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Not the same as a backhoe operator at all.The machine isn't doing the job. The operator of the machine is doing the job, in the same way the operator of a backhoe digs a hole.
Not the same as a backhoe operator at all.The machine isn't doing the job. The operator of the machine is doing the job, in the same way the operator of a backhoe digs a hole.
How is it different in a way that matters. The amount of human inputs required for each machine is not relevant to his point.Not the same as a backhoe operator at all.
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That's it. As you can see, making low paying jobs illegal only hurts those with low skills. It does not help them in any way.
This is a follow-up to last month's attempt where I tried, apparently in vain, to show how minimum wage laws hurt those at the bottom of the economic ladder:
The concise argument against minimum wage laws
The claim from the left is that imposing a minimum wage law helps people at the bottom of the economic ladder. Those of us on the right say it does the opposite - it harms people on the bottom. Here's the short version why: Suppose you wanted to help people who own older, low-value cars by...debatepolitics.com
I don't know if it is true now but a couple decades ago-the main drivers for minimum wage increases were the unions on public sector (Davis Bacon etc) jobs because many of those contracts were based on the minimum wage such as paying apprentice members 2X minimum wage journeyman members 2.5-3X minimum wage and the most skilled members 3.5-4 x minimum wageYes, and that tells us that the damage the current minimum wage law is doing is small. As it goes up, more and more jobs become illegal.
The point is only to show the general principle that increasing the minimum wage decreases the number of jobs. Do you disagree with that claim?
Backhoes need one person to drive each one, and a million robots can be “driven” by one guy.How is it different in a way that matters. The amount of human inputs required for each machine is not relevant to his point.
who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?No human should work for peanuts. Your argument is that asshole employers get to set wages.
who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?
Actually it works the other way around, the employee works for how much they can get. If its not enough they seek work somewhere else. If an employer get the reputation that they rip off the employee's then the worth of the service/product may slide with consumers loosing confidence. Then its all down hill form there as employees have no respect for their employer anymore, and their work starts to show it. If you make less than what you feel that you are worth you will probably not try has hard as you would have.who else should set the wages but the employer and the market?
The experiment has already yielded results in cities that have adopted a $15 min wage. The effect on unemployment or inflation is limited. These tend to be expensive cities that could afford that drastic a change quickly but a gradual move to that could could be handled elsewhere.All changes to the federal minimum wage since about 1980 have been fairly small. It looks like they were mostly adjusting for several year's worth of inflation that had already happened. So it makes sense why they wouldn't have a huge impact on inflation or unemployment so far.
This proposed change is different because it involves more than doubling the minimum wage and basically trying to change the whole meaning from basically the floor for the most basic entry-level unskilled jobs that are already only 2-3 percent of all jobs, mostly part-time and often held by teenagers or people in their early twenties only for a few years, not a permanent career, to now it's supposed to all of a sudden be more of a living wage.
It is uncharted territory on a national scale so I wouldn't have any confidence in it not resulting in increased unemployment, inflation, and small business closures even if it is gradually increased over five years. I would need to see it to believe it.
If the minimum wage can pull people out of poverty then why don't people making less than $14-15/hr that really think this will help just move to one of the cities or states that already have higher minimum wages or are planning on it? I suspect it would be a wash at best and likely only increase their level of poverty due to the higher cost of living in most cases.
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better lifeSo how do you explain impoverished lottery winners going broke? They certainly had lots of money when they won. And how do you explain people who rise up out of poverty without someone giving them money? And just how do you define "good pay"? Or "hard days work" for that matter? "Good pay" and "hard days work" are as individual as DNA - I'm sure a Kardashian type would laugh at the thought of doing anything for even $30 an hour where someone else would be thrilled to make that. Same with work - two people working side by side doing the same job. One has the attitude that this is a piece of cake and the other is stretched to their capacity to keep up. We should have learned by now that throwing money at it won't change it.
that really doesn't dispute what I said. Wages are nothing more than the cost an employer must pay to get the quality and quantity of the commodity known as labor. If the wages are not sufficient, then the employer won't get enough of what it needs. If it pays too much, it will be at a competitive disadvantage compared to direct competitors.Actually it works the other way around, the employee works for how much they can get. If its not enough they seek work somewhere else. If an employer get the reputation that they rip off the employee's then the worth of the service/product may slide with consumers loosing confidence. Then its all down hill form there as employees have no respect for their employer anymore, and their work starts to show it. If you make less than what you feel that you are worth you will probably not try has hard as you would have.
I don't know if it is true now but a couple decades ago-the main drivers for minimum wage increases were the unions on public sector (Davis Bacon etc) jobs because many of those contracts were based on the minimum wage such as paying apprentice members 2X minimum wage journeyman members 2.5-3X minimum wage and the most skilled members 3.5-4 x minimum wage
The experiment has already yielded results in cities that have adopted a $15 min wage. The effect on unemployment or inflation is limited. These tend to be expensive cities that could afford that drastic a change quickly but a gradual move to that could could be handled elsewhere.
Most poor people cant just pick up and move. They have family they depend on and moving is expensive
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better life
You speak of the exception rather than the norm. Most lottery winners do not end up bankrupt. The fact is that min wage does help people to live a better life
If the minimum wage goes up, it will have the effect of an upward pressure on wages, on an Institutional basis. Capitalists will still be seeking a profit. That means simply passing on some costs to their consumers, who will be making more money and thus able to create more demand and generate more tax revenue.Yes, and that tells us that the damage the current minimum wage law is doing is small. As it goes up, more and more jobs become illegal.
The point is only to show the general principle that increasing the minimum wage decreases the number of jobs. Do you disagree with that claim?
Dear dawg almighty in the clouds, the American way of greedy capitalism is so disgusting!
However, with a discussion such as this one, even though it's mostly spamming and trolling, it does serve the purpose of delineating the big problem.
Americans' quality of life has sunken to lows that are becoming reminiscent of third world status, yet the religious right still hold strong to their phony ideals of the need for the peasants to just work harder.
The thing is Daniel, American employers will react to higher wages as much as they possibly can and eliminate jobs for the mere satisfaction in doing it.If the minimum wage goes up, it will have the effect of an upward pressure on wages, on an Institutional basis. Capitalists will still be seeking a profit. That means simply passing on some costs to their consumers, who will be making more money and thus able to create more demand and generate more tax revenue.
I disagree that jobs will be decreased in the long run. The decrease in jobs may only happen in the short run since higher paid labor creates more demand and generates more tax revenue. The multiplier will have its effect.
I explained what I'm talking about in my next comment.What are you talking about? Religion has always been the caretakers of the "peasants" as you so crudely call them with such disdain and derision. However, that has been usurped by government - so much for that separation of Church and State thing - eh?
Not relevant. Min wage pulls people out of poverty because they WORK for their money.....it is not given to themWhy do 70 percent of lottery winners end up bankrupt?
In fact, about 70 percent of people who win a lottery or get a big windfall actually end up broke within three to four years, according to the National Endowment for Financial Education.www.cleveland.com
Of course there are denier websites too that say this number isn't real.
But it falls right in step with weight loss and the people who aren't able to keep off the weight - depending on the study you read it is 60-96%.
Mindset - mindset - mindset.
What do you suggest to give working people a better life? I certainly don't think min wage increases are the ONLY thing we can doIf money was the answer there would be no exceptions to the rule.
So you get to toss crumbs in the form of minimum wage at people and tell them they are happy now because they are living "a better life"? How noble.
People will still want to eat out. Gradual increases in min wage can be easily absorbedMaybe so, but that's just isolated cities and states and not even close to what the overall nationwide impact could be. Even if true it doesn't mean that diners, stores, etc. in small towns in Nebraska, Iowa, etc. will remain open or that the people that live there won't miss them if they close permanently. So far I mostly see places that have significantly increased the minimum wage are typically relatively expensive places to live and I don't see any shining examples of high minimum wages corresponding to reasonable prices.
I explained what I'm talking about in my next comment.
On religion, briefly it's one of America's biggest holdbacks from allowing the American way of greed to be broken.
Religious discussions should be limited to the appropriate section. The need to blame religion and the religius right can serve as initiating a discussion there.
Machines do the work of multiple people, do work that people can't do, can't do quickly, can't do accurately, etc, etc. Even if there are operators.The machine isn't doing the job. The operator of the machine is doing the job, in the same way the operator of a backhoe digs a hole.