The wind power hoax

[Deuce]

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Is it bad that my brain instantly identifies what this represents, or good?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Couple of weeks ago I drove down the Columbia river gorge which is known for having the most reliable wind in the US. Well the wind wasn't blowing and the thousands of wind mills littering the hills were not turning. Just a fluke I thought but yesterday I drove back up the gorge and once again those things were barely moving at all. This just shows that the wind power fad is not a reliable source of energy and will never be more than a supplement for fossil fuel and hydro power that incidentally was going great guns on the Columbia wind or not. Good part is that no hawks and eagles were getting sliced and diced those days I drove through though.:lol: I took a pic of the not turning blades but I can't find my damn cord to hook the cam up to my puter. I'll keep looking, it's here somewhere.

ROFLMAO..

... a picture of them not moving...

Ohhh.. gawd... my sides are killing me....



Please don't bother looking for the chord... or further insulting our intelligence...

 

[Deuce]

ROFLMAO..

... a picture of them not moving...

Ohhh.. gawd... my sides are killing me....



Please don't bother looking for the chord... or further insulting our intelligence...

Hey man it is both interesting and hilarious that it was not windy on two separate days. Conversely, if it were windy on both of those days this would have proven that wind power is a magical fix to all the world's problems. Including slow internet.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey man it is both interesting and hilarious that it was not windy on two separate days. Conversely, if it were windy on both of those days this would have proven that wind power is a magical fix to all the world's problems. Including slow internet.

Dude... if you can't understand that a static picture does not represent movement, trying to explain the rest is a non starter.

Were these large mega-watt generators? If so, there is likely another reason they weren't turning. The wind is always blowing 300 feet up, especially in the Columbia Gorge. If I had to guess it has more to do with contracts and other producers on the grid for that region.

Is there a nuclear plant in the region? If so, that producer takes precedent. If demand for electricity does not exceed it's capacity, there is no need for other producers to add to the grid. Every regional grid has make-up capacity that can be brought online in a moments notice to address peak loads, most are small natural gas turbines. These systems can be operated at a range of 50-100% output. Nuclear cannot. It's either balls out production, or none at all.

Still with me? So... I'd rather have wind generated reserve power than natural gas. However, if there is no demand, it would be insanely stupid to let them turn and induce wear and tear when the electricity has nowhere to go. Get it?

 

[sawyerloggingon]

If taxes mean no free market, there are no free markets.

If a tax is meant to make one industry more lucrative than its competition it is not a free market.

 

[Deuce]

If a tax is meant to make one industry more lucrative than its competition it is not a free market.

What about if it's meant to ensure the price of one industry accurately reflects the true price?

Let's say for the sake of argument that excessive CO2 emissions actually do cause changes in climate that have a negative impact on future generations. Economic damage like increased food prices due to decreasing crop yields, so your great grandchildren will pay more for a loaf of bread because of what you and I are doing today. Shouldn't the price we pay at the pump reflect that impact? If it doesn't, aren't fossil fuels just being artificially subsidized by future generations? How is that a free market?

 

[sawyerloggingon]

What about if it's meant to ensure the price of one industry accurately reflects the true price?

Let's say for the sake of argument that excessive CO2 emissions actually do cause changes in climate that have a negative impact on future generations. Economic damage like increased food prices due to decreasing crop yields, so your great grandchildren will pay more for a loaf of bread because of what you and I are doing today. Shouldn't the price we pay at the pump reflect that impact? If it doesn't, aren't fossil fuels just being artificially subsidized by future generations? How is that a free market?

If AGW was proven fact you would have a point but since it is not you don't. Lets not derail the thread with that old argument though OK. The fact is windmill farms would not exist if us taxpayers did not heavily subsidize them, that is what this thread is about.

 

[Deuce]

If AGW was proven fact you would have a point but since it is not you don't. Lets not derail the thread with that old argument though OK. The fact is windmill farms would not exist if us taxpayers did not heavily subsidize them, that is what this thread is about.

Predictable dodge. It must be convenient to just declare the motivations of a carbon tax are sinister, and to be able to just ignore the possibility that it's not.

And if that's what this thread was about, your OP did a really, really bad job of conveying it. :lamo I mean, you literally didn't mention anything about taxpayer subsidies. No, sawyer, this thread was just another random, blanket attack on those silly warmers because you've long since given up on reasonable debate on the science.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Predictable dodge. It must be convenient to just declare the motivations of a carbon tax are sinister, and to be able to just ignore the possibility that it's not.

And if that's what this thread was about, your OP did a really, really bad job of conveying it. :lamo I mean, you literally didn't mention anything about taxpayer subsidies. No, sawyer, this thread was just another random, blanket attack on those silly warmers because you've long since given up on reasonable debate on the science.

Thread is about wind mill farms, deal with it.

 

[notquiteright]

When the first steam engines for ships were being tested they were not very efficient and the ship still spent time under sail. the first automobiles were not very reliable or capable of carrying much too far too fast. the first planes barely made it off the ground.

But governments around the world saw potential, mostly military, and invested in those devices... a sort of subsidy considering few private parties were willing to invest in the development curve unless a government guaranteed a cash flow.

Who knows what a wind turbine will look like in another 20 years- do know without starting now, and 10 years ago the amount of electricity was a nit compared to now, but without the government jump starting wind generated technology few private parties would invest in it, just like hauling the US mail helped many fledgling air services.

But better to sit on the front porch and bitch... sort of like a less well informed Rooney guy... eace

 

[sawyerloggingon]

When the first steam engines for ships were being tested they were not very efficient and the ship still spent time under sail. the first automobiles were not very reliable or capable of carrying much too far too fast. the first planes barely made it off the ground.

But governments around the world saw potential, mostly military, and invested in those devices... a sort of subsidy considering few private parties were willing to invest in the development curve unless a government guaranteed a cash flow.

Who knows what a wind turbine will look like in another 20 years- do know without starting now, and 10 years ago the amount of electricity was a nit compared to now, but without the government jump starting wind generated technology few private parties would invest in it, just like hauling the US mail helped many fledgling air services.

But better to sit on the front porch and bitch... sort of like a less well informed Rooney guy... eace

Your tax dollars at work,:lol:


"Third, the feds will continue to subsidize the wind industry through a series of tax credits, subsidies and loan guarantees. Reason magazine columnist and Mercatus Center Economist Veronique de Rugy found, “Between fiscal years 2007 and 2010, annual wind subsidies grew from $476 million to nearly $5 billion.”


Angry Birds? No, But Obama's Wind Energy Subsidies Have Them Very Frightened - Forbes

 

[Democrat152]

Your not looking at the big picture. Your trying to disprove renewable energy just because the wind was not blowing. But I ask you, Was the sun Shining? Was the Columbia River moving? Your right in saying Wind Power alone cant supply our needs, but when you add Solar Power to it, and Hydropower and Geothermal to fill in the gaps, we can easily supply our energy needs. The only thing holding us back is our aging electricity grid.

 

[Democrat152]

At work they are, that's 5 Billion dollars invested in our future. In my opinion, that money is well spent. As for the birds....Since when have fossil fuel supporters given a crap about animals? I imagine the birds are much more concerned about the pollution in our atmosphere than another object they have to avoid.

 

[notquiteright]

Your tax dollars at work,:lol:


"Third, the feds will continue to subsidize the wind industry through a series of tax credits, subsidies and loan guarantees. Reason magazine columnist and Mercatus Center Economist Veronique de Rugy found, “Between fiscal years 2007 and 2010, annual wind subsidies grew from $476 million to nearly $5 billion.”


Angry Birds? No, But Obama's Wind Energy Subsidies Have Them Very Frightened - Forbes

yes Sir! everything from the interwebz to Tang came from Gubmint tax breaks, subsidies and out right sponsorship of production! Given how some want plenty of gas for their gas guzzling 'real' trucks I'd think using wind rather than fossil fuels would be applauded. Given the tremendous advances in wing generated power and how 2/3rds of this Great Republic is well suited for wind power exploitation, and wind related jobs, and of course land owner rent payments are real job creators rather than say the tax breaks Walmart gets to employ part-time, temp workers... I say bring 'em on!

Better use of our tax money than say invading other countries where we spend a trillion or so duntcha think???

 

[Deuce]

Thread is about wind mill farms, deal with it.

You were happy to discuss carbon taxes until you got a question you couldn't answer. :lamo

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Your not looking at the big picture. Your trying to disprove renewable energy just because the wind was not blowing. But I ask you, Was the sun Shining? Was the Columbia River moving? Your right in saying Wind Power alone cant supply our needs, but when you add Solar Power to it, and Hydropower and Geothermal to fill in the gaps, we can easily supply our energy needs. The only thing holding us back is our aging electricity grid.

You are missing or ignoring the point here. Wind and solar can never replace traditional power and no dams will be removed, no fossil fuel power plants will shut down because of these so called green energy sources. Not only are they wildly unreliable but they can not show a profit without huge gov subsidies.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

At work they are, that's 5 Billion dollars invested in our future. In my opinion, that money is well spent. As for the birds....Since when have fossil fuel supporters given a crap about animals? I imagine the birds are much more concerned about the pollution in our atmosphere than another object they have to avoid.

It's 5 billion down the toilet. I could see subsidizing wind in the millions range to encourage innovation but 5 billion is way beyond that, it is about propping up a failing industry.

 

[Democrat152]

It's 5 billion down the toilet. I could see subsidizing wind in the millions range to encourage innovation but 5 billion is way beyond that, it is about propping up a failing industry.

Oh My, Its failing? I didn't know that. :roll: Name me one wind company that received subsidies that went go under.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Oh My, Its failing? I didn't know that. :roll: Name me one wind company that received subsidies that went go under.

The fact that they can't exist without gov subsidies makes them a failure.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

You were happy to discuss carbon taxes until you got a question you couldn't answer. :lamo

You wanted to discuss if AGW was fact or fiction. This thread is about wind mills not the same old argument about AGW. If you implement a carbon tax on fossil fuel plants while subsidizing wind and solar and call that a free market, all I can say is :lamo

 

[Democrat152]

You are missing or ignoring the point here. Wind and solar can never replace traditional power and no dams will be removed, no fossil fuel power plants will shut down because of these so called green energy sources. Not only are they wildly unreliable but they can not show a profit without huge gov subsidies.

Yes they can. A recent study showed JUST Earth's Wind Resources are enough to power the earth 5 times over. Couple that with Solar, Hydro, and Geothermal, and we are in good shape. Think about it, when the wind is not blowing, the sun is usually shining, and vice versa.The only hurdle is replacing our current grid with a Smart Grid. BTW, green companies are still companies, so they must be profitable. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have wind and solar farms.

 

[Democrat152]

You wanted to discuss if AGW was fact or fiction. This thread is about wind mills not the same old argument about AGW. If you implement a carbon tax on fossil fuel plants while subsidizing wind and solar and call that a free market, all I can say is :lamo

Using a carbon tax to fund subsidies for Green Companies....that's actually a really good idea......

 

[Democrat152]

The fact that they can't exist without gov subsidies makes them a failure.

They can exist without them , but they wouldn't build as much as fast now would they? Obama is trying to make green infrastructure as built up as possible in his presidency. Which I very much approve.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Yes they can. A recent study showed JUST Earth's Wind Resources are enough to power the earth 5 times over. Couple that with Solar, Hydro, and Geothermal, and we are in good shape. Think about it, when the wind is not blowing, the sun is usually shining, and vice versa.The only hurdle is replacing our current grid with a Smart Grid. BTW, green companies are still companies, so they must be profitable. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have wind and solar farms.

If you get 5 billion a year from tax payers to exist you are not profitable, you are subsidized.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Using a carbon tax to fund subsidies for Green Companies....that's actually a really good idea......

Yes, Castro would approve.:lol: