• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!![W:67]

D

Danuta B.

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Hello!!

Everybody knows that there is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion.

You can ask me why I think so>

Looking at the worldwide trends - if I can call it that way-we can notice that the abortion on one hand is being seen as something natural and ordinary, on the other hand it is seen as a murder.

Why it is so??

Well, some are saying that in the rich countries the trend is :"Its not a murder-don't worry-it's only a kind of a operation."

In my opinion such trends are not only in the rich countries.....-it's not the truth.

As for the second trend- not only Christian countries are seeing abortion as a murder -in my idea.

It's not the point of the economical and religious state of matters only-but also "deeply-rooted thinking"-if you know what I mean.


What's your idea then>>>>????
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


There is no doubt that the global dimension you see is correct and there can also be no doubt that in almost every country with legal abortion at present, it was a very severe crime only a few decades ago. At the same time it now is considered a crime by most of the larger traditional religions, ahas actually been names a mass murder on the level of the Holocaust by ethics convent of one of the largest such organization pronounced by the religion's leader and extends so far as to consider as an example every person that participates in the introduction of a law permitting abortion to have excommunicated him- or herself. This is also the case for people that help and assist abortions say for instance by paying the bill.
Abotion also throws up rather interesting questions for non Theist ethics, which are generally not ignored.

And yes, it is excedingly interesting that it is happening around the world. Watching it unfold is a spectacular social science field experiment reminiscent of the wave that swept Western culture at the beginning of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries and effectivly installed the paradigm that euthenasia of the handicapped and carriers of genetic deficiencies was good and eventullay necessary to allow society to prosper. This was quite rationally extended, once the possibility of a basic redefinition of the type of human to be protected under the law was accepted, to include groups that were undesirable who were then eliminated. This culminated and in a number of cases many of the persons that had acted under the social paradigm and in full accordance with the laws of the land were hanged.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Daunta, your writing is like that of someone who is either very young or for whom English is not your first language. I can't really grasp your point except that abortion is a global "controversion". I did understand what joG was saying, though, and I think that it's a very ignorant position to take.

The idea that the world is struggling with the ethics of abortion or that it is considered by anyone other than misogynist traditionalists as a "holocaust" is laughable. Unfortunately, eighty percent of the people on this planet claim to believe that there is an invisible being who cares if we manage our reproductive lives in certain ways. Even with the glaring problems that over population cause on this planet, some people insist that abortion and even contraception be treated like a murder. Based upon those numbers, I could argue that religion is directly responsible for many of the social ills we experience as a species. Hunger, sickness, ignorance, exploitation of children and women, all of these things are exacerbated by the idea that humans must honor a patriarchal deity and that sex must produce offspring. If the religious accept, as a natural byproduct of faith, that these horrible things must exist rather than allowing women to make choices with their own bodies, then we have a larger holocaust to worry about, both intellectual and cultural.

I don't know if you call yourself "pro-life", Daunta, but many people do, not realizing how that label is contradicted by medical realities. Are you willing to advocate for women at all, who can easily be killed by pregnancy? Don't their lives matter or is the "sin" of sex enough to impose the death penalty upon them, not through direct judgment but through favoring dogma to a more realistic accounting of the risks of pregnancy. I say that with the risk of death that women bravely undertake in procreation should come the right to choose that risk.

I, for one, am really tired of this debate with all its sacred cows and religious undertones, calling fetuses "innocent" as an implied judgment of women. If any woman is so enamored with the concept of super nature that they wish to forego any right to their own physical self-defense and any obligation to feel an emotional connection with or to ensure the well being of their existing children then you and joG have just declared that human life and love are less important than pleasing invisible gods. I'm disgusted by the whole idea, especially for how entitled to such inhuman positions people seem.

What hope does this human planet have when we care less about objective metrics of life quality and are more concerned with pious exercises, no matter how they manifest in reality? I would say that god has done a number on our species but, in truth, we do it to ourselves.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

Good post.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Except of course that the abortion rights issue has absolutely nothing to do with murder on handicapped people over 100 years ago because of perceived genetic issues.

Abortion rights are the (in most countries of course) fight for women to control their own reproductive rights when it comes to pregnancies. The struggle for better birth control was the first war in that, the second one was the right to obtain abortions, the third one is changing the anti-woman attitude in job prospects/wage and in laws stopping rape inside marriages and maybe they need a fourth one in all the backward nations of this world where a woman still has none of these rights mentioned above here because of ignorant religions or even more ignorant men/politicians (usually conservatives).
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

The problem with discussing abortion is there are so many lies being passed around and that just stirs up more hostilities.

Abortion is really a political issue concerning "over population" so the political leaders want to stop or slow down the population growth and especially to stop the poorer people and the minority population from growing and so promoting abortions is one of the political remedies along with birth control by any means.

This is the age old strategy of divide-and-rule where abortion pushes the population to argue and fight each other without looking at the true source being that the governments does not want more babies and the government uses its own ways to get what it wants.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Hogwash! The government in this country is not concerned with "overpopulation." Many of them ARE concerned about pleased their constituency base, and while the constituency base may not be a majority opposed to abortion, the loudest members are opposed. Why do you think there have been a multitude of anti-abortion bills proposed and passed the last few years? Those politicians believe they are pleasing their constituents and will be reelected.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

America is obsessed with the question.

Europe not nearly so much.

I don't know about the rest of the world.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

OKgrannie said:
Hogwash! The government in this country is not concerned with "overpopulation."
Click to expand...
The USA really has the third largest population in the world, and it is estimated to grow considerably.

Link here = Internet World Stats - Ten Countries with the Highest Population in the World

So the USA has been worried about our over-population since the mid 20th century (abortions became legal in 1973), and lots of anti-population strategies began way back then and their solution was to push birth control onto the population including the widespread use of abortion.

Another big point about the anti-population strategies is that the ideal is to stop or slow down the over-population by the poor and especially the minority (the black) population.

The abortions do not kill off the constituents, even if it can be viewed that way.

There are tricks in Politics which most people never recognize, as in a Politician will claim to be against abortion and they pass anti-abortion bills but those bills are created in such a way which can never stand up in Court, and that way the Politician can claim to be against abortions for the benefit of the constituents while in fact by having the Courts overrule the bills it makes the abortion laws even harder to fight. It is a political trick or a charade.

Ronald Reagan said that he wanted abortions to be made illegal - but Reagan never even offered such a bill, and under Bush 43 the so-called Christian anti-abortionist the rate went up, see HERE.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


So long as abortion is an individual choice made by individual women, it is useless as a population control measure. Most of the women choosing abortion go on to have children later. Approximately 60% of women choosing abortion already have children. To affect the overall population level, legislation would be required to force women to abort limiting the number of children they can produce, similar to the situation in China in the past. Neither abortion nor birth control have been pushed onto the citizens, nor encouraged. It is women's demands for BC and abortion that has changed the availability.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

Tim the plumber said:
America is obsessed with the question.

Europe not nearly so much.

I don't know about the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

It's not much of an issue here in Canada. The country considers it 'settled law'. There's a minority who are anti choice but there's a snowball's chance in you-know-where of that happening. Even our Prime Minister, who is personally against abortion, wants it to remain legal.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

All that really means is that you (as like so many other people) are so consumed in your own self-interest that you can not see the big picture.

There are powerful positions like Politicians and Corporate Executives who look over the entire population as like a chess board or "Stratego" where the people do as they are told.

The parents (both fathers and mothers) could not make any choice about abortion except that the high-powers provide the abortion facilities and give the Doctors their license to perform and they allow the message to get out.

It is no real difference from providing alcohol and liqueur stores to the population and making narcotics available, because the people behave like mindless sheep and just do as instructed to do.

In order to see the true circumstance then you (or anyone) must come out of your shell and see the world as it really is.

If you think the Gov gives the population what they ask for (or demand) then we would have free universal health care, we would not have poverty, there would be decent well paying jobs for everyone, the higher education would be for everyone, and etc etc etc.

The abortion industry is not provided because the Women want it (as if it were only women who want it) - it is what the Gov wants to be giving to the population, and the only thing the Gov wants is to have population control.

The governments calls us as "Human Resources" instead of human beings - and that is based on their unwholesome perspective.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Back in the day when government denied women's rights to abortion, as was the case for more than a hundred years, women had them anyway. Providers provided them anyway. And women had them in numbers very close to those of today. Government cannot control everything.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


^ Absolute truth.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

That is NOT true.

An illegal abortion was very rare, and those that did would have been happy to use contraception if it had been available.

And even back more than 100 years ago the abortions were being pushed onto the parents (both the mothers and fathers count).

If the parents were given a warm welcome for being pregnant and if we stop degrading pregnancy and stop the negativity against child birth and if we start supplying realistic assistance to the parents then the rate of abortions would go way down.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Illegal abortions were not rare.

When Abortion Was a Crime

The evidence of people's behavior—the persistent use of abortion by women of all social groups, and the sympathy of many men and women for their doing so—suggests the existence of an alternative popular morality in conflict with the law. The popular attitude toward abortion viewed it as an appropriate response to an unwanted pregnancy in specific situations. A large segment of the female population had one or more abortions at some point in their lives, and many of those women gained support—material and emotional—from their male partners, female friends, and relatives. The antiabortion views written into statutes nationwide and asserted by the leaders of medicine not only did not reflect reality, but were hostile to the attitudes and behavior of many Americans.
In 1920, one medical commentator asked rhetorically, did "public opinion in the United States sanction abortion?" and concluded that it did indeed. "The United States," he argued, "tolerates abortion done within the bounds of discreet secrecy." Abortion was widely practiced, openly discussed, and accepted by many people, but only within small groups—between couples, inside families, and among groups of female friends. Only a few people articulated this popular but proscribed view in print. Even the commentator who argued that the public accepted abortion said so anonymously. Instead of acknowledging the prevalence of abortion, the public overlooked it and treated it, said "A. B. C.," as "an open secret."
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Yup.

Good book. Read it years ago. Refer it to people who somehow think abortions only started happening with any regularity after 1973.

What did happen after then though, was less women were dying.

Historically speaking too -- abortion was legal in the 18th and early 19th century.

Take a look at original newspapers and magazine mid-19th century. I have them in my archives, the originals. Lots of ads for "women's remedies" and elixirs that would take care of "stopped menses."

It would cure it fast. There were even ads for doctors who would "fix" the problem.
Everyone knew what they really were. What's the number one cause of a woman having a missed period?? Three guesses??

During the depression as well, about a million abortions a year took place. Not much was talked about it, but it also was not as frowned on - people understood better then the vivid the relationship between economics and reproduction. An awful lot of women were still dying from the illegal practice though.

Another good book:

The year after abortion was legalized in New York State, the maternal-mortality rate there dropped by 45 percent -- one reason why legalization can be seen as "a public-health triumph" by Katha Pollitt



Abortion in American History
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

I do not believe that to be accurate, but I also know that there is no reasonable way to dispute that claim because of the intention.

So I will just pretend that is is true just for the sake of discussion.

As such I can not understand why you would not be ashamed of that info, as do women really hate their own body function?

In history we know that young children (and babies) were thrown into a fire as a human sacrifice, see 2 Kings 17:31, and it was really a way to get rid of the unwanted child.

History also reports that the old Romans would just wait for the unwanted baby to be born and they just took a dagger or knife and killed the baby when it was born, and the record tells that it was very common to see the dead body of babies on the junk piles and trash heaps.

The old idea of killing babies was as a sin-offering in that the parents (both parents but especially the mother) had committed a sin and so the baby was a blood sacrifice for that sin.

I see the same thing today with abortions, in that the babies (or fetus) are unwanted and seen as a mistake or as an accident or just as being trouble so an abortion today is really equivalent to the blood sacrifice of old.

And it is an important distinction that killing the baby (or abortion) is always a way of blessing the parents (both parents) because having the baby would make some hardship while exterminating the baby makes the parents happy and better off (in their view).

This is why the Pro-Life movement is trying to tell people to start loving your babies and to start seeing the baby as a blessing and start respecting your selves.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


So many countries around the world have been living under oppressive Catholic tenets for centuries. Those are the countries with the most rigid laws. The church's influence has strong holds within governments.

Nations, like the US, have had to admit that a uterus and penis belonging to the female and male sex of the human species is NOT a LOGICAL, REASONABLE, VIABLE justification to discriminate between women and men and create separate rights by which each sex will be protected.

Our Constitution gives EQUAL PROTECTION as stated in the 14th Amendment. The Constitution also says that neither men or women can be deprived of life, liberty, and property without DUE PROCESS OF LAW.

Over the past 100 years the S.C. realized that the Constitution couldn't be legally effective without "Right to Privacy".

Thus both medical providers and women's medical relationship is PRIVATE. This includes tests, diagnosis, treatments and MEDICAL PROCEDURES which are recognize by states and federal law as LEGAL procedures.

So it's a total crock to imply that over population or host of other nonsensical reasons are the impetus for pro-choice's deceptive reasons for crusading for their cause.

Women are standing up to governments and demanding equal protection and rights under the law.

So in this nation the true nemesis for pro-life is....the unborn don't have equal protection...and herein lies their quest, their battle, their need to substantially reduce or dismantle women's Constitutional Rights - so they can transfer them to the unborn.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


LOL, women do not hate their body functions, they simply want to control them. These days an unexpected pregnancy can be financially devastating as well as socially stigmatizing. As well as impacting a woman's career.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

OKgrannie said:
LOL, women do not hate their body functions, they simply want to control them. These days an unexpected pregnancy can be financially devastating as well as socially stigmatizing. As well as impacting a woman's career.
Click to expand...
As always my questions go unanswered - as like why are you not ashamed to say such a thing?

An "UNEXPECTED" pregnancy, as if the result of the action is so mysterious or unknowable.

And "financially devastating" which means the babies are murdered for financial profit.

And the big one of "socially stigmatizing" where the parents are pressured by society to kill their babies before they are born.

And kill the baby for your career.

You are not ashamed but I feel ashamed for you and ashamed of you.

Instead of being proud of your natural body function the abortions make so that the parents can run and hide away instead of rejoicing.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

JP Cusick said:
As always my questions go unanswered
Click to expand...
Perhaps you should ask more intelligent and relevant questions instead of making stupid emotional comments.

An "UNEXPECTED" pregnancy, as if the result of the action is so mysterious or unknowable.
Click to expand...
Tell me, do you constantly worry about being killed? It must be terrible to live with such paranoia and could be the cause for your reasoning.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Since the beginning of human life, there have been pregnancies that were ill-timed or unwanted. It is not a matter for shame. It is just incredibly unbelievable that anyone would think all pregnancies are a matter for rejoicing. Do you honestly think parents should rejoice about a pregnancy when they cannot afford to care for the children they already have? Please take a look at the real world and stop viewing everything idealistically.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!

But neither you nor I are doing that, as we are not the ones pregnant, just as the big abortion industry is just profiting from the troubles of the citizens.

When the parents can not afford a new baby then we as friends or as Public Assistance could offer to help the parents to afford their own baby, but instead people like you do not offer caring assistance as you promote the ugly way out, as you tell those other parents to dispose of their baby and then their finances will get better.

Our nasty hateful society will give the parents assistance to kill their baby - oh yes, but to help the parents to have their baby that is not given.

You brag as if you are doing them a favor by killing their baby, so you are the parents truest and lowest enemy of them all.

That is the reality - the real world.

And I really do see pregnancy as a cause for rejoicing and for happiness.
 
Re: There is a huge worldwide controversion about abortion??!!!


Good. When you are pregnant, you make the choice to keep it.

If it's not your body, you don't get to tell other people you'll never know what to with their lives.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…