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The world upside down

Do you agree with the ideas addressed in this thread?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
stan1990 said:
I never vote in the election, and I don't like politicians. I won't contribute to a false process designed to deceive people.
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Then you will be handed your decision with no say in the matter. That makes a lot of sense. Complaining changes nothing, vote.
 
bongsaway said:
Then you will be handed your decision with no say in the matter. That makes a lot of sense. Complaining changes nothing, vote.
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People who vote didn't change anything. Politicians will act based on their own interest and not their voters.
 
WillyPete said:
I'd say instead that Capitalism rewards rapacious behavior. I don't think that's a mark of dumbness, but it lends itself to short term thinking, and a "**** you, I got mine" attitude that is not good at long term planning. That might as well be the US's motto these days.

The problem of course is that identifying this problem is the easy part. What alternative to Capitalism are you proposing? What few that are viable don't react well to real life conditions.

My own view has become that Capitalism is our nature state, or that it at least maps best to the way we think naturally. All other forms economic theories are disrupted by this. As an example, Communism became immediately corrupted and just rewarded the greatest thieves, and never even approached anything like it's core principles in real life. I think this is because that sort of "work for the greater good" thinking may as well be Martian. We're simply not wired to cooperate at that level.

We can get there individually, but overall any minority that is genuine about doing good selflessly will be immediately overrun by the nastiest, most shameless players amongst us, many superficially claiming to be working towards the same goals.

I don't know how to fix that. We can "teach our children to be better" but they'll just get steamrolled themselves, probably before they're out of grade school.
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Well, at the root of the two economic policies, Capitalism functions by rewarding work, and Socialism functions by compelling work.
 
jmotivator said:
Well, at the root of the two economic policies, Capitalism functions by rewarding work, and Socialism functions by compelling work.
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My core point is that all economies are functionally Capitalism. For the less privileged, work is no less compulsory in the U.S. than in a Stalinist gulag.

The pay and benefits are generally better, sure, but in the end you are working to reward the privileged. The systems are more alike than they are different.

Capitalism is a touch more honest about this, and it functions better for it, but the hamburger doesn't care how shiny the meat-grinder is.
 
The world is only upside down for Australians
 
WillyPete said:
My core point is that all economies are functionally Capitalism. For the less privileged, work is no less compulsory in the U.S. than in a Stalinist gulag.

The pay and benefits are generally better, sure, but in the end you are working to reward the privileged. The systems are more alike than they are different.

Capitalism is a touch more honest about this, and it functions better for it, but the hamburger doesn't care how shiny the meat-grinder is.
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Well, not really. It is quite a bit different in a Stalinist Gulag. In a capitalist society you are afforded the ability to choose the work you will do for the money you are willing to accept, and change both as you see fit.

The problem with Socialism is it is easier to eat than it is to farm, so in a system where food is distributed centrally, few would choose a harder job over an easier job willingly... so in order to make sure there are enough farmers, people must be compelled to farm while denied added benefit of that hard work.
 
jmotivator said:
Well, not really. It is quite a bit different in a Stalinist Gulag. In a capitalist society you are afforded the ability to choose the work you will do for the money you are willing to accept, and change both as you see fit.

The problem with Socialism is it is easier to eat than it is to farm, so in a system where food is distributed centrally, few would choose a harder job over an easier job willingly... so in order to make sure there are enough farmers, people must be compelled to farm while denied added benefit of that hard work.
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That's all wrapped up under "functions better" for me. I was a bit over the top in the comparison, and I'd never trade, but ultimately I stand by "The systems are more alike than they are different."

If circumstances were different, we'd act just as brutally as others have. We have before, and we likely will again.

To be clear my frustration is not with the U.S. exactly, but with humanity in general. Capitalism is apparently the best we can manage.
 
HonestJoe said:
Your post is a rant about a whole load of problems you perceive in the socio-political system. You said you don’t vote in elections because you consider then “shenanigans”. I was curious whether there is anything positive you actually do to try to improve the situation beyond occasionally moaning about it on internet message boards. :cool:
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What do you suggest I should do?
 
Fledermaus said:
tl:dr fits for your OP.

As to the content. You won't get a lot of people reading if you start writing with an insult.
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I will consider your feedback next thread. Thanks for your comment
 
WillyPete said:
That's all wrapped up under "functions better" for me. I was a bit over the top in the comparison, and I'd never trade, but ultimately I stand by "The systems are more alike than they are different."

If circumstances were different, we'd act just as brutally as others have. We have before, and we likely will again.

To be clear my frustration is not with the U.S. exactly, but with humanity in general. Capitalism is apparently the best we can manage.
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Well yeah, there is a deeper discussion there concerning the underlying assumptions of conservative and progressive ideologies. Thomas Sowell wrote an amazing book on the subject called A CONFLICT OF VISIONS where he explains it as the "Constrained" versus the "Unconstrained" view of humanity. "Constrained" ideologies see human nature as a fixed quality, while "Unconstrained" ideologies assume that human nature can be improved. As such, "Unconstrained" ideologies build social structures that will function someday when man is less flawed while "Constrained" ideologies assume the flaws will not change and plan accordingly.

Or, to borrow an old saying: The problem with capitalism is the number of capitalists and the problem with socialism is the lack of socialists.
 
stan1990 said:
What do you suggest I should do?
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I was asking what you do already (though that would be relevant to the question of what you should do too). Can I take you answer to be “nothing”?

What you could actually do depends on how you believe the situation you talk about could and should be improved. It may be you don’t think they can be improved, but that would make moaning about them somewhat empty. Assuming you think there are things that would make the situation better, there are always going to be ways to work towards that, even if it’s not something you could ever achieve alone. I guess the first step it to take the more positive approach of detailing how you believe things could be better rather than just complaining about how bad they are. That alone could encourage some people to work towards something better.
 
People are much like sheep...they are easily led or misled...
 
HonestJoe said:
I was asking what you do already (though that would be relevant to the question of what you should do too). Can I take you answer to be “nothing”?

What you could actually do depends on how you believe the situation you talk about could and should be improved. It may be you don’t think they can be improved, but that would make moaning about them somewhat empty. Assuming you think there are things that would make the situation better, there are always going to be ways to work towards that, even if it’s not something you could ever achieve alone. I guess the first step it to take the more positive approach of detailing how you believe things could be better rather than just complaining about how bad they are. That alone could encourage some people to work towards something better.
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I do believe that when people stop participating in a false process designed to deceive them, this will send a message to everybody in charge that something is wrong, people are upset.
 
stan1990 said:
I do believe that when people stop participating in a false process designed to deceive them, this will send a message to everybody in charge that something is wrong, people are upset.
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Participation rates are too low for you simply not voting to be noticed. If you want to make your point, you'd need to get off you ass and actually take some positive action. Until you do, you're just part of the problem.
 
HonestJoe said:
Participation rates are too low for you simply not voting to be noticed. If you want to make your point, you'd need to get off you ass and actually take some positive action. Until you do, you're just part of the problem.
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I do disagree with you.
 
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