That's fair enough. So if we take 25% of Hillary supporters not voting for Obama, and a "sizable"/19% group of Obama supporters doing the same, and only 10% of Bernie supporters when they were people who are not Democrats and normally don't vote for Democrats so nearly all of his Democratic supporters voted for Hillary, it wouldn't be honest to single his supporters, who are the most supportive of the nominee, out as the worst.
Ok.
I don't think of them as "worst". Honestly, I think if they had the benefit of hindsight, they'd probably vote differently (i.e. for Clinton). I seriously doubt that many believed their votes would matter. And, honestly, EXCEPT for James Comey's historically bad/incompetent personal decision to publicly disclose a federal investigation of Clinton's campaign just a week before election day (while NOT disclosing that there was also a federal investigation of the Trump campaign underway as well)....Hillary would have won easily in 2016.
They affected the 'results' in the vote count, and they COULD have changed the election result. It doesn't make sense to say '25% of Hillary's Democratic supporters didn't back the nominee, but he won so it's fine, but 1% of Bernie's Democratic supporters didn't and she lost, so that's a far worse case'.
I don't know about the "1%", or whatever....but I otherwise agree in principle.
Again, I think if BOTH sides (Bernie and Hillary) could have a "do over".......
But we can't.
I think Bernie Sanders would have been a good POTUS. I think the same about Hillary Clinton. At the very worst, each would have improved things marginally, based upon their ability to garner Congressional support. And, of course....the SCOTUS thing......
...still enrages me.
You haven't listened to what I said. Even though I said it over and over. THESE ARE NOT DEMOCRATS. Bernie drew support from never-Democrat voters who had trump as their second choice. They didn't vote for trump because they're spiteful ultra-liberal Democrats, they voted for trump because they're right-wingers who would not botte for any Democrat except Bernie.
LOL...I'm trying to "listen". I am.
Ok, so you're arguing that a lot of Bernie's voters were (or would have been) NEW to the Democratic Party in 2016....AND would have taken voters from Trump, right? I'm aware of that. And if I recall correctly, there was some support for that in the pre-election polls as well.
If so, I thinks that's a really valid point, as well. No argument at all, my friend. NONE.
Who knows how that would have played out. I suppose there is an argument that Bernie could have won even without 25% of Hillary's voters (assuming that those people decided to NOT vote)..simply by stealing votes from Trump. The net-result in that scenario would be a lower total turnout election, with a Bernie win.
Interesting thought-exercise.
I just know that I'd have eagerly voted for Bernie, if he got the nod. He didn't. But since I voted for Hillary, I do feel entitled to criticize any potential Bernie voters who voted for Trump (or stayed home)...and now regret it (in hindsight).
I agree with all that, and I remind you I supported and voted for Hillary strongly over trump in the general, as Bernie did and nearly all of his *Democratic* supporters.
Yep. And I wish more Bernie supporters (or just Hillary hating Dems/Indies) did the same.
As LBJ said: It's better to have your rivals INSIDE your tend, pissing out....rather than OUTSIDE your tent, pissing in.
You and I are political pragmatists/realists.
I love idealism. I dream idealistic dreams. But I live in reality.
Glad to hear it. It sounds to me like you just have a misunderstanding about Bernie's supporters this time. *I spent the election arguing against those fellow Bernie supporters who advocated against voting for Hillary*. I was almost at war with a forum that seemed dominated by those views.
Maybe so.
But it fits with what I said, about his strength at appealing to voters who normally won't vote for Democrats. We can't blame them for not supporting Hillary, they were never going to and they aren't Democrats. The error is in viewing them as "ultra-liberals" instead of as more right-wing. Ultra-liberals didn't turn from Bernie to trump.
Again, I think this is a great point and I'm sure it applies to many of the voters we're talking about.
Bernie's populist economic agenda crosses over many lines.