The world, united against Russia's naked aggressive war of mass murder against Ukraine. Right?

[Craig234]

Huh. I am surprised at Turkey: NATO must have put some pressure on them.

Where Turkey Stands on the Russia-Ukraine War

Russia’s outsize impact on Turkish interests means Ankara is sticking to a middle ground on the war in Ukraine.

www.cfr.org

I would say that it’s more their self interest than opposition. If they become too dependent on the US, that gives the US a lot of power over them. Russia and China are good alternatives who are not going to exert pressure to be less authoritative or care about civil rights. It’s not so much that they are in opposition to the West, but that they are afraid if the West ever becomes opposed to them (more directly).

Regimes that have power where democracy is a threat, oppose democratic power in the world and look to ally with others against democracy to create an anti-democracy coalition. China is the de facto world leader of such an alliance to come, though they don't want to admit it yet while they get stronger, but it's easy to see 'behind their wall' of language and blocked internet, in their internal propaganda. Children are raised to hate the US, for example.

 

[MamboDervish]

So you ask for evidence but then don't care about evidence in deciding to make an assumption you support - one that appears largely incorrect. My point was about governments rather than people -

Well . . . . it's one or the other. Which is it? Make up your mind.

I'm arguing that more people are opposed to Putin, and I've given my reason why. And by your own data - 93 vs. 82 - 11 more governments are also opposed Putin! So the answer to the headline is "right"! Now, if by using the word "united", you mean everybody - well, the world never has been, nor ever will be, united on any issue. If that's the case, then the question posed by the OP headline is a failed premise to begin with - because it's impossible. But if by "united" you mean most, then yes, the world is "united against Russia's naked aggressive war . . . etc."

If, as you have written, your "point was about governments rather than people", then doesn't your own data answer the question posed in your OP headline?

The world, united against Russia's naked aggressive war of mass murder against Ukraine. Right?​

Yes - RIGHT!

 

[Craig234]

Well . . . . it's one or the other. Which is it? Make up your mind.

I'm arguing that more people are opposed to Putin, and I've given my reason why. And by your own data - 93 vs. 82 - 11 more governments are also opposed Putin! So the answer to the headline is "right"! Now, if by using the word "united", you mean everybody - well, the world never has been, nor ever will be, united on any issue. If that's the case, then the question posed by the OP headline is a failed premise to begin with - because it's impossible. But if by "united" you mean most, then yes, the world is "united against Russia's naked aggressive war . . . etc."

If, as you have written, your "point was about governments rather than people", then doesn't your own data answer the question posed in your OP headline?

The world, united against Russia's naked aggressive war of mass murder against Ukraine. Right?​

Yes - RIGHT!

You're missing my point. If I say, "China and India are countries doing x, but Zimbabwe, Lichtenstein, Honduras and Finland are opposing X', on the one hand that's a 4-2 ratio of countries against x; but somewhere in there it's relevant how much larger the 2 are than the 4; and while 'the people of' China and India' may or may not support doing x, the fact the governments are is usually the essential thing about it.

So it's all those things - the sizes of the countries, the citizens versus governments question, the ways in which they do this or that - but my overall point was that while we 'think' of the situation as 'most of the world with a few outliers are on Ukraine's side against Putin', in fact the governments of a large majority of the world - all of the ten biggest countries besides the US - refused to expel Russia from the human rights panel. That's important.

 

[MamboDervish]

That's important.

If you say so.

 

[Craig234]

If you say so.

Yes, I'd say having the governments of a large majority of the world's people all not supporting the democratic condemnation of Putin's war, in contrast to the idea of a world nearly united against his horrible war, ready to battle democratic values and power, is important. What's more important for the world politically?

 

[MamboDervish]

Yes, I'd say having the governments of a large majority of the world's people all not supporting the democratic condemnation of Putin's war, in contrast to the idea of a world nearly united against his horrible war, ready to battle democratic values and power, is important. What's more important for the world politically?

?? We've already established that "importance" - politically - only exists in countries with self determination.
And as you've pointed out, that score is 93 over 82.

 

[Craig234]

?? We've already established that "importance" - politically - only exists in countries with self determination.
And as you've pointed out, that score is 93 over 82.

I don't know what you think we've established, but I'll repeat, the power of a country is one relevant factor.

"So it's all those things - the sizes of the countries, the citizens versus governments question, the ways in which they do this or that - but my overall point was that while we 'think' of the situation as 'most of the world with a few outliers are on Ukraine's side against Putin', in fact the governments of a large majority of the world - all of the ten biggest countries besides the US - refused to expel Russia from the human rights panel. That's important."

 

[MamboDervish]

I don't know what you think we've established, but I'll repeat, the power of a country is one relevant factor.

"So it's all those things - the sizes of the countries, the citizens versus governments question, the ways in which they do this or that - but my overall point was that while we 'think' of the situation as 'most of the world with a few outliers are on Ukraine's side against Putin', in fact the governments of a large majority of the world - all of the ten biggest countries besides the US - refused to expel Russia from the human rights panel. That's important."

Like I've already said - if you say so -
- but I don't agree.