There is No Biblical Basis of The Propsperity Gospel

RAMOSS · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
yet more ad hominems which show how weak your argument actually is. the only mistake I made was that it wasn't 40 it was 72 jewish scholars.

3rd century BC the jews in Alexandria translated the Septuagint into greek. they are jewish scholars. so you are calling them intellectually dishonest?
wow. you show once again why no one should believe anything you say.

this is like church history 101.

before that came the Hexpala. in which Origen had ancient Hebrew and translated them from there into greek.
you know for someone that claims to have all this knowledge your knowledge of early biblical history comes up short
and the only thing you can do is insult people which proves how lacking your argument really is.

And another mistake it was only the Torah, not the Psalms.

And, yet a third mistake the Greek says 'To diig' , not pierce

and the forth mistake is I didn't mention the Septigaunt, so your argument was a straw man.

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

Logicman said:
God doubled what he had before (Job 42:10). Would God do that if Job's original wealth was obtained by sinful means? I doubt it.

Also, I see nothing in the latter chapters of the Book of Job that says he left the Lord. In fact in the last chapter he prayed to the Lord for his friends.

Who said it was obtained by sinful means? He wasn't gainig it throug Usury ...

People don't have to be Christians and give. They can even be Christians and give according to their beliefs. But the government will confiscate what you have and even put you in jail if you don't give them what they want.

They'll also put you in jail if you glean.

BTW, the mosaic Law had taxation, the mosaic Law had redistribution, and the first Century Church had communal property.

You're full of folly, Racky. That link was self explanatory in showing early Jewish thought that confirmed the concept of the Trinity. It was clear that it was extra-biblical.

Aren't you the one who refuses to believe in the deity of Jesus, when the Bible clearly reveals it?

Early Jewish thought???? ...... Do you know when the Zohar was written?

Also did you actually read what the Zohar said? It's NOTHING to do with the Trinity.

Why don't you actually read Your links and your Sources ever?

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
i have no need you have been proven wrong so that is all that is required. verse after verse proves that you are incorrect and there are many many prominent theologians that disagree with you as well as have been cited time and time again. so there is not need to have a debate with someone that has already been proven wrong.

Ok .... so basically you're afraid of the outcome

, and no I haven't been proven wrong ...

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

it's just me said:
WTH? What version of Job is this?

I misswrote,

Job lost everything.

God blessed SOLOMON With wealth, but as teh bible says he got a ton of it through oppression and in the end he left god.

I was dealing With all the examples Logicman threw at me.

ludin · Apr 23, 2015

RGacky3 said:
Ok .... so basically you're afraid of the outcome , and no I haven't been proven wrong ...

as I have asked before 1000 times and have received 0 answer.
Please provide your theological degree and what theology school you attended. otherwise you are saying that the majority of theologians not just of this century but of the 1st century church and including the apostles are wrong.

so please provide what authority you have to make this statement.
don't answer with anything else but the above. if you can't supply this information then you are doing nothing but spouting your opinion which is incorrect and proven incorrect
by actual people that have PHD's in theology.

so no I am not afraid of anything.

ludin · Apr 23, 2015

RGacky3 said:
I misswrote,

Job lost everything.

God blessed SOLOMON With wealth, but as teh bible says he got a ton of it through oppression and in the end he left god.

I was dealing With all the examples Logicman threw at me.

what bible are you reading again because none of this is in the bible this is 100% inaccurate as always.

no Job didn't lose everything due to his obedience to God and faithfulness he was given 10x what he lost. In which he was a wealthy man to begin with.
no God blessed Solomon with wisdom because he asked for it. not wealth as Solomon was already wealthy being the son of David. He lost what he had because of his disobedience to God.

you can't deal with someone when you don't know what you are talking about.

ludin · Apr 23, 2015

RAMOSS said:
And another mistake it was only the Torah, not the Psalms.

And, yet a third mistake the Greek says 'To diig' , not pierce

and the forth mistake is I didn't mention the Septigaunt, so your argument was a straw man.

doesn't matter why do you consider the jewish priests that translated not only the torah but the septigaunt to be intellectually dishonest?
do you have any proof that they were dishonest when they did the translations?
to dig had nothing to do with anything. strawman as usual with you.

please address how the Jews that translated the scriptures into greek were intellectually dishonest.
you lack of knowledge in church history leaves little doubt that you don't know what you are talking about same as rgacky.

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
as I have asked before 1000 times and have received 0 answer.
Please provide your theological degree and what theology school you attended. otherwise you are saying that the majority of theologians not just of this century but of the 1st century church and including the apostles are wrong.

so please provide what authority you have to make this statement.
don't answer with anything else but the above. if you can't supply this information then you are doing nothing but spouting your opinion which is incorrect and proven incorrect
by actual people that have PHD's in theology.

so no I am not afraid of anything.

What theologeans of the first Century ... InFact which theologians of the second Century? Or Third Century ... tell me which ones dissagree With me?

I'm not appealing to my own authority I'm appealing to scripture.

I don't argue from authority, I argue from scripture.

what bible are you reading again because none of this is in the bible this is 100% inaccurate as always.

no Job didn't lose everything due to his obedience to God and faithfulness he was given 10x what he lost. In which he was a wealthy man to begin with.
no God blessed Solomon with wisdom because he asked for it. not wealth as Solomon was already wealthy being the son of David. He lost what he had because of his disobedience to God.

you can't deal with someone when you don't know what you are talking about.

Job lost everything, then he god it back plus more ... what's the Message of the story? Do you really think it's that wealth is good?

Are you telling me that Solomon didn't gain riches from oppression? Forced labor? A Heavy Yolk?

When did Solomon loose what he had?

RAMOSS · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
doesn't matter why do you consider the jewish priests that translated not only the torah but the septigaunt to be intellectually dishonest?
do you have any proof that they were dishonest when they did the translations?
to dig had nothing to do with anything. strawman as usual with you.

please address how the Jews that translated the scriptures into greek were intellectually dishonest.
you lack of knowledge in church history leaves little doubt that you don't know what you are talking about same as rgacky.

Let's go back and follow the thread.

The discussion was about the translation of the word PIERCE, and how the word PIERCE in Psalm 22 is a mistranslation that I consider dishonest, because the original hebrew is 'To Dig' in the closer variation. You then bring up the Septigaunt... and say claim I said the ancient translators were dishonest. That is a staw man right there, because of a number of reasons. The first reason is I didn't say that. You did. The second reason is the ancient translators did not translate the Psalms, because the Psalms are not part of the Torah, and the ancient translators only did the Torah, which are the 5 books of Moses. The Psalms are not part of that. Do you understand that? What part of 'The Psalms are not part of the Torah and were not translated as part of the original Septigauint ' don't you understand?

The next point you are failing to acknowledge is the FACT that even the later version of the sepitgauint, which was not part of the original translation, but was a later copy translated it to use the word 'To Dig' into greek as 'To Dig'. The later Chrisitans translators into Latin and English made it PIERCE, not to dig. This is dishonest.

And then you accuse me of lack of knowledge??

ludin · Apr 23, 2015

RGacky3 said:
What theologeans of the first Century ... InFact which theologians of the second Century? Or Third Century ... tell me which ones dissagree With me?

I'm not appealing to my own authority I'm appealing to scripture.

I don't argue from authority, I argue from scripture.

thank you for proving that you have 0 authority to saying that already established cannon is wrong.
thank you for proving that you have no authority to make the claims that you make.

no you are appealing to your own authority by claiming what you claim as true compared can calling thousands of years cannon wrong.
you have proven that you have 0 authority in this matter and we can take you opinion as a grain of sand.

Job lost everything, then he god it back plus more ... what's the Message of the story? Do you really think it's that wealth is good?

yet he didn't lose everything he had because God thought he had too much. It was a test of Jobs faithfulness to God. In return God blessed him more than what he was before.
so this kills your lack of understanding Job. the book of Job isn't about wealth or having too much.

Are you telling me that Solomon didn't gain riches from oppression? Forced labor? A Heavy Yolk?

When did Solomon loose what he had?

Solomon was a king who for a while followed in his father Godly footsteps. The kingdom was split in two and he lost his kingship after
he started worshiping the gods of all his wives. in fact it caused an entire line of David to be cursed so that they would never be King.

again you evidently don't understand this book either.

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
thank you for proving that you have 0 authority to saying that already established cannon is wrong.
thank you for proving that you have no authority to make the claims that you make.

no you are appealing to your own authority by claiming what you claim as true compared can calling thousands of years cannon wrong.
you have proven that you have 0 authority in this matter and we can take you opinion as a grain of sand.

What established cannon? I'm not claiming anythin in the bible isn't in the bible.

yet he didn't lose everything he had because God thought he had too much. It was a test of Jobs faithfulness to God. In return God blessed him more than what he was before.
so this kills your lack of understanding Job. the book of Job isn't about wealth or having too much.

Of course, that wasn't the reason, the point of the story had nothing to do With wealth.

Solomon was a king who for a while followed in his father Godly footsteps. The kingdom was split in two and he lost his kingship after
he started worshiping the gods of all his wives. in fact it caused an entire line of David to be cursed so that they would never be King.

again you evidently don't understand this book either.

After he died ....

He didn't loose everything when he was alive ...

ANd yes, he gained a lot of his riches through oppression.

ludin · Apr 23, 2015

RGacky3 said:
What established cannon? I'm not claiming anythin in the bible isn't in the bible.

you do it on a consistant basis. more so when it comes to the deity of Christ and the established cannon of his deity.

Of course, that wasn't the reason, the point of the story had nothing to do With wealth.

then why do you keep bringing it up?

After he died ....

He didn't loose everything when he was alive ...

ANd yes, he gained a lot of his riches through oppression.

you need to just quit you are embarrassing yourself.
He was King and his kingdom was fractured.

he didn't need to gained a lot of riches as he was already rich as it was passed on from his father david.
plus his constant marriages.

he didn't need to oppress anyone and this was the golden age of Israel so there was no need of oppression of anyone and trade flourished in the region.

RGacky3 · Apr 23, 2015

ludin said:
you do it on a consistant basis. more so when it comes to the deity of Christ and the established cannon of his deity.

Yes I Challenge the doctrine on the basis of the bible.

then why do you keep bringing it up?

I didn't, someone else brought it up as a defense of Capitalism, as if Job was about economics.

you need to just quit you are embarrassing yourself.
He was King and his kingdom was fractured.

he didn't need to gained a lot of riches as he was already rich as it was passed on from his father david.
plus his constant marriages.

he didn't need to oppress anyone and this was the golden age of Israel so there was no need of oppression of anyone and trade flourished in the region.

His Kingdom fractured after he died ....

Yes, he was already Rich, and he build a Whole lot more wealth through oppression ... as recorded in the scriptures.

BTW, if you want to know how God wanted Solomon to run his Kingdom Read Psalm 72.

ludin · Apr 24, 2015

RGacky3 said:
Yes I Challenge the doctrine on the basis of the bible.

nope you challenge based on your opinion you are using your own authority to say they are wrong and you have no authority to do so.

I didn't, someone else brought it up as a defense of Capitalism, as if Job was about economics.

well job does show that God doesn't hate wealth as you would lead people to believe.

His Kingdom fractured after he died ....

Yes, he was already Rich, and he build a Whole lot more wealth through oppression ... as recorded in the scriptures.

BTW, if you want to know how God wanted Solomon to run his Kingdom Read Psalm 72.

call it oppression all you want to it was a kingdom. things had to be run in a certain matter in order to ensure that they kingdom ran properly.
however if you have an objection to it then you have an objection with God because God said that David was a man after his own heart.
David was not the nicest guy in the world either, and Solomon would have learned a lot of his leadership through his father.

you have a myopic view of the bible and no authority to support any thing you say.

RGacky3 · Apr 24, 2015

ludin said:
well job does show that God doesn't hate wealth as you would lead people to believe.

No one said God hates wealth in itself.

call it oppression all you want to it was a kingdom. things had to be run in a certain matter in order to ensure that they kingdom ran properly.
however if you have an objection to it then you have an objection with God because God said that David was a man after his own heart.
David was not the nicest guy in the world either, and Solomon would have learned a lot of his leadership through his father.

you have a myopic view of the bible and no authority to support any thing you say.

I don't Call it oppression, the bible does.

ludin · Apr 24, 2015

RGacky3 said:
No one said God hates wealth in itself.

I don't Call it oppression, the bible does.

Click to expand...

his kingdom collapsed because he quit following God and was following the gods of his wives among other things. he lost his gift of wisdom which lead to his folly.
he put pride before him.

however this still has nothing to do with the original point.
he didn't need to do anything that you said he had to do as he inherited it all from David his father. Solomon became king at a great time in Israel history.
unfortunately due to his own folly he split the kingdom.

RGacky3 · Apr 27, 2015

ludin said:
RGacky3 said:

his kingdom collapsed because he quit following God and was following the gods of his wives among other things. he lost his gift of wisdom which lead to his folly.
he put pride before him.

however this still has nothing to do with the original point.
he didn't need to do anything that you said he had to do as he inherited it all from David his father. Solomon became king at a great time in Israel history.
unfortunately due to his own folly he split the kingdom.

Click to expand...

His Kingdom collapsed AFTER he died, and what did his son say? My father put a Heavy yolk on you, but mine will be heavier, and then there came a revolt ... so yes, there was PLENTLY oppression. AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE!!!!

ludin · Apr 27, 2015

RGacky3 said:
ludin said:

His Kingdom collapsed AFTER he died, and what did his son say? My father put a Heavy yolk on you, but mine will be heavier, and then there came a revolt ... so yes, there was PLENTLY oppression. AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE!!!!

Click to expand...

red herring it still has nothing to do with the original point which was that Solomon was already wealthy.
the kingdom had started to split before he died it just didn't get there until after if you know anything about the bible.

in any event you once again prove that you don't know what you are talking about.

fact is God nor Jesus hates wealth or money. The specifically teach against the love of money above all else. IE making money your god instead of Christ.
more to the point Jesus nor the early church forced anyone give anything. they gave of their own free will to do so and to help each other out.

your distortions of the bible are clear for anyone that has any idea of what the bible says.

tosca1 · Apr 27, 2015

RAMOSS said:
And here we have the psychological technique known as 'projection', where someone takes their own trait, and projects it on to another person.

:roll:

Projection. Here we go again with big words.

You kept accusing Ludin of being dishonest. You are the one who's projecting. You know why I say so?

Remember this in the other thread in Philosophy? Post #86?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/215492-do-we-know-bible-true-9.html

RAMOSS said:
There is no such thing as the 'Old Testament' in the Jewish religion.

Hebrew Bible, also called Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, or Tanakh, collection of writings that was first compiled and preserved as the sacred books of the Jewish people.

Hebrew Bible | Jewish sacred writings | Encyclopedia Britannica

RAMOSS said:
And then you accuse me of lack of knowledge??

If you didn't even know that basic fact about the Old Testament.....:lol:

RGacky3 · Apr 28, 2015

ludin said:
red herring it still has nothing to do with the original point which was that Solomon was already wealthy.
the kingdom had started to split before he died it just didn't get there until after if you know anything about the bible.

in any event you once again prove that you don't know what you are talking about.

fact is God nor Jesus hates wealth or money. The specifically teach against the love of money above all else. IE making money your god instead of Christ.
more to the point Jesus nor the early church forced anyone give anything. they gave of their own free will to do so and to help each other out.

your distortions of the bible are clear for anyone that has any idea of what the bible says.

Yes ... he was already wealthy ...

I never claimed God or Jesus hates wealth, or Money.

I claimed that systems where the wealthy prosper while the poor suffer are contrary to God's principles, and that God has always supported more communal/egalitarian systems.

ludin · Apr 28, 2015

RGacky3 said:
Yes ... he was already wealthy ...

I never claimed God or Jesus hates wealth, or Money.

I claimed that systems where the wealthy prosper while the poor suffer are contrary to God's principles, and that God has always supported more communal/egalitarian systems.

which you would be wrong but again your distortion of the bible is clear enough.
God nor Jesus never forced anyone do to anything which is what you suggest.

they said to help your neighbors.

that is why there are charities and people help other people all the time. if you want to live in a commune please there are plenty of them.

RGacky3 · Apr 30, 2015

ludin said:
which you would be wrong but again your distortion of the bible is clear enough.
God nor Jesus never forced anyone do to anything which is what you suggest.

they said to help your neighbors.

that is why there are charities and people help other people all the time. if you want to live in a commune please there are plenty of them.

Strawman ... Red Herring ... I'll repeat my claim so we can actually have it Clear.

I claimed that systems where the wealthy prosper while the poor suffer are contrary to God's principles, and that God has always supported more communal/egalitarian systems.

There is No Biblical Basis of The Propsperity Gospel

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