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The world's most succinct argument against minimum wage laws

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That's it. As you can see, making low paying jobs illegal only hurts those with low skills. It does not help them in any way.


This is a follow-up to last month's attempt where I tried, apparently in vain, to show how minimum wage laws hurt those at the bottom of the economic ladder:


Only 'concise argument' is not backed by empirical evidence. In every developed country where minimum wages have increased, so has the economy improved and no, thousands of businesses did not go under, laying everyone off. Moreover low paying jobs did not become "illegal" as the silly attempt at a graph foolishly frames them; they became better paid jobs.
 
Yes, and that tells us that the damage the current minimum wage law is doing is small. As it goes up, more and more jobs become illegal.



The point is only to show the general principle that increasing the minimum wage decreases the number of jobs. Do you disagree with that claim?
I don't know if it is true now but a couple decades ago-the main drivers for minimum wage increases were the unions on public sector (Davis Bacon etc) jobs because many of those contracts were based on the minimum wage such as paying apprentice members 2X minimum wage journeyman members 2.5-3X minimum wage and the most skilled members 3.5-4 x minimum wage
 
How is it different in a way that matters. The amount of human inputs required for each machine is not relevant to his point.
Backhoes need one person to drive each one, and a million robots can be “driven” by one guy.
 
No human should work for peanuts. Your argument is that asshole employers get to set wages.
who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?
 
who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?

The government, to a point.

And it does already to a point. Unless you're arguing there is no minimum wage as it is.

Why? Because if employers and 'the market' (otherwise known as 'employers') get to fleece the workers then the taxpayer - including 'employers' and 'the market' - end up footing the bill in welfare, healthcare, prisons and other externalities that arise from being a cheap bastard.
 
who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?
Actually it works the other way around, the employee works for how much they can get. If its not enough they seek work somewhere else. If an employer get the reputation that they rip off the employee's then the worth of the service/product may slide with consumers loosing confidence. Then its all down hill form there as employees have no respect for their employer anymore, and their work starts to show it. If you make less than what you feel that you are worth you will probably not try has hard as you would have.
 
All changes to the federal minimum wage since about 1980 have been fairly small. It looks like they were mostly adjusting for several year's worth of inflation that had already happened. So it makes sense why they wouldn't have a huge impact on inflation or unemployment so far.

This proposed change is different because it involves more than doubling the minimum wage and basically trying to change the whole meaning from basically the floor for the most basic entry-level unskilled jobs that are already only 2-3 percent of all jobs, mostly part-time and often held by teenagers or people in their early twenties only for a few years, not a permanent career, to now it's supposed to all of a sudden be more of a living wage.

It is uncharted territory on a national scale so I wouldn't have any confidence in it not resulting in increased unemployment, inflation, and small business closures even if it is gradually increased over five years. I would need to see it to believe it.

If the minimum wage can pull people out of poverty then why don't people making less than $14-15/hr that really think this will help just move to one of the cities or states that already have higher minimum wages or are planning on it? I suspect it would be a wash at best and likely only increase their level of poverty due to the higher cost of living in most cases.
The experiment has already yielded results in cities that have adopted a $15 min wage. The effect on unemployment or inflation is limited. These tend to be expensive cities that could afford that drastic a change quickly but a gradual move to that could could be handled elsewhere.

Most poor people cant just pick up and move. They have family they depend on and moving is expensive
 
So how do you explain impoverished lottery winners going broke? They certainly had lots of money when they won. And how do you explain people who rise up out of poverty without someone giving them money? And just how do you define "good pay"? Or "hard days work" for that matter? "Good pay" and "hard days work" are as individual as DNA - I'm sure a Kardashian type would laugh at the thought of doing anything for even $30 an hour where someone else would be thrilled to make that. Same with work - two people working side by side doing the same job. One has the attitude that this is a piece of cake and the other is stretched to their capacity to keep up. We should have learned by now that throwing money at it won't change it.
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better life
 
Actually it works the other way around, the employee works for how much they can get. If its not enough they seek work somewhere else. If an employer get the reputation that they rip off the employee's then the worth of the service/product may slide with consumers loosing confidence. Then its all down hill form there as employees have no respect for their employer anymore, and their work starts to show it. If you make less than what you feel that you are worth you will probably not try has hard as you would have.
that really doesn't dispute what I said. Wages are nothing more than the cost an employer must pay to get the quality and quantity of the commodity known as labor. If the wages are not sufficient, then the employer won't get enough of what it needs. If it pays too much, it will be at a competitive disadvantage compared to direct competitors.
 
I don't know if it is true now but a couple decades ago-the main drivers for minimum wage increases were the unions on public sector (Davis Bacon etc) jobs because many of those contracts were based on the minimum wage such as paying apprentice members 2X minimum wage journeyman members 2.5-3X minimum wage and the most skilled members 3.5-4 x minimum wage

This is an important point that I think many are overlooking and one reason why I think $15/hour would definitely result in significantly higher prices and fewer available jobs. It's not just the union pay scales, many workers already making $10-20/hour or more would most likely need a raise proportionally higher than $15/hour or else there would be no point in them continuing to do more difficult and/or skilled labor than the burger flippers, retail clerks at Wal-Mart, etc.

For one thing the U.S. is 2nd in the world in terms of manufacturing after China. Well if a factory in America can currently produce a competitive product that sells for $100 and now they need to increase the price to $150 to continue running simply due to the increased labor costs what happens then? Whether much higher prices, even more jobs moving overseas than already have, or more likely a combination of both it doesn't look good for America overall.
 
The experiment has already yielded results in cities that have adopted a $15 min wage. The effect on unemployment or inflation is limited. These tend to be expensive cities that could afford that drastic a change quickly but a gradual move to that could could be handled elsewhere.

Most poor people cant just pick up and move. They have family they depend on and moving is expensive

Maybe so, but that's just isolated cities and states and not even close to what the overall nationwide impact could be. Even if true it doesn't mean that diners, stores, etc. in small towns in Nebraska, Iowa, etc. will remain open or that the people that live there won't miss them if they close permanently. So far I mostly see places that have significantly increased the minimum wage are typically relatively expensive places to live and I don't see any shining examples of high minimum wages corresponding to reasonable prices.
 
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better life

If money was the answer there would be no exceptions to the rule.

So you get to toss crumbs in the form of minimum wage at people and tell them they are happy now because they are living "a better life"? How noble.
 
Dear dawg almighty in the clouds, the American way of greedy capitalism is so disgusting!

However, with a discussion such as this one, even though it's mostly spamming and trolling, it does serve the purpose of delineating the big problem.
Americans' quality of life has sunken to lows that are becoming reminiscent of third world status, yet the religious right still hold strong to their phony ideals of the need for the peasants to just work harder.
 
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better life


Of course there are denier websites too that say this number isn't real.

But it falls right in step with weight loss and the people who aren't able to keep off the weight - depending on the study you read it is 60-96%.

Mindset - mindset - mindset.
 
Yes, and that tells us that the damage the current minimum wage law is doing is small. As it goes up, more and more jobs become illegal.

The point is only to show the general principle that increasing the minimum wage decreases the number of jobs. Do you disagree with that claim?
If the minimum wage goes up, it will have the effect of an upward pressure on wages, on an Institutional basis. Capitalists will still be seeking a profit. That means simply passing on some costs to their consumers, who will be making more money and thus able to create more demand and generate more tax revenue.

I disagree that jobs will be decreased in the long run. The decrease in jobs may only happen in the short run since higher paid labor creates more demand and generates more tax revenue. The multiplier will have its effect.
 
Dear dawg almighty in the clouds, the American way of greedy capitalism is so disgusting!

However, with a discussion such as this one, even though it's mostly spamming and trolling, it does serve the purpose of delineating the big problem.
Americans' quality of life has sunken to lows that are becoming reminiscent of third world status, yet the religious right still hold strong to their phony ideals of the need for the peasants to just work harder.

What are you talking about? Religion has always been the caretakers of the "peasants" as you so crudely call them with such disdain and derision. However, that has been usurped by government - so much for that separation of Church and State thing - eh?
 
If the minimum wage goes up, it will have the effect of an upward pressure on wages, on an Institutional basis. Capitalists will still be seeking a profit. That means simply passing on some costs to their consumers, who will be making more money and thus able to create more demand and generate more tax revenue.

I disagree that jobs will be decreased in the long run. The decrease in jobs may only happen in the short run since higher paid labor creates more demand and generates more tax revenue. The multiplier will have its effect.
The thing is Daniel, American employers will react to higher wages as much as they possibly can and eliminate jobs for the mere satisfaction in doing it.
It's the American way of greedy capitalism and their ideology must be upheld or they stand a chance of America becoming the same as the rest of the world's successful democracies. .

But that's not to suggest that a decent minimum wage shouldn't be forced on employers! It's at least an attempt to break free of the system on behalf of the working class.
 
What are you talking about? Religion has always been the caretakers of the "peasants" as you so crudely call them with such disdain and derision. However, that has been usurped by government - so much for that separation of Church and State thing - eh?
I explained what I'm talking about in my next comment.
On religion, briefly it's one of America's biggest holdbacks from allowing the American way of greed to be broken.

Religious discussions should be limited to the appropriate section. The need to blame religion and the religius right can serve as initiating a discussion there.
 

Of course there are denier websites too that say this number isn't real.

But it falls right in step with weight loss and the people who aren't able to keep off the weight - depending on the study you read it is 60-96%.

Mindset - mindset - mindset.
Not relevant. Min wage pulls people out of poverty because they WORK for their money.....it is not given to them
 
If money was the answer there would be no exceptions to the rule.

So you get to toss crumbs in the form of minimum wage at people and tell them they are happy now because they are living "a better life"? How noble.
What do you suggest to give working people a better life? I certainly don't think min wage increases are the ONLY thing we can do
 
Maybe so, but that's just isolated cities and states and not even close to what the overall nationwide impact could be. Even if true it doesn't mean that diners, stores, etc. in small towns in Nebraska, Iowa, etc. will remain open or that the people that live there won't miss them if they close permanently. So far I mostly see places that have significantly increased the minimum wage are typically relatively expensive places to live and I don't see any shining examples of high minimum wages corresponding to reasonable prices.
People will still want to eat out. Gradual increases in min wage can be easily absorbed
 
I explained what I'm talking about in my next comment.
On religion, briefly it's one of America's biggest holdbacks from allowing the American way of greed to be broken.

Religious discussions should be limited to the appropriate section. The need to blame religion and the religius right can serve as initiating a discussion there.

Yes, I forgot that the belief here is nothing is connected to anything else and all is free standing and independent.
 
The machine isn't doing the job. The operator of the machine is doing the job, in the same way the operator of a backhoe digs a hole.
Machines do the work of multiple people, do work that people can't do, can't do quickly, can't do accurately, etc, etc. Even if there are operators.

That has increased productivity. The owner class has kept that surplus. It's going to get worse.

Your right-libertarian beliefs are almost always going to be wrong.
 
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