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The world upside down

Do you agree with the ideas addressed in this thread?


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  • Poll closed .

stan1990

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People are stupid. Americans, British, Swedish, Arab, Muslims or Christians are ignorant and dump. They keep voting election after election for the same fools who hurt them badly: provide free lunch from taxpayers money to wealthy bankers, they repackage the package into sparkling name call it Stimulus. They stole their pension and retirement. They failed to provide them with fundamental rights such as free education and health care. And many other reasons, the list can be very long.

Governments declared war on drugs; however, it turned to a war on people. The war on drugs allows democratic governments to militarize their police to turn it into a paramilitary force to oppress the freedoms and rights of the non-addict citizens. The justice system in the West is so corrupted and disintegrated, an 18 years old teenager can go to jail forever charged with selling controlled substance while unemployed drug dealer with 10 thousand dollar Rolex and multi-million dollar mansion walk by without being questioned about the source of his income.

Capitalism allows the dumbest of the world population to exploit the poorest paying a fraction of the real cost for goods and services. But Capitalism exploitation isn’t restricted to third world countries. Flint is a small peaceful town in the state of Michigan, the United States of America, not in Bangladesh or Burma, that has trouble with its water supply because some bureaucrats decide to save a few dollars on the water delivery system. The real free men said it before: no taxes without representation. Today, Flint residents favorite quotation must be No taxes without services.

Wise people don’t welcome the neoliberalism economists views such as Milton Friedman or columnist such as Mark Steyn. They aren’t calling for small government but no government at all. According to Neoliberals, people are responsible to pay for their education, healthcare, pension, retirement, utilities, and pay more in taxes every year so governments could burden big corporations, helping them save for their own Caribbean retirement.

End
 

Harshaw

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Reading this post be like:

tenor.gif
 

MrWonka

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People are stupid. Americans, British, Swedish, Arab, Muslims or Christians are ignorant and dump.

I generally don't like doing this to people, but when the general thesis of your OP is that everyone but you is Dumb you should probably spell the word dumb correctly.
 

WillyPete

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I'd say instead that Capitalism rewards rapacious behavior. I don't think that's a mark of dumbness, but it lends itself to short term thinking, and a "**** you, I got mine" attitude that is not good at long term planning. That might as well be the US's motto these days.

The problem of course is that identifying this problem is the easy part. What alternative to Capitalism are you proposing? What few that are viable don't react well to real life conditions.

My own view has become that Capitalism is our nature state, or that it at least maps best to the way we think naturally. All other forms economic theories are disrupted by this. As an example, Communism became immediately corrupted and just rewarded the greatest thieves, and never even approached anything like it's core principles in real life. I think this is because that sort of "work for the greater good" thinking may as well be Martian. We're simply not wired to cooperate at that level.

We can get there individually, but overall any minority that is genuine about doing good selflessly will be immediately overrun by the nastiest, most shameless players amongst us, many superficially claiming to be working towards the same goals.

I don't know how to fix that. We can "teach our children to be better" but they'll just get steamrolled themselves, probably before they're out of grade school.
 

PirateMk1

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I generally don't like doing this to people, but when the general thesis of your OP is that everyone but you is Dumb you should probably spell the word dumb correctly.

Pinocchio your nose is growing. :cool: Come on, admit the truth, you do love it. You cant resist when people practically paste a kick me sign right on their ass. I know I love it when they do. :devil: It's simply irresistible. Robert Palmer said that once or twice.
 

stan1990

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I generally don't like doing this to people, but when the general thesis of your OP is that everyone but you is Dumb you should probably spell the word dumb correctly.

I never vote in the election, and I don't like politicians. I won't contribute to a false process designed to deceive people.
 

stan1990

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I generally don't like doing this to people, but when the general thesis of your OP is that everyone but you is Dumb you should probably spell the word dumb correctly.

Dumb is different word from Dump
 

stan1990

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I'd say instead that Capitalism rewards rapacious behavior. I don't think that's a mark of dumbness, but it lends itself to short term thinking, and a "**** you, I got mine" attitude that is not good at long term planning. That might as well be the US's motto these days.

The problem of course is that identifying this problem is the easy part. What alternative to Capitalism are you proposing? What few that are viable don't react well to real life conditions.

My own view has become that Capitalism is our nature state, or that it at least maps best to the way we think naturally. All other forms economic theories are disrupted by this. As an example, Communism became immediately corrupted and just rewarded the greatest thieves, and never even approached anything like it's core principles in real life. I think this is because that sort of "work for the greater good" thinking may as well be Martian. We're simply not wired to cooperate at that level.

We can get there individually, but overall any minority that is genuine about doing good selflessly will be immediately overrun by the nastiest, most shameless players amongst us, many superficially claiming to be working towards the same goals.

I don't know how to fix that. We can "teach our children to be better" but they'll just get steamrolled themselves, probably before they're out of grade school.

Thanks for your informative comment. I agree with you on some points such as "Capitalism rewards rapacious behaviour," and "The problem, of course, is that identifying this problem is the easy part." However, I disagree with you on "Capitalism is our natural state." unless you mean Adam Smith Capitalism, you are right. However, our current system got nothing to do with Capitalism, it is a system of corporatism and monopolies.
 

WillyPete

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Thanks for your informative comment. I agree with you on some points such as "Capitalism rewards rapacious behaviour," and "The problem, of course, is that identifying this problem is the easy part." However, I disagree with you on "Capitalism is our natural state." unless you mean Adam Smith Capitalism, you are right. However, our current system got nothing to do with Capitalism, it is a system of corporatism and monopolies.

I'd suggest corporatism and monopolies, and even full blown oligarchy, are all different stages/components of Capitalism, and to try to clarify my main point, they occur to some extent in all societies, no matter what form of economy/government is technically in place, because it is human nature. Call it instinctive or herd mentality, we do these things under all economic systems, it's just some systems are better adapted to to it, are at less at odds with our instinctive behavior, and that's why they perform better.
 

What if...?

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I'd say instead that Capitalism rewards rapacious behavior. I don't think that's a mark of dumbness, but it lends itself to short term thinking, and a "**** you, I got mine" attitude that is not good at long term planning. That might as well be the US's motto these days.

The problem of course is that identifying this problem is the easy part. What alternative to Capitalism are you proposing? What few that are viable don't react well to real life conditions.

My own view has become that Capitalism is our nature state, or that it at least maps best to the way we think naturally. All other forms economic theories are disrupted by this. As an example, Communism became immediately corrupted and just rewarded the greatest thieves, and never even approached anything like it's core principles in real life. I think this is because that sort of "work for the greater good" thinking may as well be Martian. We're simply not wired to cooperate at that level.

We can get there individually, but overall any minority that is genuine about doing good selflessly will be immediately overrun by the nastiest, most shameless players amongst us, many superficially claiming to be working towards the same goals.

I don't know how to fix that. We can "teach our children to be better" but they'll just get steamrolled themselves, probably before they're out of grade school.

This is my theory.

It isn't the economic system in question.

It is the human drive for status that is the problem.

In social species, status confers better access to resources. The member of any species with the best access to resources is the most likely to reproduce. So status seeking behaviors are rewarded. These rewards are addictive. Its how instincts manifest. A cat chases a string because that behavior is pro-survival. It feels good when he does it. So he'll continue to do it.

Now, this was all well and good when we were hunting and gathering. This drive was kept in check by two things, primarily:

Social relationships. Everybody knew everybody, were all related.

Second, the simple fact that at that time we were all apex predators. If Grog decided everybody should cough up a third of the food they came up with to sleep in this valley because his grandfather saw it first they simply told him to shut up.

Then we settled down and started producing our own food. One thing led to another until the food had to be locked up and doled out.

This created the management class, wage labor, professional soldiers/guards and "wealth". And these adaptations "broke" our countering behaviors. We populations went over the 700 number where interpersonal relationships kept their hunger in check. The guards stood between the people and the "managers", enforcing their edicts.

Ever since we settled down we have repeated a pattern where those at the top feed their Jones for wealth and power (status) until their activities make life untenable for the majority and they are forced to stop. Or the whole society collapses under the weight

This applies across economic ideologies. I agree with your soviet assessment. I have never been convinced that that wasn't just a clever use of propaganda to trick the Russians into putting them in charge, never intending to dissolve the "vanguard".

So, I posit that we need to acknowledge these behaviors. That what we see at the top is addictive behavior. That we let them have their way at our peril.

Unfortunately, leader/follower dynamics are also in play. As they are in all social species. As well as modern propaganda/manipulation techniques.

But some good old suspiscion of the motives of our leaders would go a long way.

Or we could just keep doing the same thing expecting a different result, as we have been doing. Blaming our civilization cycle on religion or ideology or economic system instead of the amoral powerheads that are the real reason we can't have nice things for very long.
 

What if...?

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I'd suggest corporatism and monopolies, and even full blown oligarchy, are all different stages/components of Capitalism, and to try to clarify my main point, they occur to some extent in all societies, no matter what form of economy/government is technically in place, because it is human nature. Call it instinctive or herd mentality, we do these things under all economic systems, it's just some systems are better adapted to to it, are at less at odds with our instinctive behavior, and that's why they perform better.

I once read somewhere that one of the reasons capitalism was so widely adopted was that it provided a less destructive outlet for the "urge to empire".

I would suggest that addressing that urge itself would be a better place to start.
 

stan1990

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I'd suggest corporatism and monopolies, and even full blown oligarchy, are all different stages/components of Capitalism, and to try to clarify my main point, they occur to some extent in all societies, no matter what form of economy/government is technically in place, because it is human nature. Call it instinctive or herd mentality, we do these things under all economic systems, it's just some systems are better adapted to to it, are at less at odds with our instinctive behavior, and that's why they perform better.

I agree with you on your comment. However, Capitalism is a theory that comes with either a positive or negative outcome. No theory or believe exists including Socialism or Communism is absolutely good or bad, and this including Capitalism. Corporatism and Monopolies are the immoral side of Capitalism, the side effects.
 

stan1990

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I generally don't like doing this to people, but when the general thesis of your OP is that everyone but you is Dumb you should probably spell the word dumb correctly.

Both Dumb or Dump serve the meaning. And i am not a dump because I don't vote and I don't participate in the political Shenanigans called the election.
 

HonestJoe

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Both Dumb or Dump serve the meaning. And i am not a dump because I don't vote and I don't participate in the political Shenanigans called the election.
Fair enough but what do you do to address the perceived problems you describe in the OP?
 

ttwtt78640

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I never vote in the election, and I don't like politicians. I won't contribute to a false process designed to deceive people.

Hmm... yet you have no problem complaining about the actions of those elected.
 

Fledermaus

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People are stupid. Americans, British, Swedish, Arab, Muslims or Christians are ignorant and dump. They keep voting election after election for the same fools who hurt them badly: provide free lunch from taxpayers money to wealthy bankers, they repackage the package into sparkling name call it Stimulus. They stole their pension and retirement. They failed to provide them with fundamental rights such as free education and health care. And many other reasons, the list can be very long.

Governments declared war on drugs; however, it turned to a war on people. The war on drugs allows democratic governments to militarize their police to turn it into a paramilitary force to oppress the freedoms and rights of the non-addict citizens. The justice system in the West is so corrupted and disintegrated, an 18 years old teenager can go to jail forever charged with selling controlled substance while unemployed drug dealer with 10 thousand dollar Rolex and multi-million dollar mansion walk by without being questioned about the source of his income.

Capitalism allows the dumbest of the world population to exploit the poorest paying a fraction of the real cost for goods and services. But Capitalism exploitation isn’t restricted to third world countries. Flint is a small peaceful town in the state of Michigan, the United States of America, not in Bangladesh or Burma, that has trouble with its water supply because some bureaucrats decide to save a few dollars on the water delivery system. The real free men said it before: no taxes without representation. Today, Flint residents favorite quotation must be No taxes without services.

Wise people don’t welcome the neoliberalism economists views such as Milton Friedman or columnist such as Mark Steyn. They aren’t calling for small government but no government at all. According to Neoliberals, people are responsible to pay for their education, healthcare, pension, retirement, utilities, and pay more in taxes every year so governments could burden big corporations, helping them save for their own Caribbean retirement.

End

Long rambling post...
 

stan1990

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Long rambling post...

The normal reply when someone doesn't like thread posted in the forum. Why you feel shy telling me that you don't agree with my opinions? I won't bite you. And by the way, what is the typical thread in your opinion? How many lines or words or font size?
 

HonestJoe

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can you provide further explanation?
Your post is a rant about a whole load of problems you perceive in the socio-political system. You said you don’t vote in elections because you consider then “shenanigans”. I was curious whether there is anything positive you actually do to try to improve the situation beyond occasionally moaning about it on internet message boards. :cool:
 

Fledermaus

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The normal reply when someone doesn't like thread posted in the forum. Why you feel shy telling me that you don't agree with my opinions? I won't bite you. And by the way, what is the typical thread in your opinion? How many lines or words or font size?

tl:dr fits for your OP.

As to the content. You won't get a lot of people reading if you start writing with an insult.
 
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