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The WH/S. Sanders doesn't care whether it/she speaks the truth or upholds the order of law

Xelor

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You may recall that Michael Flynn submitted a sentencing memo that broached the notion that he was somehow entrapped. Today, Judge Sullivan presided over Flynn's sentencing hearing, and during the portion in which he reviewed Flynn's sentencing requests, Sullivan expressly asked Flynn whether he was of a mind to retract his guilty plea and pursue a line whereby he argued that the government's, the FBI's specifically, actions were of a nature that made his lies be not criminally culpable.

Sullivan:​
Mr. Flynn's briefing concerned the court...I cannot recall any incident where the court has ever accepted the plea of someone who maintained he was not guilty. (Source)... I will inform you, any false answers will get you in more trouble, do you understand?​

Flynn:​
[Yes]

Sullivan:​

Flynn:​

(Source) -- Note: If/when I see the transcript of the hearing, I'll add it to the thread.​

Sullivan concluded that line of inquiry asking whether Flynn "believed that he was entrapped by the FBI?" Flynn, through his attorney, responded, "No."


That exchange transpired well before today's WH press briefing, yet Sarah Sanders, when asked if the WH was of a mind to revisit its stance that Flynn was ambushed, said "no" and she repeated a non-sequitur canard (~2:27 in the video below) regarding the fact of Jim Comey having said that questioning procedure extant in Flynn's in-WH interview was non-standard was adequate for the WH to maintain that Flynn's lying was something other than willful and wholly of Flynn's own contrivance.




That is the WH's, thus Trump's, current position even though:


  • Flynn pled guilty to lying
  • Flynn was, by the judge, given the uncommon opportunity to retract his guilty plea because, as Sullivan noted, the charge Flynn broached in his sentencing request "concerned" the judge. No surprise that, for such a claim, albeit untimely (the time to present it was before pleading, thus, should it prevail, obviating the need, to say nothing of the cost, to plead and proceed to trail; or, if not presented before trial, at trial as part of Flynn's defense) if shown in court to be true, would be a "fair and just" reason for not only retracting a guilty plea, but also form the foundation of a defense that has a reasonable chance of prevailing on a point of law and jurisprudential ethos. Flynn demurred.
  • Flynn, in addition to declining the opportunity to alter his plea, Flynn explicitly trothed that he was not entrapped.
  • Donald Trump acknowledged that Flynn lied to the FBI: "Flynn lied and they've destroyed his life."
So not only has everyone who matters -- Flynn, Judge Sullivan, the DoJ, and Donald Trump (once) -- acknowledged and agreed that Flynn lied, and it's not been made clear that not even Flynn and his lawyers are of a mind that Flynn was entrapped or otherwise cajoled/coerced into lying, Trump's WH opted to stand on the untruth that Flynn was somehow railroaded into lying.

If ever there were any doubt before, it's clear now that Trump and/thus WH haven't a problem with lying. They have a problem with the FBI. Listen to Sarah Sanders respond to the question of whether the WH/Trump has a problem with one of his top aides having lied to the FBI. "Not when it comes to things that have anything to do with the President." (~5:50 in the video above) In other words, "No."

Seriously?!?! Trump's top national security advisor lied to the FBI and that doesn't bother Trump. WTH!!!

Trump's/the WH's insouciance about lying might be because doing so is SOP, perhaps even de rigueur, with Trump for as Giuliani implicitly acknowledged, Trump has changed his story four or five times.

So, what person would you have and trust as your employee, friend, leader, associate, or veritable strangers who simply has no concern that you lie to them or who lies to you? Do you welcome into your realm liars? Do you clamor to exculpate, defend and ingratiate yourself with liars?



Note:
  • Flynn timeline included only to provide temporal perspective.
 

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I really don't get what the WH Clown Show is about with the position they continue to maintain. They are not doing Flynn any favors at this point. Flynn has to get as far away from that "they set me up" nonsense as he can get. Trump and the WH pushing it on him is not exactly a favor to Flynn. How they resurrected the Keystone Kops and the Three Stooges and installed them at the WH is pretty much a miracle.

Is it any wonder that the Trump Foundation is yet another corrupt, deceitful Trump enterprise that also happens to be a clown show?
 
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I think the White House is preparing to pardon Flynn. This will send a message to others that pardons will be given if you're not "a rat" like Cohen.

This is a sinking ship we're watching.
 
I think the White House is preparing to pardon Flynn. This will send a message to others that pardons will be given if you're not "a rat" like Cohen.

This is a sinking ship we're watching.

At this stage of the game I'd rather face the music than take a pardon from the current administration. Politically, they're quite the clown show and the more you distance yourself from it the better.
 
I think the White House is preparing to pardon Flynn. This will send a message to others that pardons will be given if you're not "a rat" like Cohen.

This is a sinking ship we're watching.

I actually think Flynn has flipped. But we are not going to know what Mueller knows until he can connect all the links on both ends of the chain, from Russian Hacking, the email scandal and Interference through Trump and Flynn business dealings and the outreach regarding Sanctions. But Mueller is close. Once he ties in Roger Stone and Assange he is basically there.
 
I actually think Flynn has flipped. But we are not going to know what Mueller knows until he can connect all the links on both ends of the chain, from Russian Hacking, the email scandal and Interference through Trump and Flynn business dealings and the outreach regarding Sanctions. But Mueller is close. Once he ties in Roger Stone and Assange he is basically there.

I suspect that the judge knows more than we know. He read all the redacted bits. I find it interesting that he said Flynn "sold out" his country and he brought up treason.

This makes me suspect that Flynn was involved in something more serious.

"We do not yet know everything about Flynn's cooperation," Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor from the Southern District of New York, told INSIDER in an interview. "The heavy redactions in the filing hide nearly all the details that Mueller provided to the court."

Jens David Ohlin, a vice dean at Cornell Law School who's an expert on criminal law, echoed that view.

https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-flynn-sentenced-mueller-russia-probe-2018-12

Remember the judge was disgusted by what he read.
 
I think the White House is preparing to pardon Flynn. This will send a message to others that pardons will be given if you're not "a rat" like Cohen.

This is a sinking ship we're watching.

IDK. Mueller seems concerned about Flynn's status and the judge may want him to serve jail time. I think the authorities are watching what Trump does. If Trump decides to pardon Flynn while another investigation begins. What would happen then? Just because this case has ended doesn't mean that they can't charge Flynn with more crimes. Like you said, the judge already raised the question of charging Flynn with treason. He already admitted to lying. The WH is still pushing the same entrapment narrative. But Papa George is back under investigation and they'll have some questions for his wife too.

Can Trump pardon Flynn but then Flynn gets charged with treason??? I think Mueller designed this so that Trump pardons will be worthless.

I'm not worried about any Trump pardons, except what Pence might do.
 
I suspect that the judge knows more than we know. He read all the redacted bits. I find it interesting that he said Flynn "sold out" his country and he brought up treason.

This makes me suspect that Flynn was involved in something more serious.



https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-flynn-sentenced-mueller-russia-probe-2018-12

Remember the judge was disgusted by what he read.

Red:
That was salient to me too. Sullivan isn't a magician, literally or figuratively, and he's not a partisan. That remark came from something he read in a court filing. Maybe it came from the fact of the indictment of Flynn's "Turkey" associates? Maybe it came from the heavily redacted sections of Flynn's sentencing documents? I don't know, but I find it hard to believe Emm hatched it himself.

Another thing to know about Sullivan is that his is not a courtroom into which one wants to find oneself if one hasn't "dotted one's ies and crossed one's tees," especially if one is arguing on behalf of The People. It's good that Mueller is the counselor leading the "Russia" investigation; he's an i-dotter and tee-croser nonpareil.
 
IDK. Mueller seems concerned about Flynn's status and the judge may want him to serve jail time. I think the authorities are watching what Trump does. If Trump decides to pardon Flynn while another investigation begins. What would happen then? Just because this case has ended doesn't mean that they can't charge Flynn with more crimes. Like you said, the judge already raised the question of charging Flynn with treason. He already admitted to lying. The WH is still pushing the same entrapment narrative. But Papa George is back under investigation and they'll have some questions for his wife too.

Can Trump pardon Flynn but then Flynn gets charged with treason??? I think Mueller designed this so that Trump pardons will be worthless.

I'm not worried about any Trump pardons, except what Pence might do.

Red:
I've said this elsewhere on DP...

I think Mueller sees his charge less as one aimed at putting folks in jail and more one of getting clarity on the nature and extent to which Russia has infiltrated US democratic processes and institutions, and, in turn, getting Russia (and its agents and sympathisers) out of any such "locales" in which it's insinuated itself. I think Mueller is willing to be fairly lenient if exists good reason for him to think an otherwise patriotic, honest and law abiding US citizen of integrity was duped or co-opted into abetting Russia's, Putin's, subversive ends.

I think Mueller is concerned with and will absolutely incarcerate dissemblers whose actions augured to undermine US institutions and democracy, but "petty" criminals, which about what Cohen, for instance, seems to be, don't appear to concern him. That's, IMO, as it should be for Russian infiltration and duplicitous manipulation of our largely naive polity is far and away the bigger problem.

In all that, Trump is, as usual, sui generis in that he appears to have willfully opeted to suborn the very sovereignty/integrity of US democratic institutions to his own personal and pecuniary ends, exacerbating that by lying and resisting every entreaty to get from him the existential truth of the nature of his interactions with the very Russians who seek to undermine our and every other democracy in the Western world. Would Mueller see Trump sent to prison? I think so. I think Mueller'd "throw the book at him."
 
Red:
I've said this elsewhere on DP...

I think Mueller sees his charge less as one aimed at putting folks in jail and more one of getting clarity on the nature and extent to which Russia has infiltrated US democratic processes and institutions, and, in turn, getting Russia (and its agents and sympathisers) out of any such "locales" in which it's insinuated itself. I think Mueller is willing to be fairly lenient if exists good reason for him to think an otherwise patriotic, honest and law abiding US citizen of integrity was duped or co-opted into abetting Russia's, Putin's, subversive ends.

I think Mueller is concerned with and will absolutely incarcerate dissemblers whose actions augured to undermine US institutions and democracy, but "petty" criminals, which about what Cohen, for instance, seems to be, don't appear to concern him. That's, IMO, as it should be for Russian infiltration and duplicitous manipulation of our largely naive polity is far and away the bigger problem.

In all that, Trump is, as usual, sui generis in that he appears to have willfully opeted to suborn the very sovereignty/integrity of US democratic institutions to his own personal and pecuniary ends, exacerbating that by lying and resisting every entreaty to get from him the existential truth of the nature of his interactions with the very Russians who seek to undermine our and every other democracy in the Western world. Would Mueller see Trump sent to prison? I think so. I think Mueller'd "throw the book at him."

That's why there is a focus on Stone, Wikileaks, and Corisi. Hannity included. Those are big pieces. It's interesting that Flynn and Cohen were first to fall and not Corsi. I think that Mueller has a secret weapon in that camp. Secret witnesses such as seth rich's family and others like Pecker who have records of criminal intent about all these schemes.
 
Red:
That was salient to me too. Sullivan isn't a magician, literally or figuratively, and he's not a partisan. That remark came from something he read in a court filing. Maybe it came from the fact of the indictment of Flynn's "Turkey" associates? Maybe it came from the heavily redacted sections of Flynn's sentencing documents? I don't know, but I find it hard to believe Emm hatched it himself.

Another thing to know about Sullivan is that his is not a courtroom into which one wants to find oneself if one hasn't "dotted one's ies and crossed one's tees," especially if one is arguing on behalf of The People. It's good that Mueller is the counselor leading the "Russia" investigation; he's an i-dotter and tee-croser nonpareil.

I think both the Defense and the Prosecution would have faired much better today if Flynn's Defense team had not come up with that goofy "I got framed" memo. That was beyond stupid and really opened the door for Sullivan to question the voracity of Flynn's Plea. When a Judge does that, it reflects on both the Defendant and the Prosecution as in "what the heck are all of you guys doing".

Mueller got tripped up on the timing of events and Flynn's team just got dynamited clear into outer space.

Mueller had the Eastern Dist Virginia criminal charges filed just before this sentencing date. Makes sense because Mueller was trying to fill in more blanks for Sullivan with regard to Flynn's cooperation. Now normally the sentencing Judge would not be compelled into a circumstance where he would have to go through those charges with a fine tooth comb. He would just say "OK, I get it...Flynn is helping you in this Turkey matter as well. You have got these two guys nailed to the wall and you have them nailed to the wall because of Flynn's cooperation. Got it."

However, the Flynn Defense Team's goofy "I got set up" memo right angled into all of that and suddenly Sullivan was confronted by a Defendant trying to rehabilitate himself over his hump, in his Courtroom! Sullivan started breaking the fine China! He had not read the Charges from the Eastern Dist Turkey matter with enough focus because he was left in a position that was pretty unusual for a Federal Judge.

You could tell that the two things that most bothered Sullivan were:
1) The "I got set up" Flynn position because it literally brought into question Flynn's actual plea!
2) The actual offense of having lied to the FBI from an office in the WH

That got Sullivan so fired up that he misread the Charges in the Eastern Dist case.

Finally, Sullivan does not think Flynn should be before him for sentencing before the Eastern Dist case "and other matters" were completed. That is a valid concern but speaks to how quickly Mueller is trying to move.

The downstream issues that spring from today are Roger Stone and Corsi who are next in line for "there time in the barrel" to turn a Roger Stone phrase back on him. Can Mueller convince them that he can get a Judge to Probation only, no jail time in light of what just happened today.

I do have to admit though that if there is anything left that Flynn has left out, its probably going to come Mueller's way now thanks in large part to Sullivan.

The biggest Flynn question is why did he lie about his communications with Kislyak. There is something way more sinister behind that and its sits right at the intersection of the Russian Interference, Trump Campaign willingness to deal for Clinton dirt, the Trump/Flynn business deals in and around Russia and Saudi, and Sanctions Relief. I very much suspect that Mueller already knows why Flynn lied about it. We won't know till we are much closer to the end of this thing.
 
I think both the Defense and the Prosecution would have faired much better today if Flynn's Defense team had not come up with that goofy "I got framed" memo. That was beyond stupid and really opened the door for Sullivan to question the voracity of Flynn's Plea. When a Judge does that, it reflects on both the Defendant and the Prosecution as in "what the heck are all of you guys doing".

Mueller got tripped up on the timing of events and Flynn's team just got dynamited clear into outer space.

Mueller had the Eastern Dist Virginia criminal charges filed just before this sentencing date. Makes sense because Mueller was trying to fill in more blanks for Sullivan with regard to Flynn's cooperation. Now normally the sentencing Judge would not be compelled into a circumstance where he would have to go through those charges with a fine tooth comb. He would just say "OK, I get it...Flynn is helping you in this Turkey matter as well. You have got these two guys nailed to the wall and you have them nailed to the wall because of Flynn's cooperation. Got it."

...

You could tell that the two things that most bothered Sullivan were:
1) The "I got set up" Flynn position because it literally brought into question Flynn's actual plea!
2) The actual offense of having lied to the FBI from an office in the WH


That got Sullivan so fired up that he misread the Charges in the Eastern Dist case.

Finally, Sullivan does not think Flynn should be before him for sentencing before the Eastern Dist case "and other matters" were completed. That is a valid concern but speaks to how quickly Mueller is trying to move.

The downstream issues that spring from today are Roger Stone and Corsi who are next in line for "there time in the barrel" to turn a Roger Stone phrase back on him. Can Mueller convince them that he can get a Judge to Probation only, no jail time in light of what just happened today.

I do have to admit though that if there is anything left that Flynn has left out, its probably going to come Mueller's way now thanks in large part to Sullivan.

The biggest Flynn question is why did he lie about his communications with Kislyak. There is something way more sinister behind that and its sits right at the intersection of the Russian Interference, Trump Campaign willingness to deal for Clinton dirt, the Trump/Flynn business deals in and around Russia and Saudi, and Sanctions Relief. I very much suspect that Mueller already knows why Flynn lied about it. We won't know till we are much closer to the end of this thing.
That Flynn' sentencing was set prior to his completing his cooperation was, on its own, irregular.

Red: Yes, it was.

Blue:
I don't know that it reflected poorly on the prosecution. Once Em saw the 302, I think the prosecution was in the clear.

Pink:
Plausible. I don't know that I think that probable, but I wouldn't bet against it.

Tan + Brown:
Yes.

Brown:
This is what Em was pissed about in a big way. He doesn't cotton well to allegations that the gov't abridge a defendant's rights. Given his background, it's a "no brainer" to understand why he's sensitive to defendant's claims of such.

Teal:
Maybe I'm overly sensitive to potentially-espionage-related "stuff," but I cannot overlook the fact of the national intelligence role Flynn played. I think Mueller wants Flynn's visibility greatly reduced so Flynn can be more ably used to abet that aspect of the Russia investigation. Obviously, however, Em seems, based on his 50-mile radius and passport seizure orders, to be of a different mind. Feint? I don't know. I just know there's a whole lotta strangeness going on with the Flynn part of the investigation.
  • KT McFarland was party to the same Russia and Turkey stuff Flynn was, yet she, apparently, hasn't been charged.
  • Flynn was a spy while serving as the "NSA elect" and receiving classified briefings as of Sept. 2017, yet the DoJ apparently has taken a "meh" attitude toward his being so, even as they had him "dead to rights" as a foreign agent, aiding and abetting a despot, no less.
  • We still don't know why he lied about communications we know he he knew had been monitored and recorded.
I'm sorry, but I'm incredulous that "substantial cooperation," no matter how substantial, is enough to warrant a prosecutor essentially saying "charge him as you see fit, but no incarceration is fine with us" and not charging him for being a spy.
 
Maybe I'm overly sensitive to potentially-espionage-related "stuff," but I cannot overlook the fact of the national intelligence role Flynn played. I think Mueller wants Flynn's visibility greatly reduced so Flynn can be more ably used to abet that aspect of the Russia investigation. Obviously, however, Em seems, based on his 50-mile radius and passport seizure orders, to be of a different mind. Feint? I don't know. I just know there's a whole lotta strangeness going on with the Flynn part of the investigation.
  • KT McFarland was party to the same Russia and Turkey stuff Flynn was, yet she, apparently, hasn't been charged.
  • Flynn was a spy while serving as the "NSA elect" and receiving classified briefings as of Sept. 2017, yet the DoJ apparently has taken a "meh" attitude toward his being so, even as they had him "dead to rights" as a foreign agent, aiding and abetting a despot, no less.
  • We still don't know why he lied about communications we know he he knew had been monitored and recorded.
I'm sorry, but I'm incredulous that "substantial cooperation," no matter how substantial, is enough to warrant a prosecutor essentially saying "charge him as you see fit, but no incarceration is fine with us" and not charging him for being a spy.

I am really with you on Flynn and the likely reasons why the way he is being handled as an asset to the Prosecution is just weird. Flynn does IMO bind Trump to the entire issue of personal financial gain and the Sanctions relief trade off that is truly as sinister from the US side of things as the hacking and interference is from the Russian side of things. Corsi and Stone would bind the Russian Interference to Trump and between the two, the personal financial gain end for Trump and Flynn with the Sanctions trade off and the Russian Interference with Corsi/Stone, you really have the entire Conspiracy from end to end.

I also agree and would find it entirely likely that Mueller is trying to mask or shield Flynn and his cooperation directly in the Trump/Russia investigation FOR NOW and until Mueller is ready.

It would make complete sense for Mueller to want to use Flynn much like SDNY used Pecker. We did not get the substance of Pecker's cooperation and the corroboration it embodied until SDNY was ready to lower the boom and suddenly BANG, once they revealed what Pecker had given them the whole case came together in a way that is simply undeniable no matter how many posters here and no matter how much Faux News tries to deny it.

IMO once Mueller is as ready with the Russia Investigation as SDNY was with the payoffs case, the BANG will be the real story behind why Flynn lied about his conversations with Kislyak and in fact how many more conversations he had with Kislyak than the one that to this point gets all the attention and how much Trump really knew about the nature of those and other discussions including those with other Russians. I even wonder if the Trump Tower meeting ultimately becomes a sideshow, just more evidence of how willing the Trump gang was to fall into the hands of Russian agents in order to get Hillary dirt.

Mueller has been happy to this point to have a good deal of attention go to the Trump Tower meeting and it is important in the sense that one way to really tie Trump in knots is through the indiscretions of Don Jr, Ivanka and Kushner. I just don't think its the centerpiece of the case. I always thought that the Flynn lies sit right at the nexus of the case.
 
as yesterday was a big news day and it was my last day before break, i was listening to the news live and caught part of Sanders' routine. when she doubled down on the "ambush" horse****, i just had to shake my head. i don't know why the non-fox press even bothers to cover press conferences at this point. it's just lie after lie after lie.
 
....

Mueller has been happy to this point to have a good deal of attention go to the Trump Tower meeting and it is important in the sense that one way to really tie Trump in knots is through the indiscretions of Don Jr, Ivanka and Kushner. I just don't think its the centerpiece of the case. I always thought that the Flynn lies sit right at the nexus of the case.
Ask yourself the three things you must always ask yourself before you say anything.​
1) Does this need to be said?
2) Does this need to be said by me?
3) Does this need to be said by me now?​
-- Craig Ferguson​


Red:
When people say stuff about you or what you're doing/thinking/intending, do you respond to them with affirmations or denials, or do you say nothing and just let them keep on thinking whatever the hell they wanna think, all the while you're content knowing that, by their remarks and their lack of proximity (tangible and intangible) to you, you know they don't know what they're talking about?

By and large, I do the latter, and that's what I'm all but certain is Mueller's mindset and modus regarding what "everyone" else has to say about the "dots" in his investigation. I'm sure he simply chuckles to himself and says, "Well, you just keep thinking that..." There's no reason for him to do otherwise. He's obliged to share nothing he doesn't want to and he and his cases benefit not by his allowing himself to be baited into do so.

"Adams was probably a sourbelly," said Stahr. "He wanted to be head man himself, but he didn't have the judgement or else the character."
"He had brains," said Wylie rather tartly.
"It takes more than brains. You writers and artists poop out and get all mixed up, and somebody has to come in and straighten you out." He shrugged his shoulders. "You seem to take things so personally, hating people and worshipping them--always thinking people are so important-especially yourselves. You just ask to be kicked around. I like people and I like them to like me, but I wear my heart where God put it--on the inside.”
-- F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Last Tycoon
 
I have looked for the transcript of the hearing. I don't see it on the Internet yet. The closest thing I've found is TRMS reading it.

 
What the Sanders presser clearly demonstrated is that Trump and company live in their own delusional alternate reality and nothing will be allowed to encroach upon it or upset it. The believe what they believe because they want to believe it and facts and reality have nothing at all to do with it.

This attitude is pervasive among right wingers who reside in a mental state that precariously is balanced between illness and being able to function in normal society.

Trump crosses that line all the time and has left no doubt that he is mentally disturbed. Sanders today demonstrated that if you want to work for him, you too must check into the Washington DC version of Arkham Asylum and leave reality at the door.
 
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