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theism,agnosticism, atheism, morality

Logician Man

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Are there any theists here who believe religious skeptics ( agnostics,atheists ) are inherently less moral than theists simply because they question and/or reject all God claims. If YES, on what basis do theists give themselves the higher moral ground ?
 

beancounter

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The responses to this thread should be entertaining.

I once told a young Christian women that I was an Atheist, and she asked me why I worshiped Satan...:doh

They can't imagine a world without a deity, so they assume anyone who doesn't believe must have something (morally) wrong with them.
 

zyzygy

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Are there any theists here who believe religious skeptics ( agnostics,atheists ) are inherently less moral than theists simply because they question and/or reject all God claims. If YES, on what basis do theists give themselves the higher moral ground ?

Morals do not depend on religion.
 

zyzygy

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The responses to this thread should be entertaining.

I once told a young Christian women that I was an Atheist, and she asked me why I worshiped Satan...:doh

They can't imagine a world without a deity, so they assume anyone who doesn't believe must have something (morally) wrong with them.

Their assumption is wrong.
 

Good4Nothin

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Morality and religion are not related. That is just another modern misconception.
 

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Morality and religion are not related. That is just another modern misconception.

Modern????? Have you not read the bible, or just do not realise how old it is?

Religion is basically nothing more than a prescription for morality.
 

zyzygy

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Modern????? Have you not read the bible, or just do not realise how old it is?

Religion is basically nothing more than a prescription for morality.

One can be moral without that prescription.
 

soylentgreen

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One can be moral without that prescription.

I agree. One does not need a religion to be moral or to have moral limitations. However to have a religion is to proscribe to a basis of morality. My response to that poster was to point out that morality and religion are not only related they are dependent on each other.
 

Elvira

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Are there any theists here who believe religious skeptics ( agnostics,atheists ) are inherently less moral than theists simply because they question and/or reject all God claims. If YES, on what basis do theists give themselves the higher moral ground ?

Considering this statistic and the corrupt world we live in, I would say no...

84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian. “Worldwide, more than eight-in-ten people identify with a religious group,” says a new comprehensive demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories conducted by the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life.Dec 23, 2012

https://www.washingtontimes.com/blo...cent-world-population-has-faith-third-are-ch/
 

Good4Nothin

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Modern????? Have you not read the bible, or just do not realise how old it is?

Religion is basically nothing more than a prescription for morality.

The bible is not just about religion. It includes many kinds of documents. Some of it is legal, some is historical, some is mystical.

Just because there is both morality and religion in "the" bible doesn't mean they are the same thing.

And there are and have been many more religions than what you find in "the" bible.
 

RAMOSS

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About 1.1 Billion Catholics according to this study. That is a LOT of trinitarians, E. !!!

The vast number of Protestants , such as the Baptists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans are trintarians too.
 

Logician Man

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The vast number of Protestants , such as the Baptists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans are trintarians too.

yeah..I was first a Southern Baptist, then Southern Methodist, then Lutheran. Even managed to get booted from my own confirmation for refusing to give 'rubber stamped' catechism responses to the church elders and pastor. Mom just about fell out of her chair! :)
 

soylentgreen

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The bible is not just about religion. It includes many kinds of documents. Some of it is legal, some is historical, some is mystical.

Just because there is both morality and religion in "the" bible doesn't mean they are the same thing.

And there are and have been many more religions than what you find in "the" bible.

No, the bible contains nothing of the sort. It is nothing more than a book of fiction all of it is mystical. However it is also a book that theists will interpret and then demand that we follow by those interpretations. Regardless of the fact that it is nothing more than a badly written book of fiction.

And yes it does mean they are the same thing. The christian religion is nothing more than an attempt to control people through the use of moral junctions.

And that there are other religions does not change anything. Religion is all about control by proclaiming religion to be a moral guidance.
 

Conaeolos

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Are there any theists here who believe religious skeptics ( agnostics,atheists ) are inherently less moral than theists simply because they question and/or reject all God claims. If YES, on what basis do theists give themselves the higher moral ground ?
Kind of, although I'd be open to being proven wrong that's only been my conclusion thus far.

First, I would agree one does not need to be religious to be moral or to have moral limitations.

Second, to use Elvira source let suppose 20% of the world's population are religious skeptics. I would still think for the most part that much of that 20% is more moral than let say 90% of the remaining 80%.

Ideologies, of which religions are no exception, often have dangerous flaws especially when applied with zeal. Since, atheists or agonistic are for the most part those having rejected their assessment of at least supernatual ideologies - choosing rather to focus on other things - I would certainly see that as an example of a courageous moral step. Especially since on the subjective level, I think the emotional reasons for that rejection is grounded in moral reasoning.

The moral limitations of religious skepticism in my opinion is in not committing oneself to the abstraction of there being a Highest Moral truth. I would note though, I see predominate feelings acting like lens more than cognition to be at the root of peoples moral foundations. As such, one lens is how I would measure their morality level with moral behavoir merely a symptom we could test. That obviously could be challanged, as could my own personal ranking of them.

Now, to the credit of religious skeptics. Religious ideologies are inclined to taint absolute moral truth and in this way cause one to loose footing even to the point of acting in Satanic or Luciferic ways. Rejecting that or even just the general smaller moral failing that result,seems to cause reason and evidence to fill the gap, which certainly aliven one to guarding against or elevating from ideological possession. This humility is morally essential.

The problem for atheists in my view is that in their elimination of highest moral truth abstraction, it degenerates unknown absolutism into relativism which degrades the tools of scepticism, reason and evidence by removing the context of humility. It seem to me, this leap of faith into nothingness, total moral freedom, creates a predominate feelings of pride that blocks moral develop past a certian level.

Agnostics avoid that trap but get stuck in another in that the highest moral truth must come via being as morally objective as possible. Without any leap of faith, without trusting the subjective judgement - one is forever applying a lens of judgement, always dividing moral right from wrong, acting emotional toward that outcome. The highest moral truth must see our world as perfect(as diffcult an idea as that is to accept), this truth means to be a perfectly moral being one must be willing to embrace faith despite its many dangers. Only in subjective freedom can one be a truly loving being. And more to your question, a perfectly moral being in my view requires being a truly loving being. Something I known I for one fall shot on, but hope to embrace with time.
 

Good4Nothin

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No, the bible contains nothing of the sort. It is nothing more than a book of fiction all of it is mystical. However it is also a book that theists will interpret and then demand that we follow by those interpretations. Regardless of the fact that it is nothing more than a badly written book of fiction.

And yes it does mean they are the same thing. The christian religion is nothing more than an attempt to control people through the use of moral junctions.

And that there are other religions does not change anything. Religion is all about control by proclaiming religion to be a moral guidance.

In your uninformed opinion.
 

zyzygy

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Same to you and many more. It feels like I'm back on the playground.

Do you have only childish insults or do you have something to add to the thread? Is the Bible fiction?
 

Good4Nothin

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Do you have only childish insults or do you have something to add to the thread? Is the Bible fiction?

Can't imagine why you are asking me. I am not someone who considers the bible a source of truth.

We can't know exactly how much of the bible is true vs not quite true vs completely false. It includes documents that were obviously important to that particular culture, such as the laws. The history was probably based on facts at least partly.

We can't go back then and fact check. We can't know if the supernatural events really happened. But the rulers and the wars that are described are probably somehow related to real people and events. It is not something I have ever been obsessed with, but I'm sure plenty of others have been, and I'm sure there is a ton of speculation you could read if you care.
 
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