienable rights. These are pre-governmental rights and the government has to have specifically enumerated powers. We, the Congress, have to authorize Article Two branch, the Executive Branch to go ahead and do anything. And if they don’t have those authorities, in the Executive Branch and the Administrative Agencies, they can’t do anything unless Congress gives them the freedom. And the people’s default assumption is freedom.

And so our system is to flip the historic prohibition assumption and we have a freedom assumption on people and a prohibition assumption on government. And so prior to the Bill of Rights, the structure of the Constitution was saying that we don’t need to enumerate rights because the assumption is you have a right, unless a prohibition has been created. Is that a fair way to think about it? And how would you expand upon it more eloquently since you teach this stuff?

Amy Coney Barrett: You are far more eloquent than I, Senator Sasse. I think that is an accurate description of how the assumptions underlying our Constitution. That the assumption was that if Congress had limited power, it wouldn’t have the ability to infringe rights in the first place. And of course at the time the Constitution was ratified, the states were thought to have… Because the people are closer to their state governments… Well, that’s the point of federalism, right? That citizens can have different policies in states and more influence over their state governments and their state legislatures than the federal government.
 
Where on earth did you get the idea what I posted is the True Scotsman fallacy? No real American would ever think that. ;)

Seriously, my post did not contain anything like that fallacy. I simply asked you who has the authority to decide which claims to being a natural right are valid and which are not. You said "the national community." It's not a wrong answer, but it so general as to be a useless answer. It would be more correct to say that the national community decides through the actions and votes of the people whom they elect to represent them. i.e. our government decides which "natural rights" will be enforced with the power of law. That is the entire point of this OP: a natural right means very little to us until that right is codified into law. Prior to be it being enumerated, a natural right is a lovely sentiment and not much more.

That leads back to the issue in our other thread that began this one. What legal entity has the authority to take a natural law and make it a nationally binding law in a court room? I believe that authority rests solely with two-thirds of Congress and three-fourths of the states. You and others here believe that authority also rests with five appointed judges with life-time tenure. Ultimately, that is where we differ.

You misunderstand, the national community that made the decision the 9th Amendment protects unenumerated rights, with a basis being natural rights, like liberty, was the national community in 1791. Today we as a nation we have laws that the national community of the past gave us. That is how a nation of laws operates. The people of yesterday make laws that are applicable to and bind us today.

The national community of 1791 determined the 9th Amendment protects unenumerated rights of the people. Just as they decided all the rights in the first 8 amendments. The judiciary is now bound to honor and respect that decision.

That’s the difference between you and I. The judiciary of today is bound to the law making by the national community in 1791by their act of drafting and ratifying the BOR.
 
Okay, that subject line is a bit extreme, but hey, it was a hook and it got you here.

What I mean is this. Often unalienable or natural rights are cited as a concept to justify all kinds of judicial hijinks. "This is clearly a natural right, so even though it's mentioned no where in the Constitution it must be a Constitutionally protected right, right?" Such laws certainly have meaning and they were a source of inspiration for the freedoms we enjoy today. But in a legal sense, ultimately unalienable and natural rights amount to little more than political poetry. They sound nice but don't mean much.

I say this because at the end of the day the only rights you really enjoy are those your government chooses to protect. Doubt this? Let's pick one, liberty. Fairly uncontroversial as far as unalienable rights go, but do the people of North Korea have it today? Did those in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany? Did African Americans enjoy it in the United States prior to 1865 (or at times after)? An unalienable right means absolutely nothing when you're sitting in a concentration camp having been found guilty of a thought crime.

So are natural rights in anyway meaningful in a legal context?

What say you?
Just one correction, a right doesnt have to be specifically listed.
 
Correct. It only has to be imagined by five Supreme Court Justices with creative writing skills.

That's disingenuous, Nat... no lower court Judge or Supreme Court Justice has ever defined an unenumerated right out of thin air... rather, they are inferred by penumbras formed by combining facets of the enumerated rights. For example, there is a 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms and a 4th Amendment right for people to be secure in their persons and homes - combine the two of them, and there's a solid argument to be made that a 9th Amendment right to keep and bears arms for self defense exists. That's how I would have decided Heller, and if you read between the lines of Justice Scalia's opinion, that's essentially what he did without explicitly mentioning the 9th Amendment.
 
Correct. It only has to be imagined by five Supreme Court Justices with creative writing skills.
No it means that the enumeration of such rights shall not be used to deny or disparage other rights.
 
Okay, that subject line is a bit extreme, but hey, it was a hook and it got you here.

What I mean is this. Often unalienable or natural rights are cited as a concept to justify all kinds of judicial hijinks. "This is clearly a natural right, so even though it's mentioned no where in the Constitution it must be a Constitutionally protected right, right?"
You apparently are not familiar with the Ninth Amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Such laws certainly have meaning and they were a source of inspiration for the freedoms we enjoy today. But in a legal sense, ultimately unalienable and natural rights amount to little more than political poetry. They sound nice but don't mean much.

I say this because at the end of the day the only rights you really enjoy are those your government chooses to protect. Doubt this? Let's pick one, liberty. Fairly uncontroversial as far as unalienable rights go, but do the people of North Korea have it today? Did those in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany? Did African Americans enjoy it in the United States prior to 1865 (or at times after)? An unalienable right means absolutely nothing when you're sitting in a concentration camp having been found guilty of a thought crime.

So are natural rights in anyway meaningful in a legal context?

What say you?
They don't mean much if you live in a sh*thole nation that does not recognize any of your rights, or goes out of its way to suppress your "unalienable" rights - like Canada. However, if you live in a nation that not only recognizes your natural rights but institutes built-in protections against government infringement of those rights, then those rights mean a great deal.
 
You apparently are not familiar with the Ninth Amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


They don't mean much if you live in a sh*thole nation that does not recognize any of your rights, or goes out of its way to suppress your "unalienable" rights - like Canada. However, if you live in a nation that not only recognizes your natural rights but institutes built-in protections against government infringement of those rights, then those rights mean a great deal.
You're welcome to read some of my other posts in this thread. They both explain my position and go well beyond the axiomatic statements you make here.
 
You're welcome to read some of my other posts in this thread. They both explain my position and go well beyond the axiomatic statements you make here.
You still haven't grasped that originally the Ninth Amendment applied only to the federal government. Only since the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment has all the Bill of Rights applied to the States. However, the Supreme Court decided to selectively incorporate those rights and apply them to the States when an issue is brought before them to review. As a result it was not until 1925 before the First Amendment was applied to the States. In 2010 the Supreme Court applied the Second Amendment to the States, 143 years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment. Just last year, in February 2019, the Supreme Court finally got around to incorporating the Eighth Amendment and applying it to the States, 152 years after it should have been applied.

The error was with the Supreme Court, not the law. Those Bill of Rights, all of them including the Ninth Amendment, also applies to the States, whether the Supreme Court acknowledges that fact or not.
 
You still haven't grasped that originally the Ninth Amendment applied only to the federal government. Only since the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment has all the Bill of Rights applied to the States. However, the Supreme Court decided to selectively incorporate those rights and apply them to the States when an issue is brought before them to review. As a result it was not until 1925 before the First Amendment was applied to the States. In 2010 the Supreme Court applied the Second Amendment to the States, 143 years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment. Just last year, in February 2019, the Supreme Court finally got around to incorporating the Eighth Amendment and applying it to the States, 152 years after it should have been applied.

The error was with the Supreme Court, not the law. Those Bill of Rights, all of them including the Ninth Amendment, also applies to the States, whether the Supreme Court acknowledges that fact or not.
No, I have grasped its meaning. I've also grasped your meaning, and I don't agree with it.

See post #286; it addresses your point.
 
I think you're confusing the 9th and 10th Amendments. The 9th only refers to rights retained by the people.
Since specificity is important, the 9th does not refer to the rights "retained" by the people. The 9th was a concession to those who were concerned that if you list 5- or 10 specific rights, people will come along and say "hey, that right isn't in the bill of rights, you don't have it." Which is false. So the 9th was a clarifier for all those who would make that argument by reminding them: just because it isn't listed here as a right, doesn't mean the government gets to deny it. Pretty key distinction in my mind. Not retaining a right but clarifying the people have all the rights, whether listed or not.
 
How can there be inalienable rights when all rights can be taken away?
in·al·ien·a·ble
adjective
unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.
 
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