The War in Maps

[slick]

Yanukovych betrayed the people of Ukraine by turning his back to agreements already made with the EU and turning back to Russia.

The UKRAINIANS rose up.

There you go again! How many times are you going with this, sounding like a broken record.
Once again you're flail with this because the facts aren't as you would wish. You need to work on that.

Ukraine ever since independence & the orange revolution was always in conflict between
the Lviv, Ternopil, Volyn crowd based in the the Galacian/Polish/Lituanian strongholds of Ukraine & the ethnic Russians east of the Dneipper. Since the beginnings power was
for the most part evenly split.

Yanukovych did not betray the people of Ukraine. One could say he betrayed the western
portion of Ukraine who by association & culture were more allied with the EU but they didn't support him anyway so how could one even assume that! Ukraine was betrayed by those
who engineered the Kiev Maidan Coup. A crowd of ultra-nationalists and its alleged relationship to neo-Nazism came to the fore, the more radical elements involved in the Euromaidan protests. The main Ukrainian organisations involved with a neo- Bandereraite legacy Right Sector, Svoboda and the Azov Battalion started to earn their stripes
clamoring for Freedom on the Kiev Maidan with the help of Victoria Nuland, & John McCain egging them on on the behalf of US neocons, resulting in an
rebellion & eventual seperation of the Dobass along with the loss of Crimea.

Summary of the 17 January and 7 February 2010 Ukrainian presidential election results

Votes	%	Votes	%
Candidates	Nominating Party	First round[241]	Second round[242]
	Viktor Yanukovych	Party of Regions	8,686,642	35.32	12,481,266	48.95
	Yulia Tymoshenko	All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland"	6,159,810	25.05	11,593,357	45.47

 

[Fledermaus]

There you go again! How many times are you going with this, sounding like a broken record.
Once again you're flail with this because the facts aren't as you would wish. You need to work on that.

Ukraine ever since independence & the orange revolution was always in conflict between
the Lviv, Ternopil, Volyn crowd based in the the Galacian/Polish/Lituanian strongholds of Ukraine & the ethnic Russians east of the Dneipper. Since the beginnings power was
for the most part evenly split.

Yanukovych did not betray the people of Ukraine. One could say he betrayed the western
portion of Ukraine who by association & culture were more allied with the EU but they didn't support him anyway so how could one even assume that! Ukraine was betrayed by those
who engineered the Kiev Maidan Coup. A crowd of ultra-nationalists and its alleged relationship to neo-Nazism came to the fore, the more radical elements involved in the Euromaidan protests. The main Ukrainian organisations involved with a neo- Bandereraite legacy Right Sector, Svoboda and the Azov Battalion started to earn their stripes
clamoring for Freedom on the Kiev Maidan with the help of Victoria Nuland, & John McCain egging them on on the behalf of US neocons, resulting in an
rebellion & eventual seperation of the Dobass along with the loss of Crimea.

Summary of the 17 January and 7 February 2010 Ukrainian presidential election results

Candidates	Nominating Party	First round[241]	Second round[242]
Votes	%	Votes	%
	Viktor Yanukovych	Party of Regions	8,686,642	35.32	12,481,266	48.95
	Yulia Tymoshenko	All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland"	6,159,810	25.05	11,593,357	45.47

Facts are facts.

Yanukovych betrayed the people of Ukraine by turning his back to agreements already made with the EU and turning back to Russia.

That is a fact.

The Ukrainian people protested.

That is a fact.

Yanukovich responded brutally cracking down on protests.

That is a fact.

The Ukrainian people protested even more fervently.

That is a fact.

Yanukovich responded with more brutality.

That is a fact.

When Yanukovich realized his brutality wouldn't win the day and the Rada prepared to impeach Yanukovich he courageously ran off to Russia.

Whether the Ukrainians of Donbass or Crimea sees it that way isn't relevant.

There are states in the US that did not agree with Biden being elected. So what?

Oh, all the Azov, Bandera, Svoboda, Nuland, neo-Nazi, McCain, US neocons, blah, blah, blah you can conjure doesn't change the facts.

They are simply words you regurgitate like some demented prayer.

 

[slick]

The two segments of Ukraine were so divided that it seems surprising that it took
two decades before Ukraine became divided;

Percentage of support for Tymoshenko in the last election when Ukraine was whole:
Western Ukraine
Lviv-------86.20%
Ternopil--88.39%
Volyn-----81.85%

Percentage of support for Yanukovich in the last election when Ukraine was whole:
Eastern Ukraine
Crimea--- 78.24
Donetsk--90.44
Luhansk- 88.96

UKRAINE - OSCE​

https://www.osce.org › files › documents

PDF
Page 33
The election was concluded in a run-off between Ms. Yulia Tymoshenko of the All-Ukrainian Union – Motherland and Mr. Viktor Yanukovych of the Party of ...

 

[slick]

Facts are facts.

Yanukovych betrayed the people of Ukraine by turning his back to agreements already made with the EU and turning back to Russia.

That is a fact.

The Ukrainian people protested.

That is a fact.

Yanukovich responded brutally cracking down on protests.

That is a fact.

The Ukrainian people protested even more fervently.

That is a fact.

Yanukovich responded with more brutality.

That is a fact.

When Yanukovich realized his brutality wouldn't win the day and the Rada prepared to impeach Yanukovich he courageously ran off to Russia.

Whether the Ukrainians of Donbass or Crimea sees it that way isn't relevant.

There are states in the US that did not agree with Biden being elected. So what?

Oh, all the Azov, Bandera, Svoboda, Nuland, neo-Nazi, McCain, US neocons, blah, blah, blah you can conjure doesn't change the facts.

They are simply words you regurgitate like some demented prayer.

I clearly explained to you that what you are saying is not factual, and you keep saying it is factual. Here’s an idea you stick to your version of the facts, I’ll stick to mine!

 

[Fledermaus]

I clearly explained to you that what you are saying is not factual, and you keep saying it is factual. Here’s an idea you stick to your version of the facts, I’ll stick to mine!

You have regurgitated the OPINIONS of others.

And you have bleated Azov, Bandera, Svoboda, Nuland, neo-Nazi, McCain, US neocons like a good Putin propagandist.

 

[georgephillip]

Yanukovych betrayed the people of Ukraine by turning his back to agreements already made with the EU and turning back to Russia.

The UKRAINIANS rose up.

Ukrainians rose up after Yanukovych ordered his police forces to violently suppress peaceful protests NOT because he refused IMF conditionalities and accepted economic aid from Russia.

In 2013 Yanukovych had declined a "partnership" offer from the EU because of astronomical financial costs imposed on Ukrainians.

Putin had tried to persuade the EU to make the economic agreement with Ukraine "tripartite" with Moscow so as not to compromise long-term trade agreements between Ukraine and Russia.

The EU told Yanukovych he had to choose between Russia and the West.

And then there's NATO...

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/four-years-of-ukraine-and-the-myths-of-maidan/

"The EU agreement—purportedly only economic and civilizational—included provisions binding the new 'partner' to NATO 'military and security' policy. (The intent was clear, with President George W. Bush having proposed to fast-track NATO membership for Ukraine in 2008, only to be vetoed by Germany and France.)"

 

[georgephillip]

MrOnline is neither a valid nor a credible source.

It is someone's blog site.

If either of those claims were true (they're not), you should find it relatively easy to refute the actual arguments being made and not their messenger.

For example:

https://mronline.org/2022/03/07/the-imf-connection-with-the-ukraine-crisis/

"Now, in the wake of the invasion by Russia, Ukraine has again approached the IMF for support; and the current IMF managing director Kristalina Georgieva has recommended to the IMF board of directors that it should provide that support.

"The precise amount of support and the purpose for which it is being asked, are still not clear; but one thing remains certain: after the current crisis comes to an end in that region, no matter what form that resolution takes, Ukraine will become a second Greece in Europe.

"In the case of Greece too, the IMF loan was much larger than is the usual practice for that organisation.

"Most of it was meant really to ensure that the European banks that had lent to Greece got back their money.

"And now Greece is caught in the vicious grip of perpetual debt."

In case you haven't noticed, the oligarchs of this world (and their political puppets) are drowning 90% of human beings in eternal debt. This is not by accident, and it's something Americans can't change by "choosing" between Republican or Democrat in the voting booth.

 

[Rogue Valley]

If either of those claims were true (they're not), you should find it relatively easy to refute the actual arguments being made and not their messenger.

I don't dance to your MrOnline blog links.

Use credible sources and then we'll talk.

 

[georgephillip]

Yanukovych betrayed the people of Ukraine by turning his back to agreements already made with the EU and turning back to Russia.

That is a fact.

Can you tell us exactly which "agreements already made with the EU" Yanukovych reneged on? Possibly you've bought into the myth that alleges Yanukovych was "pro-Kremlin" which would come as a big surprise to his US electoral adviser (Paul Manafort) who was pushing the Ukrainian president to tilt toward the West in order to expand his electoral base beyond southeastern Ukraine.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/four-years-of-ukraine-and-the-myths-of-maidan/

 

[Rogue Valley]

Can you tell us exactly which "agreements already made with the EU" Yanukovych reneged on?

Bringing the opposition into government and holding snap elections for two.

But Yanukovych didn't hand around long enough to fulfill his afternoon pledges. (documents signed by Viktor, the Opposition, reps from France and Germany, and initialed by a witness from the Kremlin).

That very night he fled Kyiv. He couldn't fit his 35 cars and 7 motorcycles into the helicopter. But he did manage to fill many suitcases with state funds.

 

[Fledermaus]

Can you tell us exactly which "agreements already made with the EU" Yanukovych reneged on? Possibly you've bought into the myth that alleges Yanukovych was "pro-Kremlin" which would come as a big surprise to his US electoral adviser (Paul Manafort) who was pushing the Ukrainian president to tilt toward the West in order to expand his electoral base beyond southeastern Ukraine.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/four-years-of-ukraine-and-the-myths-of-maidan/

You don't know?

Here.

Three seconds to look up.

The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. Ukraine's parliament had overwhelmingly approved of finalizing the Agreement with the EU,

And an electoral adviser advises someone in getting elected. It has nothing to do with his beliefs. So bringing up Manifort is irrelevant.

 

[Fledermaus]

Ukrainians rose up after Yanukovych ordered his police forces to violently suppress peaceful protests NOT because he refused IMF conditionalities and accepted economic aid from Russia.

Wrong.

WTF do you think protests are?

Rising up.

In 2013 Yanukovych had declined a "partnership" offer from the EU because of astronomical financial costs imposed on Ukrainians.

Putin had tried to persuade the EU to make the economic agreement with Ukraine "tripartite" with Moscow so as not to compromise long-term trade agreements between Ukraine and Russia.

So what?

The EU told Yanukovych he had to choose between Russia and the West.

Citation?

Oh, and the Parliament had already voiced its desire to head west.

And then there's NATO...

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/four-years-of-ukraine-and-the-myths-of-maidan/

"The EU agreement—purportedly only economic and civilizational—included provisions binding the new 'partner' to NATO 'military and security' policy. (The intent was clear, with President George W. Bush having proposed to fast-track NATO membership for Ukraine in 2008, only to be vetoed by Germany and France.)"

So what?

 

[Fledermaus]

If either of those claims were true (they're not), you should find it relatively easy to refute the actual arguments being made and not their messenger.

For example:

MRONLINE

 

[slick]

You have regurgitated the OPINIONS of others.

And you have bleated Azov, Bandera, Svoboda, Nuland, neo-Nazi, McCain, US neocons like a good Putin propagandist.

I didn’t expect such an articulate & razor sharp response
from a none expert if there ever was one.
You’re not even close to being on solid ground concede the point!

 

[Fledermaus]

I didn’t expect such an articulate & razor sharp response
from a none(sic) expert if there ever was one.
You’re not even close to being on solid ground concede the point!

Your posts do not require anything erudite.

I do not concede points to people who simply regurgitate propaganda talking points and can't accept reality.

 

[Geoist]

Sweeeeeeeet!

FRONTLINE/WORLD . Sierra Leone - Gunrunners . Ukraine: Cashing in on Illegal Arms | PBS

www.pbs.org

America’s Dangerous Track Record Arms Supplies To Ukraine

The ongoing war in Ukraine should provoke discussion about Washington's policy of exporting vast quantities of weapons to East Europe. Notwithstanding their limited financial resources

thekootneeti.in

Ignore the facts while you're at it.

Ummm, how old is that article?

 

[Geoist]

Your story link was posted 2002……..

Ah, there's my answer.

 

[georgephillip]

But Yanukovych didn't hand around long enough to fulfill his afternoon pledges. (documents signed by Viktor, the Opposition, reps from France and Germany, and initialed by a witness from the Kremlin).

Because armed Maidan protesters (neo-Nazis) began killing police on Institutskaya Street as government forces were complying with the agreement you mention by withdrawing from the center of Kyiv. Yanukovych likely felt the opposition had reneged on the recently signed agreement, and decided he would rather stay alive than stay in office. Why don't you explain how driving a corrupt, yet duly elected, president from office by killing police officers qualifies as democracy promotion?

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/59172

 

[georgephillip]

I don't dance to your MrOnline blog links.

Use credible sources and then we'll talk.

What sources on this subject do you consider credible?

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/59172

"Here I can venture a guess as to what happened that day (when, after all, none of us were privy to Yanukovych’s thought processes).

"He might have decided to flee right at that time because the Russian representative failed to put his signature next to the European ones.

"He may have interpreted Russia’s failure to sign the agreement as a signal that Russia didn’t believe the agreement would work out (which is exactly how Lukin and other Russian diplomats later explained their failure to sign the agreement).

"He thought that Russia no longer supported him in the Kyiv standoff, that Moscow had sold him out and now had its own plans unrelated to extending his presidential powers. Having lost his only external ally, Yanukovych caved in and fled."

 

[georgephillip]

And an electoral adviser advises someone in getting elected. It has nothing to do with his beliefs. So bringing up Manifort is irrelevant.

Manafort was advising Yanukovych to expand his base by appealing to voters in western Ukraine who wanted closer ties to the EU; such advice is immaterial only to illiterates.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Because armed Maidan protesters (neo-Nazis) began killing police on Institutskaya Street as government forces were complying with the agreement you mention by withdrawing from the center of Kyiv. Yanukovych likely felt the opposition had reneged on the recently signed agreement, and decided he would rather stay alive than stay in office. Why don't you explain how driving a corrupt, yet duly elected, president from office by killing police officers qualifies as democracy promotion?

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/59172

Yanukovych's brutal Berkut security squad shot to death over 100 protesters in less than a week.

You always forget that part.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Manafort was advising Yanukovych to expand his base by appealing to voters in western Ukraine who wanted closer ties to the EU; such advice is immaterial only to illiterates.

Manafort was an asset of the Russian intelligence agent Konstantin Kilimnik.

 

[Fledermaus]

Manafort was advising Yanukovych to expand his base by appealing to voters in western Ukraine who wanted closer ties to the EU;

Yes, and?

Your point?

Are you suggesting Yanukovych lied to appeal to voters in western Ukraine who wanted closer ties to the EU at Manifort's behest?

What is the point you are failing to make?

such advice is immaterial only to illiterates.

The fact I write in pretty damn good English disproves your statement.

That and your failure to make a point has no relevance to someone else's literacy.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because armed Maidan protesters (neo-Nazis) began killing police on Institutskaya Street as government forces were complying with the agreement you mention by withdrawing from the center of Kyiv. Yanukovych likely felt the opposition had reneged on the recently signed agreement, and decided he would rather stay alive than stay in office. Why don't you explain how driving a corrupt, yet duly elected, president from office by killing police officers qualifies as democracy promotion?

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/59172

What sources on this subject do you consider credible?

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/59172

"Here I can venture a guess as to what happened that day (when, after all, none of us were privy to Yanukovych’s thought processes).

"He might have decided to flee right at that time because the Russian representative failed to put his signature next to the European ones.

"He may have interpreted Russia’s failure to sign the agreement as a signal that Russia didn’t believe the agreement would work out (which is exactly how Lukin and other Russian diplomats later explained their failure to sign the agreement).

"He thought that Russia no longer supported him in the Kyiv standoff, that Moscow had sold him out and now had its own plans unrelated to extending his presidential powers. Having lost his only external ally, Yanukovych caved in and fled."

Your own links states he was planning to run away long before he did. And that he was hoping for Russian bayonets to restore order.

 

[jpn]

Outstanding interactive maps in today's NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/24/world/europe/russia-shrinking-war-ukraine.html

They give a detailed look at the battle for the rest of the Donbas, including geographical features and key rail lines.