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There has never been a "War on Drugs" ... Lets Be CLEAR

TheHonestTruth

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Let's be clear:


There is not now, nor has there ever been, a "War on Drugs."

What there is is a cynical program of political duplicity; the intent of which is not to prevent drug abuse (which it encourages), but to create a climate of distrust, fear, hostility, alienation, divisiveness, and violence within our society. The so called "War on Drugs" is in reality a war of cultural prejudice waged primarily against the young, the poor, the non-white and the socially disaffected to the advantage of the Elected, the Corporate, the Privileged and the Few.


I suggest watching the History Channel's special they show once every couple months called "Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way"


It turns out that the drug laws were all about connecting foreign drugs with foreign people, nobody cared if white people used drugs since this was assumed to be a fundamental human right.


Thats why it took a constitutional amendment to ban our drug of choice, alcohol. And another amendment to repeal the failure of prohibition.


You hear the argument, that "for better or worse, alcohol is a part of our society"

Well, we see that banning alcohol failed, why should it work for other drugs. The fact is that other drugs are less dangerous and less appealing and keeping them illegal only makes their problems magnified and creates crime, addiction, corruption, and hypocrisy.


Politicians get up and tell us theyve smoked pot and snorted cocaine, yet they advocate throwing your ass in jail for a dimebag. Get real.
This drug war is a myth used for political gain, its cloaked in lies, and its a sick policy against this nation that breeds nothing but evil.
 

Kandahar

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TheHonestTruth said:
This drug war is a myth used for political gain, its cloaked in lies, and its a sick policy against this nation that breeds nothing but evil.
Amen. Just like Prohibition caused the rise of the mafia, the War On Drugs has caused a rise in drug cartels and inner-city gangs.

The war on drugs has absolutely devastated poor communities for decades, and is the single biggest cause of poverty. It should be ended immediately, and all drugs (with the possible exception of those that cause extreme violence) should immediately be legalized.
 

TheHonestTruth

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Kandahar said:
Amen. Just like Prohibition caused the rise of the mafia, the War On Drugs has caused a rise in drug cartels and inner-city gangs.

The war on drugs has absolutely devastated poor communities for decades, and is the single biggest cause of poverty. It should be ended immediately, and all drugs (with the possible exception of those that cause extreme violence) should immediately be legalized.

I hear your arguement about the "violent drugs" because I had that same line of thinking a year ago. Drugs like crack, meth, etc should be illegal right?


But I realized that this only does exactly what other drug prohibition has done, it creates a black market, it makes the drugs more attractive to people because of the forbidden fruit aspect, and it would only create more abuse of these horrible substances by making only a couple drugs illegal and glamourizing them in that way.




Drug use is deglamorized if we legalize it correctly. Brown paper packaging, sold to adults only, no advertising, only county run stores with ID cards that monitor quantites purchased to prevent black market dealing to kids. We couple that with penalties to increase if you sell to kids and if you drive DUI under the substance of any drug including the worst of all, alcohol.


But we have to take a gradual approach to ending the failed war on drugs. It has created addicts of drugs (that most people never would have tried if they were legal).

The first step is seperating the soft drugs from the hard drug market.


By legalizing cannabis (marijuana) first we end the drug war on its own within ten years of this first step, since it is the backbone of the drug war today. There is very little demand for other drugs because they are all so horrible. Also currently cannabis acts as a gateway drug because its so harmless, that people try harder drugs today only because people who realized they were lied to about pot then think theyve been lied to about other drugs as well, and so this creates a naive gateway effect. Its very dangerous. If we want to end the drug problem, we must seperate the markets by taxing and regulating soft drugs.

Then after 10 years of a seperated market we can decriminalize hard drugs and then within 10-15 years they can be taxed and regulated under strict controls, brown packaging, no glamour, but it will be there if you choose to use it. The problem today is that society has been convinced by lying politicians that predict an unrealistic black and white approach to ending the drug war.

They claim that we would ruin the world with drug addiction, but they fail to realize that most people try these boring drugs because they have been made glamourous through their illegality. If we make drugs as boring as alcohol and tobacco and make laws that harshly punish irresponsible use, we win the war against these horrible and illogical policies.


Today we have only created more drug abuse and all the problems that come with a black market like crime, corruption, and gang violence. Its time for an end to this insane policy that was originally based on racism and continues to function this way almost a century later.
 

Kandahar

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TheHonestTruth said:
I hear your arguement about the "violent drugs" because I had that same line of thinking a year ago. Drugs like crack, meth, etc should be illegal right?
I was thinking more of the drugs that are almost guaranteed to cause violence in anyone who takes them, like PCP.

TheHonestTruth said:
But I realized that this only does exactly what other drug prohibition has done, it creates a black market, it makes the drugs more attractive to people because of the forbidden fruit aspect, and it would only create more abuse of these horrible substances by making only a couple drugs illegal and glamourizing them in that way.
You may be right. Perhaps there should be some kind of intermediate step to see if legalizing them would work. For example, it could be legal to take "violent" drugs, but only in designated places. Then if it works, it could be more broadly legalized.
 

TurtleDude

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galenrox said:
People can responsibly use PCP, I just can't imagine why they would.
And drug prohibition actually increases PCP use, since some weed is laced with it.
People should be held accountable for their actions, not the substance that placed them in the state of mind they were in when they commited that action.

I agree-the war on drugs has created 75% of the violent crime in this country
 

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Make it legal and tax the hell out of it....
 

Kandahar

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scottyz said:
Make it legal and tax the hell out of it....
Meh, that would be a little better than the current situation, but it would still amount to de facto criminalization of it and would still lead to black markets.

I'm for making most drugs legal and only taxing them a reasonable amount (as long as socialism infects our health care system), to cover the costs of treating drug-related illnesses.
 

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Reasons for legalization:

o Takes profit away from criminals, weakening criminal organizations
o Users have less need to commit crimes to support an expensive habit
o Users aren't injured taking unregulated street drugs
o Users aren't stamped "criminals" making it less problematic to seek assistance
o The country saves $30 billion a year in drug enforcement activities
o The country receives additional billions in tax revenue.
o People are not incentivized to make money in criminal drug activity and will instead pursue legitimate employment.
o Scores of millions of Americans will not be acting criminals
o The country saves scores of billions in incarcertation costs spent locking away an absurd porportion of people for drug related offenses.
o The use of drugs is "de-glamorized"
o Huge sums of money is not sent to funding groups which destabilize drug producing nations.
o It eliminates corruptions associated with crime related payoffs
o Certain illigal drugs, like marajuana, are much healthier and safer to use than currently legal drugs such as tobacco and alcohol.
o Drug consumption statistics will be much more accurate and use nationally will be more easy to track

Reasons against legalization:

o It *may* cause an increase in the number of drug users -- though it may cause a decrease.
o It *may* make drugs more accessible to kids.
o People who have a stake in prohibition related activities -- law enforcement, penal system primarily, may lose their jobs. "Get tough" politicians will lose something to demogouge about.
o People who feel drug use is a moral issue will feel the country is more immoral.

Did I forget anything?

Weighing the factors -- no contest to me.
 

Bin Forgotton

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Legalazation of drugs is worth looking at. But I really do get tired of people saying pot is harmless. Its gotton much stronger over the years, and in some people can cause acute parinioa. This can affect everything from interaction with others, driving, and possibly violence. Cocaine? Come on. Coke can destroy your life MUCH faster than alcholol. A matter of month's, not years. Same for meth and herion.
 

TheHonestTruth

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Bin Forgotton said:
Legalazation of drugs is worth looking at. But I really do get tired of people saying pot is harmless. Its gotton much stronger over the years, and in some people can cause acute parinioa. This can affect everything from interaction with others, driving, and possibly violence. Cocaine? Come on. Coke can destroy your life MUCH faster than alcholol. A matter of month's, not years. Same for meth and herion.
Marijuana is the most harmless recreational drug there is on earth. Being more potent means very little, people smoke less to achieve the same effect.


And no drug is harmless, however marijuana is the safest and least harmful of any recreational drug including alcohol and tobacco which kill more than a half million people every year.

What most people dont realize is that the drug war creates drug abuse and all the problems it pretends to fight. If you really want to stop drug abuse we need to tax it and regulate it for adults and increase penalties for misuse of drugs. Use of a drug should not be grounds for jail, even if its destructive to you, we dont jail people for poor health decisions. But you should be punished far more if you misuse drugs and break laws under their influence, that is how we solve drug related problems in society, accountability and a controlled system of regulation.
 

Iriemon

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Bin Forgotton said:
Legalazation of drugs is worth looking at. But I really do get tired of people saying pot is harmless. Its gotton much stronger over the years, and in some people can cause acute parinioa. This can affect everything from interaction with others, driving, and possibly violence. Cocaine? Come on. Coke can destroy your life MUCH faster than alcholol. A matter of month's, not years. Same for meth and herion.
To be clear, I would not contend smoking pot is "harmless." I would contend it is (a lot) less harmful that either tobacco or alcohol or some commonly abused prescription drugs.
 

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Well said sir.

I would like to know how this "civil" law ever crossed over from Congress to the people of our nation; who did concieve it, create it, or consent to be governed by such a law. With "unlawfull" consequences carried out upon the governees by use of force applied by those who are not answerable to the power of their vote?

The people Concieve what is best for themselves, then create a bill, and then with a majority vote among them pass it into a law consenting to be governed by such boundaries. Those put in charge of carring out the enforcement as consented to are directly empowered by the vote. Eleceted into their offices are the police, laywers and judges trusted by their communities to see to the job of enforcment of laws. The head of the DEA, CHP, FBI, CIA, and Homeland Scrutiny are not answerable to the people. Imposing sentencing guidelines are Federaly enforced, general welfare they claim, to protect us all. Only protecting those enforcing to such laws, for if a citizen chose to still practice his freedoms the laws now take away his voice, for criminals can not vote.

When unable to say "no" to an idea, freedom of choice is devoid of liberty. To introduce a constant into 50 choices is not truly a free choice. Almost akin to being asked pick any breed of dog you desire, your choice, only it must be a dog with a purple coat. When one law backed by federal power is enforced upon all 50 states, is this Democracy?

KMS
 

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Will check out the blog. Thanks.

When you put the pros and cons down on paper, my first thought is that the pros of legalization outweigh the cons. The one problem that I cannot get over, however, is that if drugs are legalized, even marijuana, I dread to think of the message it will send to people and children. For people to look at the legalization, they will look and see that pot has been illegal and looked poorly upon for years, but now it is legal. What kind of message does that send?

I believe money would have to be poured into education programs to assist in the transition of the legalization. I'm not for or against it. I'm on the fence.
 

TheHonestTruth

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ShullsM said:
Will check out the blog. Thanks.

When you put the pros and cons down on paper, my first thought is that the pros of legalization outweigh the cons. The one problem that I cannot get over, however, is that if drugs are legalized, even marijuana, I dread to think of the message it will send to people and children. For people to look at the legalization, they will look and see that pot has been illegal and looked poorly upon for years, but now it is legal. What kind of message does that send?

I believe money would have to be poured into education programs to assist in the transition of the legalization. I'm not for or against it. I'm on the fence.

Yes, what messages does it send if we make it legal?

First the government would have to admit we made a mistake. Today as we all know, this is very difficult. Governments will only admit mistakes when forced to as a result of overwhelming public pressure. They look to deflect blame whenever possible.

So to legalize pot would be to admit some terrible government mistakes and actions such as: Lying about drugs, lying about why the were made illegal, and lying to throw people in jail for an unjust cause.

Today we just lie and send all the wrong messages because average people know marijuana is very benign compared to other drugs, and they know the government is lying about it. So many people try it at some time in their life and see its far safer than getting drunk.

We have to be honest with kids. We cant lie to them. We see honesty has worked in the anti-tobacco campaign, smoking levels are down significantly among teens and the population compared to 20 years ago. We tell kids the same things we tell them about other activities restricted to adults only. We tell young kids they shouldnt drink or smoke because its bad for your health.

Today we lie to kids about cannabis. We far exaggerate the consequences of marijuana use. The anti drug campaigns are a joke, and studies show they have no effect, or the opposite effect on viewers. These propaganda commercials depict activities that anyone could do and then they blame it on marijuana. People know its a joke.

This creates the hard drug addicts by lying to us. People who try cannabis and find out its not a big deal then equate the simplicty of cannabis use with hard drug use which is also illegal, also sold in the same market and sold by the same people. In Holland by contrast, they allowed cannabis to be sold legally 30 years ago, and they have lower rates of cannabis use among youth, because they seperated the markets and succeeded in making marijuana as boring as alcohol or tobacco. I suggest viewing www.stopteenuse.com

And I agree, we should do lots of public education campaigns with new cannabis laws as a message to youth like we do with anti smoking ads. Also, we should not advertise marijuana. The way alcohol is advertised today is horrific. At least there a few more restrictions on tobacco advertising, but we need to ban drug advertising. We are being subconciously affected, sports sponserships plastered everywhere for beer, cigarette ads in magazines and on billboards, hot models now selling hard liquor on television (when did this start?!?) ! These drugs are glamorized through advertising, and we should not condone this. Our Congress makes money from these leach industries today in donations and in tax dollars, so our legislators have to start being ethical, responsible, and moral about our views on drugs in America. We have a really twisted system today that needs to be overhauled entirely.

But overall, legal marijuana will reduce teen use. Thats the message today that is being spun by politicians and anti drug groups, and its a horrible lie to tell. Today its easier for teens to buy cannabis at school (in a black market) than alcohol in a regulated market. Ask a kid which is easier to get, beer from a store or a joint from the local connection. Most kids say its easier to find marijuana, because legal vendors dont risk selling to kids. Drug dealers dont mind selling to kids because its illegal no matter what, and then the kids sell to each other.

We are only creating problems keeping it illegal. If an alcohol vendor sells to kids, they lose the license to sell. And very, very few adults will buy liquor for kids today, so we do more to protect them by making it legal for adults only. Accountability and regulation is the only responsible option.
 
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Stu Ghatze

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Kandahar said:
Amen. Just like Prohibition caused the rise of the mafia, the War On Drugs has caused a rise in drug cartels and inner-city gangs.

The war on drugs has absolutely devastated poor communities for decades, and is the single biggest cause of poverty. It should be ended immediately, and all drugs (with the possible exception of those that cause extreme violence) should immediately be legalized.



Wrong, ...its the DRUG itself that has CAUSED devastation to poor communities, & the whacko feel good liberals who want to protect the rights of the g-damn criminals that sell the junk, that also helps to prostitute many women into drug dependency, & prostitution itself, the spread of STD's, the laziness to work for an honest living, ..& the false belief that those engaging in the drug of their choice are the victims!

The cure is in vigorously PROSECUTING drug users, & sellers. Want to help those hooked? Fine, ...lets get them treatment to end their physical dependency, & once out of addiction, & they become "clean" again they are fit for society.

IF they go back to the same puke, PROSECUTE the shyte out of them because it was nobody's fault but their own, let them be accountable for their own bad choices!

Lets end the air-conditioned prisons, with the free time, gymnasiums, the basketball courts, the television sets with cable T.V. no less.

Not brutality, but CORRECTNESS....they are in jail to learn something, & to be punished, & it should not be so beareable that they have no fear of entering the prison system repeatidly like so many do who are absolutely incorrigible.

A blanket, 2-meals a day...some reading material, no pornography, a toilet, anything else they can go to hell, & LIMITED CONTACT with any other inmates is how ALL inmates should be treated.

And...have the GUARDS & prison officials run the prisons, not the g-damn criminals who generally violate other criminals. Those inmates engaging in intimidation, rape etc, or assault should be severly punished, ...Guarentee you, the whole crime crap would drop just like in the same fashion the bullshyte stops when the "trainee" starts their bootcamp in the military, or how China runs their prisons which has an extremely LOW repeat crime problem.

Unfortunatley, the revolving door of crime will never stop because as long as liberals exist....there will always be a F-ed up world because they (liberals) have no moral absolutes, & have not, nor ever will be able to discern what is right, & what is wrong, & who are the real threats to the human experience!;)
 

Kandahar

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Stu Ghatze said:
Wrong, ...its the DRUG itself that has CAUSED devastation to poor communities, & the whacko feel good liberals who want to protect the rights of the g-damn criminals that sell the junk,
If the drugs were legal, the black market would be eliminated and they wouldn't be sold by criminals. They would be sold by reputable businesspeople. If it's "protecting the rights of the g-damn criminals" by wanting to put them out of business, then so be it.

Stu Ghatze said:
that also helps to prostitute many women into drug dependency, & prostitution itself,
Same thing. If you get rid of the black market you'll also get rid of the ugly things associated with a black market.

Stu Ghatze said:
the spread of STD's, the laziness to work for an honest living,
If you're concerned about drugs causing people not to work, the solution to that is to end welfare programs, not to prosecute drug offenders.

Stu Ghatze said:
..& the false belief that those engaging in the drug of their choice are the victims!
I don't consider them victims (although I would certainly encourage them to seek treatment). It isn't about victimhood, it's about the right to take responsibility for one's self and to do as one pleases as long as one isn't harming others.

Stu Ghatze said:
The cure is in vigorously PROSECUTING drug users, & sellers. Want to help those hooked? Fine, ...lets get them treatment to end their physical dependency, & once out of addiction, & they become "clean" again they are fit for society.

IF they go back to the same puke, PROSECUTE the shyte out of them because it was nobody's fault but their own, let them be accountable for their own bad choices!
If they aren't harming anyone, why should they be prosecuted? Why don't you mind your own damn business, instead of advocating the waste of taxpayer money to lock people up to protect them from themselves?
 

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The cure is not in prosecuting (i.e. imprisoning) drug offenders. When one dealer goes to jail, a job opening is created. Its a never ending cycle, we only make the drugs more valued by increasing penalties, this makes the drugs harder to sell, the price goes up, and it attracts even more people to sell it because it becomes more lucrative. People push it harder, we create more addicts.

This is exactly what has happened since the drug war was started by Nixon and he created the DEA in 1970, drug addiction has skyrocketed since this time and so has the prison population. Since then ignorant people have been advocating harsher penalities and more of the same. The policy of upping the ante for the same failed policies has brought us more of the same, more utter failure in the war on drugs. It has failed to cure any of the social ills related to drug use.



Someone mentioned the revolving door as a result of "liberals". Im a libertarian so I dont fit any traditional category but I believe true crimes should be punished incredibly harshly, more harshly than 99.9% of the right wing. But I also believe victimless crimes dont merit imprisonment.

Understand, these horrible drug laws are what creates our revolving door in the prison system. More than half of all federal prisoners are serving time on drug offenses! That causes our prisons to be vastly overcrowded! Consequently we parole child killers, rapists, pedophiles, bank robbers, vandals, and violent criminals as a result of these horrible drug laws. We lock up the guy who is selling drugs at a concert for 10 years, and then we need to parole the sex offender who goes and rapes and kills again! America needs to get the priorities straight!


Under a regulated system of taxation and accountability, all the problems we associate with drug use vastly decline, and when they occur we can address them properly. Drug addicts are sick! They need medical treatment, not a jail cell. Drugs are available in prison, this is why heroin overdoses on death row occur! We cannot stop the human desire to use drugs, but we can punish those who use drugs and act irresponsibly and endanger others like we do with people who drive drunk. I think we need to vastly increase penalities for crimes committed on drugs including DUI which is the most pervasive of all because we advertise alcohol to the masses and sell it in public where it is consumed! Accountability, that sends the right message. You can make the poor health decision to use drugs, but you dont deserve jail unless you are an irresponsible person with drugs.

Today we accept that you can get blind drunk in your own home, as long as you dont endanger anyone else, that is how we need to treat all drugs unless we want all the problems we see today. We need to seperate the hard and soft drug markets, which will lower overall drug abuse since pot users wont be confronted with equating pot with hard drugs, that is why its a gateway today.

When legal:

Law should stipulate that we cant advertise them, county licensed sellers, brown paper packaging, no glitz or hype, age identification sold only to adults over 21. People can buy drugs in a vacuum sealed package for personal consumption in your home. We need to make these drugs more boring than alcohol and tobacco. Today we treat these drugs as if they are special, and people get enticed by this, so we would have much lower use rates if we succeed in making these drugs boring again like they were 100 years ago.

It is not healthy, but we dont lock you away for a poor health decision, the same way we accept that people can ruin their health with alcohol or tobacco.

And we need to stop buying into this facade that our government cares about our health and personal lives when they ban certain drugs. Alcohol and tobacco kill a half million people every year from health effects and ruin countless other lives, but these are personal decisions. The government shouldnt try to act as our health nanny, and they arent when it serves their purposes. Today our government has no problem taking tax revenue from these killers and no problem allowing them to be advertised to the masses by sponsorship of professional sports or allowing them to be plastered all over television, magazines, and billboards.

And I think its an outrage that our government spends on average $25,000-$30,000 a year to house one prisoner, especially when that person was say growing a few plants of marijuana for personal use and working as contributing taxpayer. Ive heard numbers as high as $40,000 a year to house a prisoner! That person is not contributing to the economy, but acting in complete opposite by costing taxpayers $30,000 per year.

I hope you know that the prison industry has been among the top 30 fastest growing industries for the past decade. Its a business, its an industry funded by the tax dollars we contribute! So think about it this way. You have a population of small time drug dealers, from low class areas that are dependent on welfare and create gang crime and turf wars over drugs. Now these unwanteds become like cattle to be herded up for profit to government workers!

If we made these drugs legal, most of this urban crime disappear. Drugs would be cheap, so crime would be reduced since it would be as a rare as crime committed to get money for booze. Urban crime boomed after the drug war was created. The 1960's saw very little in the way of urban warfare. But in 1970 when the DEA and the drug war was created by Nixon, urban crime took off along with the drug trade in urban areas.

When drugs are expensive it creates prohibition related problems. People are handling drugs to make money, so they get addicted. It creates crime. People rob and steal to get drugs and they battle each other for turf to sell. Alcohol prohibition created modern organized crime and the rise of the mafia, we should have learned a lesson from this.




But what would we rather have making up our prison populations? Non violent drug users in jail? So we have to parole violent criminals to make room, or a prison with only people who belong there for actual crimes against others?


The justice system today is a joke. You can drive drunk and get out of it if you are rich enough. You can sell drugs and go free without any prison time if you are rich enough. So we lock up the low level dealers who sell chickenshit quantities on the corner, while the big, protected and wealthy dealers go free.

Therefore all drug laws today target those who cannot escape the law with money. Mostly the poor and minorities who tend to be poor. We wont be able to change the justice system because it is made up of individuals, judges will always get their cash and magically the higher priced lawyers always get people off for crimes, its not just "debate skills" , money talks. Dont think for a second that cash doesnt change hands behind the scenes.

So the justice system is corrupt. But we can change illogical drug laws. We need to stop sending people to prison as non violent drug offenders who use drugs as a personal choice, unless you think we should send tobacco smokers and alcohol users to prison as well. We see that alcohol prohibition failed and drug prohibition has been far less successful than even that disaster in American history.
 
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Salah ud Deen

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What I find ironic is every time the US declares a war on something that something just becomes bigger. War on Drugs got you more drugs. War on poverty got you more poverty. War on Terror is getting us more terror.

 

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TheHonestTruth
The fact is that other drugs are less dangerous and less appealing and keeping them illegal only makes their problems magnified and creates crime, addiction, corruption, and hypocrisy.
...other drugs are less dangerous... must disagree. Cocaine (in all it's forms)
and heroin are most definitely very dangerous drugs. Potency certainly
plays a part. I would agree with you if you had kept it in context by saying
marijuana is less dangerous in some respects.

As for creating crime, addiction, corruption, and hypocrisy. Not sure where
you were going with those. How do you correlate legal status to creating
addiction? If you had said alcoholism is prevalent due to the legality of
alcohol I could agree. But to declare addiction is created through legislation
is absurd unless the law dictates the use of drugs.

As for enforcement, there must be a token effort to make any law
reasonably effective else we have anarchy. Look at the traffic laws.
The cops stop maybe 1/1000 of all speeding cars (if that). This effort
keeps just enough check on speed to declare the law effective (except
in and around Cleveland).

How many countries have legalized hallucinogens around the world? Not
many. There is a reason for the overwhelming majority of nations keeping
drugs illegal. Either they are against them morally, spritually or economically.
(Not that drugs aren't an economic force in and of themselves.)
 

XShipRider

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galenrox said:
People can responsibly use PCP, I just can't imagine why they would.
And drug prohibition actually increases PCP use, since some weed is laced with it.
People should be held accountable for their actions, not the substance that placed them in the state of mind they were in when they commited that action.
You're kidding, right? Half the population can't use the legal drug alcohol
without becoming out-of-control idiots... what makes you think other drugs
would get used "responsibly?:confused:
 

TheHonestTruth

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XShipRider said:
...other drugs are less dangerous... must disagree. Cocaine (in all it's forms)
and heroin are most definitely very dangerous drugs. Potency certainly
plays a part. I would agree with you if you had kept it in context by saying
marijuana is less dangerous in some respects.

As for creating crime, addiction, corruption, and hypocrisy. Not sure where
you were going with those. How do you correlate legal status to creating
addiction? If you had said alcoholism is prevalent due to the legality of
alcohol I could agree. But to declare addiction is created through legislation
is absurd unless the law dictates the use of drugs.

As for enforcement, there must be a token effort to make any law
reasonably effective else we have anarchy. Look at the traffic laws.
The cops stop maybe 1/1000 of all speeding cars (if that). This effort
keeps just enough check on speed to declare the law effective (except
in and around Cleveland).

How many countries have legalized hallucinogens around the world? Not
many. There is a reason for the overwhelming majority of nations keeping
drugs illegal. Either they are against them morally, spritually or economically.
(Not that drugs aren't an economic force in and of themselves.)
First off all, if you read this post you would know that the drugs we made illegal were based on political decisions and had very little to do with a perceived threat to society, the people using the drugs were the targets, rather than the drugs themselves. Other cultures have used hallucinogens for thousands of years, which is why we fear those drugs, whites never used them. Indians used peyote, south american natives (mexicans and aztecs and mayans) used mushrooms for example. These drugs are natural yet illegal because white cultures have historically had unfriendly relationships with these cultures.


The reason every other country has identical drug laws is because America pushed these laws on other countries in the 1960's. We convinced every other nation through the UN to stop the use of the drugs in their native countries because we didnt want the supply coming to America. But we see this has failed.




Yes, other drugs are less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco. That was a generalized statement, meaning most other drugs are less harmful to society or at least equal in damage, but no worse in my opinion based on the effect they have on the user. Cocaine and stimulants like amphetamines are closer to the danger of alcohol since it creates more bold behavior, but it is certainly no more dangerous. It takes only 4 times the amount of alcohol to kill you as to the amount it takes to get you drunk. People commit horrible crimes while drunk. That is dangerous. And even if one or two drugs were more dangerous than alcohol to a human body, it is not a reason to jail someone. You cant be jailed for poor health decisions. If you are irresponsible on drugs, take too much and commit crimes in wild state, you should be prosecuted harshly and swiftly to discourage people from overusing drugs, but we accept that responsible and moderated use is not anything to worry about just like we do with alcohol. A small percentage of society that will always overdo it and will get out of control, and they will pay the price when they are caught. In my opinion we need to punish the irresponsible use far, far, far more than we do today. I think DUI should be a no exceptions crime, if you are stumbling at a field sobriety test you should be in prison for years. That is how I feel.

Other drugs, Heroin, for example, is far less dangerous in how it effects people. You can die using any drug that can kill you with overdose, but today most heroin overdoses are caused by unregulated purity. If its normally 30% pure and an user gets 95% pure product, they have no way of knowing and they die as a result of not knowing.

The fact is that people on heroin are slugs and not a threat like alcoholics. They pose little danger to society because opiates make people slow, mopey, and tired. Whereas alcohol makes people have blurred vision takes 30 minutes to absorb creating an overdose death that hits unexpectedly when people may go to sleep and die in their sleep, (people pass out hours after drinking and then die when no medical attention can reach them because others around them assume they are just sleeping), it makes people bold and reckless, they feel like fighting and driving fast and wildly for example.




crime, addiction, corruption, and hypocrisy


Yes. Yes. Yes. and YES, it creates all of those problems as a result of their illegality.



Crime: Keeping drugs illegal creates prohibition related crime. People steal, rob and murder to get money to pay for drugs that have vastly inflated prices. Gangs and drug dealers kill people who dont pay because the drugs are so expensive people need huge amounts of money and often come up short. Dealers and gangs fight it out in turf wars killing each other, doing drive bys and killing innocent bystanders.


Addiction
: Keeping marijuana illegal acts as a recruitment tool to the harder drugs. If it were legal it would be no more of a gateway than alcohol or tobacco. But today we have a drug war for political reasons and so government wants it to continue, this is why they need a gateway drug so that a small percentage of users will cross over.

When we equate marijuana with hard drugs by keeping the market as one, we create ignorance. We put them in the same market sold by the same people, consequently people smoke some grass and find out its not a big deal and then a small percent will try other drugs equating them because they are also illegal and foolishly get addicted to these truly dangerous and physically addictive drugs. We need to seperate the hard from the soft drugs.

Not only that, but by creating this category of drugs that is supposed to be different, we create curiosity. People will always have the desire to try these drugs, but by making them illegal we create far, far more interest. These drugs are not special! We have to make them as boring as alcohol and tobacco! No, more boring, because we shouldnt allow them to be advertised and hyped up with packaging and presentation. We have to succeed in making drugs boring, which they are! By making them expensive and forbidden fruit, we create addicts because people are attracted to the rare, expensive, and taboo pleasures in society, that will never change. Caviar doesnt taste special, but its expensive. Its the same concept. Cocaine is the champagne of drugs for a reason, not because it is special. It wasnt special 100 years ago when it was dirt cheap. We must do our best to make drug use what it truly is, unglamorous, boring, and wasteful.


Corruption: Even the most uninformed anti drug people must know that prohibition creates corruption. Police officers and vice cops are on the pay roll for local drug dealers in every city. Border patrol and customs agents are paid massive amounts to ensure that shipments get through. And the fact that high priced lawyers always get people out of drug crimes is an indication that the justice system is full of corruption. You are foolish to think money isnt changing hands, its not just better debate skills you get with a high priced lawyer over a free state appointed lawyer, you are paying for pay offs, money talks. Cops, judges, vice agents, border patrol, customs, even military personnel have been linked to the drug trade because the money corrupts. Money and power to enforce law will always corrupt. People will always be enticed by the drug dealers who make massive amounts of cash in the illegal drug trade because they sell a black market product in high demand.

We have to take the money out of it to stop the corruption. Alcohol prohibition corrupted local police forces unlike anytime in our history prior to this. Drug prohibition has created far more widespread corruption.

Hypocrisy: Politicians admit to drug use as the standard these days. Its hypocrisy at its worse for these people to use drugs and then later throw us peons in jail for the same activities.They can’t have it both ways. For those who want to respond: "ya but they were just in their youth and they learned their lesson and cleaned up." That’s retarded circular logic. It proves they were able to use drugs and didn't need jail to get them to stop. There is a reason why kids use drugs and then stop on their own. If someone wants to do something as boring, wasteful, and stupid as drugs for a long period of time, they will pay the price naturally. Drugs are vices, like alcohol and any other vice, it has drawbacks which are built in, and you don’t need the law to prevent people from overusing vices. Almost all people stop when they experience the drawbacks of drug abuse. The health decisions catch up with them. And we don’t lock people up for making poor health decisions.
 
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TheHonestTruth

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Well, even if one or two drugs remained illegal, it would be a much better policy than today. But when you think about it, making any drug illegal is a bad policy. I am against all drugs being prohibited because keeping them illegal makes them seem special and unique and so really awful drugs will be used that otherwise would be ignored, such as PCP.

As for PCP, the few people that want to try it already will. I dont think anyone would try that drug if they were educated about it and it were legal. Very few people want to do this drug known as angel dust, but a few people will always do these things. Making it illegal would only make more people want to try it because we make it seem special when its not. Its retarded and if it were legal I contend that there would be a much lower demand than the already very low demand we have today for that drug.

In general, drug demand exists naturally, understand that. I do think we create a greater demand among people when drugs are illegal though since we make these drugs seem special.

But drug demand is a natural thing in a legal market. If its a drug that makes you feel good and you can maintain yourself under its influence, like moderate use of most of the popular drugs today, there will be a correlating demand. People use drugs that make them feel good.

PCP is a drug that people dont want to try because of its reputation, it makes people wig out and do wacky things but doesnt make people feel good. And legal status would not change its reputation as bad drug that isnt fun. For example, you can sniff gasoline because gas is legal, but why would anyone do that? Almost nobody would, its just not a concern because its so retarded and undesirable for people. If they do a drug and commit a crime they will be prosecuted and they should have their penalty doubled. That is how we counteract that fear; we double penalties for irresponsible use of any drug that you commit a crime while under its influence. If its really a drug that makes people do so many bad things, people wont use it. And I think the only reason it happens today is because people think its special because its illegal.
 
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TheHonestTruth

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Anyone reading this thread should watch this video:


Penn & Teller call B.S. on the war on drugs.



Here is Penn & Teller's Showtime series BullS*&% , this episode is really well made and it explains the hypocrisy and the insane policy of our so called drug war.

(30 minutes long)

Enjoy. :cool:

http://pot.tv/archive/shows/pottvshowse-2705.html
 

TheHonestTruth

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^^^^^^^^


Another point for Hypocrisy:

We act as if we are protecting society from drugs with these certain drugs being illegal, but that is sad a lie. We already have the truly dangerous drugs legal! They kill more than a half million people every year. How many people drive drunk, beat their wives and children drunk, fight people, and commit crimes drunk? How many cancer deaths are caused by tobacco every year? Meanwhile the less desired and less dangerous drugs are all illegal because they were outlawed when nobody cared since minority populations used them back when we outlawed them, and since then only unwanted counter cultures have used these drugs.

The government doesnt care if you ruin your personal life because you are irresponsible. Its not about your safety! This is why government makes huge amounts of money from killers like alcohol and tobacco!

Government is full of hypocrisy. It has no problem taking this money in taxes and in campaign donations and lobbying efforts from these killers. The government will allow alcohol to be advertised all over professional sports, television, magazines, and billboards. At least tobacco is restricted slightly more in where it can advertise, a drug that is scientifically as addictive as crack and kills 450,000 people every year!

If we are going to ban some drugs, lets ban the ones that people want the most and those which are the most destructive, alcohol and tobacco. Well, alcohol prohibition failed horribly so we cant try this again. As we see, drug prohibition has also been a colossal failure. Its time to be realistic about how this drug war began, how it has affected society, and what our government really does with drugs.
 
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