The War on Chanukah!!

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Ok, here's a question, because everyone wants to bring up the separation of church and state issue....people that don't like say that the establishment clause of the First Amendment doesn't say anything about a "wall" or whatever, but I have never interpreted that part of the amendment to mean anything other than a separation of church and state.

If Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the First Amendment, did not intend for there to be a wall of separation, then why did he write this to the Danbury Baptist Association?

Because Jefferson was an Athiest or an agnostic at best, however, his opinion did not represent the majority of the signatories to the constitution, in fact the Supreme Court decision to erect the wall between church and state is in violation of the intent of the first amendment which is stop the government from preventing the free expression of religion the ACLU has successfully transformed the 1st amendment as a safeguard against theocracy to a weapon to be wielded against any persons of a religious nature, and I'm saying this as an agnostic I don't know if there's a god or not, but the wall between church and state HAS created an established religion and that religion is called atheism that has every single agreed upon characteristics of a religion. Jefferson at the time when he made that statement simply didn't understand the nature of the nation as it would become following WW2, Jefferson died 12 years after Marx was born and Jefferson simply didn't live long enough in for him to get to know the evils of socialism and the techniques they would use in the future to destroy American society.

 

[Engimo]

I'm saying this as an agnostic I don't know if there's a god or not, but the wall between church and state HAS created an established religion and that religion is called atheism that has every single agreed upon characteristics of a religion.

Haha, oh really?

Religion - "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." -American Heritage Dictionary

Atheism - "Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods."

If atheism is a religion, then so is a-subatomicdragonism (the disbelief that strong force is transmitted by tiny, invisible dragons). The idea that something that is, by definition, the DENIAL of religion, is a religion is nonsensical.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Haha, oh really?

Religion - "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." -American Heritage Dictionary

Atheism - "Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods."

If atheism is a religion, then so is a-subatomicdragonism (the disbelief that strong force is transmitted by tiny, invisible dragons). The idea that something that is, by definition, the DENIAL of religion, is a religion is nonsensical.

That's not the sholarly definition of religion which is that religion is a belief system centering upon a pivotal value to which all other values are subordinate, atheism as it is practiced today would certainly be classified as a form of religion. I suggest you take a religious studies course and not quote me your one dimentional and fallacious definitions.

 

[tryreading]

So basically......you're trying to say that anyone that is a liberal or off to the far left doesn't have religion? And that it's the LEFT that is trying to impose their ideas on everyone else?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That was funny, thanks, I needed a good laugh.

You made me laugh.

"Then, as part of the master plan, when the Liberals have succeeded in removing every religious symbol from all public buildings, they will insert new symbols, those which are important to the Liberal.

"What will those symbols be? A stylized representation of the hybrid automobile. A Liberal media emblem, prominently displaying the silhouette of Dan Rather. A two ton monument to the dove."

From the official 'Liberal Handbook', edited by Ted Kennedy, published by the ACLU. Sorry, I don't have a link.

 

[Engimo]

That's not the sholarly definition of religion which is that religion is a belief system centering upon a pivotal value to which all other values are subordinate, atheism as it is practiced today would certainly be classified as a form of religion. I suggest you take a religious studies course and not quote me your one dimentional and fallacious definitions.

Sorry, I guess I'm not a sholar like you. You're right, the dictionary is not a good place to go for definitions, I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Anyways, atheism does not have a doctrine about which there are any other values, it is simply a statement of disbelief. Many atheists follow the philosophy of secular humanism, for example, but that does not mean that any values are inherent to the idea of atheism.

For example, are there any values associated with a-subatomicdragonism? No, there are not. You may adopt philosophies that incorporate your disbelief of tiny dragons, but that does not mean that the belief by itself has any innate value, it is simply a belief.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Sorry, I guess I'm not a sholar like you. You're right, the dictionary is not a good place to go for definitions, I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Anyways, atheism does not have a doctrine about which there are any other values, it is simply a statement of disbelief. Many atheists follow the philosophy of secular humanism, for example, but that does not mean that any values are inherent to the idea of atheism.

For example, are there any values associated with a-subatomicdragonism? No, there are not. You may adopt philosophies that incorporate your disbelief of tiny dragons, but that does not mean that the belief by itself has any innate value, it is simply a belief.

Atheism is a belief system that centers around the pivotal value that god does not exist all other values are subodinate to that pivotal value, atheism IS a religion. I know you meant the sholar comment as a stab yet that does not make it any the less accurate so thanks for the compliment.

 

[Engimo]

Atheism is a belief system that centers around the pivotal value that god does not exist all other values are subodinate to that pivotal value, atheism IS a religion.

No, it is not. While many atheists may adopt a philosophy that centers around atheism as a belief, that does not mean that it provides a value system inherently.

Also, religions have to, by definition, talk about a supernatural being or a deity. There is no such thing in atheism. By your definition, belief in capitalism for a businessman could be a religion, if he thinks about it enough. It's nonsense - religion is about gods, not about value systems. Just because you derive a value system based on or involving a belief does not make it religious. The crucial element of religion is a deity, like I said about 5 times.

Edit: Yes, the "sholar" comment was a stab, because the word is "scholar".

 

[Caine]

From the official 'Liberal Handbook', edited by Ted Kennedy, published by the ACLU. Sorry, I don't have a link.

Hrm. Sounds like BS to me.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No, it is not. While many atheists may adopt a philosophy that centers around atheism as a belief, that does not mean that it provides a value system inherently.

Yes it does when you are an atheist then you believe that god does not exist that becomes the pivotal value to which all other values are subordinate in that you believe that god has no place in the life of human beings atheism is most certainly a religion it has all the characteristics of a religion believing in a god and religion are not mutually inclusive one does not define the other you are simply mistaken.

Also, religions have to, by definition, talk about a supernatural being or a deity. There is no such thing in atheism. By your definition, belief in capitalism for a businessman could be a religion, if he thinks about it enough. It's nonsense - religion is about gods, not about value systems. Just because you derive a value system based on or involving a belief does not make it religious. The crucial element of religion is a deity, like I said about 5 times.

No it is not the definition of religion makes no reference to a deity that is because many religions do not believe in a higher being; such as, Confuscianism the belief that religion must involve a higher being is simply fallacious.

Edit: Yes, the "sholar" comment was a stab, because the word is "scholar".

It was a typo when I get in my stream of consciousness mode I don't hit the spell check button and my thoughts go right from my brain to the keyboard.

 

[Engimo]

No it is not the definition of religion makes no reference to a deity that is because many religions do not believe in a higher being; such as, Confuscianism the belief that religion must involve a higher being is simply fallacious.

Confuscianism is not a religion, that would be why. It is a philosophy. Under your definition, any philosophy that someone uses as a basis for their life is a religion, which is simply not true. I'd like to see a source for your definition of religion, because the dictionary does not agree with you, as does the colloquial usage of the word.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Confuscianism is not a religion, that would be why. It is a philosophy. Under your definition, any philosophy that someone uses as a basis for their life is a religion, which is simply not true. I'd like to see a source for your definition of religion, because the dictionary does not agree with you, as does the colloquial usage of the word.

I learned it in a religious studies course I don't have the book on hand because I'm home for the holidays, however, I'll have access to it tomorrow and get back to you then; furthermore, many religions don't believe in a higher being Confuscianism is both a philosophy and a religion I don't care what the dictionary says the dictionary is not a scholarly work; furthermore, my main problem with atheism is that they are objective as opposed to subjective in their views, they start out with the conclusion that god does not exist and then set out to prove that assertion when in reality confirmation or denial of a higher being is simply impossible that's why I'm agnostic. Furthermore; you are making the common mistake of confusing organized religion with religion itself religion is not necessarly a spiritual matter it can be any set of beliefs based upon a pivotal value and as I've explained that fits Atheism to a T.

 

[Caine]

I learned it in a religious studies course I don't have the book on hand because I'm home for the holidays, however, I'll have access to it tomorrow and get back to you then; furthermore, many religions don't believe in a higher being Confuscianism is both a philosophy and a religion I don't care what the dictionary says the dictionary is not a scholarly work; furthermore, my main problem with atheism is that they are objective as opposed to subjective in their views, they start out with the conclusion that god does not exist and then set out to prove that assertion when in reality confirmation or denial of a higher being is simply impossible that's why I'm agnostic. Furthermore; you are making the common mistake of confusing organized religion with religion itself religion is not necessarly a spiritual matter it can be any set of beliefs based upon a pivotal value and as I've explained that fits Atheism to a T.

Well, half of America is of the religion of Sex then, according to your "sholarly" definition.

 

[Engimo]

I learned it in a religious studies course I don't have the book on hand because I'm home for the holidays, however, I'll have access to it tomorrow and get back to you then; furthermore, many religions don't believe in a higher being Confuscianism is both a philosophy and a religion I don't care what the dictionary says the dictionary is not a scholarly work; furthermore, my main problem with atheism is that they are objective as opposed to subjective in their views, they start out with the conclusion that god does not exist and then set out to prove that assertion when in reality confirmation or denial of a higher being is simply impossible that's why I'm agnostic. Furthermore; you are making the common mistake of confusing organized religion with religion itself religion is not necessarly a spiritual matter it can be any set of beliefs based upon a pivotal value and as I've explained that fits Atheism to a T.

You're missing the point. Nowhere in the tenents of atheism does it say that you have to prescribe to a certain philosophy, or make your disbelief of God any significant part of your life. In fact, there aren't any tenents of atheism, because it is simply a declaration of a belief. There are no inherent values to atheism.

Repeat it with me: ATHEISM HAS NO INHERENT VALUE SYSTEM.

I certainly don't base my morality/values upon my disbelief in a God, any more than I base them on my disbelief in the subatomic dragons.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You're missing the point. Nowhere in the tenents of atheism does it say that you have to prescribe to a certain philosophy, or make your disbelief of God any significant part of your life. In fact, there aren't any tenents of atheism, because it is simply a declaration of a belief. There are no inherent values to atheism.

Repeat it with me: ATHEISM HAS NO INHERENT VALUE SYSTEM.

I certainly don't base my morality/values upon my disbelief in a God, any more than I base them on my disbelief in the subatomic dragons.

First I want to itterate that I mispoke atheists are subjective and not objective in their views; furthermore, you are missing the point hard atheists most certainly do base their value system on the disbelief in god in that they believe that secularism is the natural order to things and that god has no place in human civilization, that is a belief system which centers around the pivotal value that god does not exist and is by definition a religion. That's why I'm agnostic I get the best of both worlds.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well, half of America is of the religion of Sex then, according to your "sholarly" definition.

I don't know about sex but one could certainly make the argument that the majority of Americans are followers of the religion of Capitalism just as the Soviets were followers of the religion of communism.

 

[Engimo]

First I want to itterate that I mispoke atheists are subjective and not objective in their views; furthermore, you are missing the point hard atheists most certainly do base their value system on the disbelief in god in that they believe that secularism is the natural order to things and that religion has no part in human civilization, that is a belief system which centers around the pivotal value that god does not exist and is by definition a religion.

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

While many atheists act that way, or prescribe to that philosophy, not all atheists do. There is no inherent value system or morality or belief in secularism to being an atheist.

What if you are an atheist that feels that religion is good for practical purposes and should be encouraged? Like I said, there is no inherent value system to atheism, it is simply the statement of a belief. If you can't understand this simple concept, I think you'll have a hard time as a sholar.

 

[Caine]

I don't know about sex but one could certainly make the argument that the majority of Americans are followers of the religion of Capitalism just as the Soviets were followers of the religion of communism.

Capitalism? You think people in this country hold capitalism to a "pivotal" value in thier life?
You must live in Rich Boy world. Im sorry your daddy set you up in life
. Im sorry, there are many more people in society who's central goal day in and day out is to have sex. Wouldn't you say that is a pivotal value?

Im just trying to show you how stupid your argument sounds.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

While many atheists act that way, or prescribe to that philosophy, not all atheists do. There is no inherent value system or morality or belief in secularism to being an atheist.

What if you are an atheist that feels that religion is good for practical purposes and should be encouraged? Like I said, there is no inherent value system to atheism, it is simply the statement of a belief. If you can't understand this simple concept, I think you'll have a hard time as a sholar.

This is like saying that because all Christians don't subscribe to the same church Dogma that Christianity isn't a religion, while the Atheists do not all subscribe to one set Dogma they do, however, all subscribe to the central value that there is no god this central belief that there is no god is analogous to all Christians belief that Jesus is god, you are confusing organized religion with religion itself.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Capitalism? You think people in this country hold capitalism to a "pivotal" value in thier life?
You must live in Rich Boy world. Im sorry your daddy set you up in life
. Im sorry, there are many more people in society who's central goal day in and day out is to have sex. Wouldn't you say that is a pivotal value?

Im just trying to show you how stupid your argument sounds.

It's not my argument it's the argument that is made by all religious scholars, and sex would not be defined as a religion because it is not a central value or a belief that all other values are subordinate to. Your attempts at critical thought are pretty laughable. And I'm sorry you don't understand that Capitalism could be defined as a religion in that the pivotal value's are the aquirment of wealth and the achievment of success to which all other values are subordinate to those central values. As for the Rich Boy comment nice try I'm a rugged individualist I'm sorry your daddy set you up to take a fall by instilling in you an ideology based on the pretense that the government should be your catalyst for success.

 

[Caine]

It's not my argument it's the argument that is made by all religious scholars

So.... just because they are religious scholars they are right? Negative.

sex would not be defined as a religion because it is not a central value or a belief that all other values are subordinate to.

Says who? You?

Your attempts at critical thought are pretty laughable.

As are yours.

Capitalism could be defined as a religion in that the pivotal value's are the aquirment of wealth and the achievment of success to which all other values are subordinate to those central values.

Sexualism could be defined as a religion in that the pivotal value's are the aquirement of sexual pleasure and the achievement of an enjoyable orgasm to which all other values are subordinate to those central values.

As for the Rich Boy comment nice try I'm a rugged individualist

Says who? You?

I'm sorry your daddy set you up to take a fall by instilling in you an ideology based on the pretense that the government should be your catalyst for success.

Yes, its called my father encouraged me to join the service and serve my country, thus the government WAS my catalyst for success, secondly, I was encouraged to serve my community as a Police Officer, thus again the government being a major part of my success. If you have a problem with people who serve in the Armed Forces or as a Police Officer, maybe you should leave the country.

 

[tryreading]

Hrm. Sounds like BS to me.

Wait! I have proof. Its in Trajan's dictionary, though.

 

[Caine]

Wait! I have proof. Its in Trajan's dictionary, though.

That explains it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So.... just because they are religious scholars they are right? Negative.
Says who? You?
As are yours.
Sexualism could be defined as a religion in that the pivotal value's are the aquirement of sexual pleasure and the achievement of an enjoyable orgasm to which all other values are subordinate to those central values.

No it can't because the accumulation of sexual pleasure is not a pivotal value to which all other values are subordinate, for example I seriously doubt that any person would choose sex over a shiny new car, however, a true athiest will not relinquish their belief that god does not exist simply for material gain.

Says who? You?Yes, its called my father encouraged me to join the service and serve my country, thus the government WAS my catalyst for success, secondly, I was encouraged to serve my community as a Police Officer, thus again the government being a major part of my success. If you have a problem with people who serve in the Armed Forces or as a Police Officer, maybe you should leave the country.

I have no problem with that what I have a problem with is people relying on the government as their only means of support. Through your dedication and hard work you have earned what you have gotten that is called individualism, the people I have a problem with are the ones who do not earn what they believe they are entitled to and if you have a problem with that perhaps you should move to China.

 

[Engimo]

however, a true athiest will not relinquish their belief that god does not exist simply for material gain.

Why not? I would. Give me a couple million dollars and I'll worship whatever religion you want me to.

The belief of atheism contains absolutely no inherent value system, no matter what the majority of atheists do. Your previous post about Christian dogma is nonsensical and a poor analogy because Christians worship a God, invariably. See, the belief of Christianity (that Jesus was God), unlike the belief of Atheism, is religious - because it refers to the existence of a deity. I do not accept your definition of religion because it is contrary to every instance of its usage that I have heard in the past.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Why not? I would. Give me a couple million dollars and I'll worship whatever religion you want me to.

The belief of atheism contains absolutely no inherent value system, no matter what the majority of atheists do. Your previous post about Christian dogma is nonsensical and a poor analogy because Christians worship a God, invariably. See, the belief of Christianity (that Jesus was God), unlike the belief of Atheism, is religious - because it refers to the existence of a deity. I do not accept your definition of religion because it is contrary to every instance of its usage that I have heard in the past.

It is not a poor analogy:
The Christian religion is based on the pivotal value that Christ is the Messiah all other values are subordinate to that pivotal value.

The Atheist religion is based on the pivotal value that god does not exist all other values are subordinate to that pivotal value.

As for you selling out your convictions for material gain that is because you are not a true atheist.

The defintion of religion is further elaborated on in that it also states that those who do not commit to their convictions cannot truly be what they claim.

A true atheist would not relent his convictions for material gain just as a true Christian would not deny Christ for material gain.