The Uncanny Christianity of the Nazis

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

It's amazing that all these naysayers have never actually read most of his works in which he praises jesus and God.

 

[George_Washington]

I can see this will be a pointless debate with Washington, as she will merely say all my sources are wrong, and all hers are right, and there ends the debate, lol.


1. Hitler said this [ME]

2. NO HE DIDN'T! SEE! [HER]

3. My source disagrees! [Me]

4. I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR ATHIEST SOURCES! [HER]

I can post all day long, and youc an post all day long, and we have opposite sources. You say he didn't institute christian prayer, I say he did.

LOL Are you aware of the fact that I'm a MAN ?

Dude, what a cop out. I have offered you quotes from two of Germany's foremost scholars on this topic and still you refuse to acknowledge their credibility. If you want to end the debate here, fine. But you could have just been big enough to admit that you were wrong, I mean it's no big deal really.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

LOL Are you aware of the fact that I'm a MAN ?

Dude, what a cop out. I have offered you quotes from two of Germany's foremost scholars on this topic and still you refuse to acknowledge their credibility. If you want to end the debate here, fine. But you could have just been big enough to admit that you were wrong, I mean it's no big deal really.

And all of which is contradicted by my sources, one of which is second-hand like yours, and one of which is a primary document.

I am not wrong at all. I can easiliy contradict all you say, and I have. Their "authority" is no more valid than Mein Kampf or my sources "authority."

You consistantly think that 'disagreement' and attacking of the church constitutes hatred toward christianity, when I can show the exact opposite thing in hitler's private writings and public speeches. And yes, when he came to power, he did institute CHRISTIAN teachings in your school, unlike what your source says.

 

[George_Washington]

II won't speak on behalf of TU personally, but I can say that you do NOT "own" a single one of us non-believers.

It was a joke, obviously...

 

[George_Washington]

And all of which is contradicted by my sources, one of which is second-hand like yours, and one of which is a primary document.

I am not wrong at all. I can easiliy contradict all you say, and I have. Their "authority" is no more valid than Mein Kampf or my sources "authority."

You consistantly think that 'disagreement' and attacking of the church constitutes hatred toward christianity, when I can show the exact opposite thing in hitler's private writings and public speeches. And yes, when he came to power, he did institute CHRISTIAN teachings in your school, unlike what your source says.

You still haven't told me all of your sources. Are you going just by the, "Hitler Myth"? I haven't read that book but if it contradicts what I've said then cite some examples. I seriously doubt if your sources do, actually, contradict everything I've said. I think you're lying.

Even Aryan Imperium, who is an actual Nazi, said that Hitler wasn't a Christian. That should tell you something...

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

You still haven't told me all of your sources. Are you going just by the, "Hitler Myth"? I haven't read that book but if it contradicts what I've said then cite some examples. I seriously doubt if your sources do, actually, contradict everything I've said. I think you're lying.

Even Aryan Imperium, who is an actual Nazi, said that Hitler wasn't a Christian. That should tell you something...

1. My sources are directly from Hitler's personal writings, his speeches, as well as his autobiography.

2. My other sources come from Historian Ian Kershaw and his book on the Third Reich: THe Hitler Myth.

Have you actually read Mein Kampf? Do you know what it says? You do know that it is his perosnal writings, right? Have you read his speeches? Have you read his correspondances?


From the "Hitler Myth".

1. According to media sources and letters of correspondence between hitler and his officials, Christianity was quite important in the formation of the Third Reich. According to primary sources during the time, especially sources in Bavaria, Miesbacher Anzeiger wrote:

A. May [this day] be the day of the beginning of a united and individisible [...] free german people's community embracing all the well-meaning sections of the people and based on a Christian [...] social foundation.


An important thing to remember is that the Nazis were afraid of offending religious groups and leaders untill some of those leaders started to get in the way of his power in the late 30's. Much, much earlier, [Hitler] was careful nto to offend the religious sensitivities of the members of the Catholic parties and promised to uphold the position of the Churches in the State.

According to a speech and the writings of the German Minister of Education of Barvaria: [Hitler} has created a new face of Germany as the artist and master builder whom the Lord God has given us...

If you read the Hitler Myth, you will soon learn that Hitler had a problem with the Churches within germany, not because of Christianity, but because they were later a power influence. His major problem, as I mentioned earlier, was that he wanted totalitarian control. His attacks on the Church do not mean he was not or the Nazis were not Chritians. If that were the case, then no Christian who struggles to fight other Christians are "real christians," but that's a nonsensical No True Scotsman Fallacy.


Now, let us look at another source:

A. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.


Commentary:

Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.


Hitler also largely came to power via the protestants and catholics in the German Elections.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Even Aryan Imperium, who is an actual Nazi, said that Hitler wasn't a Christian. That should tell you something...

Oh yes, obviously because a neo-nazi today says so, that must mean it's obviously true. I can say communists weren't atheists, but a weird form of neogenticism religion....since I am an atheist, I should know.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Source 2. Mein Kampf


A. I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

B. I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.

At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and kept his post until his death.)

C. the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.

D.Protestantism as such is a better defender of the interests of Germanism, in so far as this is grounded in its genesis and later tradition; it fails, however, in the moment when this defense of national interests must take place in a province which is either absent from the general line of its ideological world and traditional development, or is for some reason rejected.

E. Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.

F. As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.

G. Heaven will smile on us again.

H. The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.

I. ...We must pray to the Almighty not to refuse His blessing to this change and not to abandon our people in the times to come.


There is far more if you read his public AND personal writings. He often states quite cleanly he's a christian with a long christian background.

 

[Lucidthots]

The NAZI's were not evil people.

That is a myth.

The NAZI's were no more evil than the British, or the French, or the Americans, or the Russians or the Japanese.

Or the Jews!

The truth is all governments have exterminated innocent people.

This is a horrible fact of history which we should all work to prevent.

And while it is true that The German National Gov did commit deeply evil acts, crimes against humanity....so did Stalin....so did Roosevelt and the Jews working in his administration like Stephen Weiss.

Innocent Germans, men women and children were exterminated by the Allies.

Innocent Japanese men women and children were exterminated by Roosevelt's administration who were members of the "Order of Death."

The Jewish Bolsheviks exterminated thousands if not millions under Trotsky (aka Bronstein)

All of these extermination campaigns....whether against Jews, Japanes, Germans etc were all justified by claiming it was done in the "interest of National Security."

 

[George_Washington]

1. My sources are directly from Hitler's personal writings, his speeches, as well as his autobiography.

2. My other sources come from Historian Ian Kershaw and his book on the Third Reich: THe Hitler Myth.

Ian Kershaw doesn't have nearly the credibility in this matter that Shirer and Fest do. But I'll look at your quotes and treat them fairly since I'm an open minded guy.

Have you actually read Mein Kampf? Do you know what it says? You do know that it is his perosnal writings, right? Have you read his speeches? Have you read his correspondances?

Yes. So? Your point? Mein Kampf alone isn't proof of Hitler's true nature. It was propaganda.

From the "Hitler Myth".

1. According to media sources and letters of correspondence between hitler and his officials, Christianity was quite important in the formation of the Third Reich. According to primary sources during the time, especially sources in Bavaria, Miesbacher Anzeiger wrote:

A. May [this day] be the day of the beginning of a united and individisible [...] free german people's community embracing all the well-meaning sections of the people and based on a Christian [...] social foundation.


An important thing to remember is that the Nazis were afraid of offending religious groups and leaders untill some of those leaders started to get in the way of his power in the late 30's. Much, much earlier, [Hitler] was careful nto to offend the religious sensitivities of the members of the Catholic parties and promised to uphold the position of the Churches in the State.

Look, Hitler said a lot of things in the early days to different people. In fact, Hitler lied all the time. Surely you recall how he lied to everyone after taking the Sueten Land about not taking anymore land...and about how he lied to France about peace...and how he also lied to Russia about peace. Hitler did admire the, "propaganda" aspects of Christianity but so what? He also admired the methods of the communists. Does that mean he was a communist?? No.

According to a speech and the writings of the German Minister of Education of Barvaria: [Hitler} has created a new face of Germany as the artist and master builder whom the Lord God has given us...

If you read the Hitler Myth, you will soon learn that Hitler had a problem with the Churches within germany, not because of Christianity, but because they were later a power influence. His major problem, as I mentioned earlier, was that he wanted totalitarian control. His attacks on the Church do not mean he was not or the Nazis were not Chritians. If that were the case, then no Christian who struggles to fight other Christians are "real christians," but that's a nonsensical No True Scotsman Fallacy.

If he had no problem with the Christian Church, then how do you account for Himmler and Rosenberg's thirty articles that explicity outline that annihilation of Christianity? Refer to the quote I gave from Shirer on that. Look at number 18 specifically:

18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles, and pictures of Saints.

-Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," p.240.

No real Christian would want to destroy the Bible, that makes no sense at all.

Now, let us look at another source:

A. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

This speech was just an appeal to Christians to get their votes. You have to understand that most of Germany was Christian and in order to get elected, he had to win over much of the Christian population. You simply cannot judge Hitler by his words. The flaw in that is revealed by how Hitler also quoted atheists like Nietzsche and made reference to atheistic ideals. Going by those particular speeches, I could claim Hitler was an atheist but I would be a fool to do so just on that basis. In evaluating a person's life, we must not look at words but rather, actions and philosophies. Hitler's sadism, his racial ideas, and his willingness to murder were and are simply not in line with Christian teachings.

Hitler did actually toil with the idea that Jesus wasn't a Jew for a while but then he decided that the whole of Christianity needed to be extinguished. But there again, his idea that Jesus wasn't a Jew conflicts with Christian teachings and is, in fact, an anti-Christian idea.

Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.

It's true that Luther and some other racist figures in his early life had an influence on Hitler's anti-semeticism but as he grew older, he threw away Christianity. He took Luther's idea of anti-semeticism and turned it into something totally different. He created a kind of racial biology coupled with a twisted version of darwinism.

And the fact is that Nietzsche, an atheist, had just as profound influence on Hitler's young mind as any Christian did. And also don't forget that Nietzsche also held racist ideas, despite being an atheist. For example, he once said,

"Society is not entitled to exist for its own sake but only as a substructure and scaffolding, by means of which a select race of beings may select themselves to higher beings..."

-"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" p. 100

I think you think racism is synonymous with Christianity but it really isn't.

Hitler also largely came to power via the protestants and catholics in the German Elections.

This not only proves nothing but is somewhat of an inaccurate statement.

1.) Just because Protestants and Catholics voted for Hitler doesn't mean that Hitler was a Protestant or a Catholic.

2.) When Hitler was elected to his first official position, he ran on a ticket with Hindenberg running as President. Most people voted for Hindenberg on that ticket, not Hitler. Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution had prevented Hitler from being able to win the Chancellorship through electoral votes. Therefore, the assertion that Hitler came to power through the popular vote of Christians is utterly bull crap. Hindenberg was the one that had appointed Hitler to the Chancellorship, not the German people because the Constitution didn't allow it.

3.) Recall that quote I gave from Fest about the strong support for the Nazis from the academic community. some of them were atheists.

Well, so far you've shown me nothing of substantial academic value that would contradict Fest or Shirer.

 

[Lucidthots]

Mathew 22 : 39

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Hitler was so a christian, unfortunately. And in alot of his speeches he mentions God, I think. I wouldn't know, I don't speak German.

If you don`t know why do you waste time commenting?
Speaches are by nature propaganda and are not an indication of a man`s true feelings.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

It's amazing that all these naysayers have never actually read most of his works in which he praises jesus and God.

Evidence please!

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Ian Kershaw doesn't have nearly the credibility in this matter that Shirer and Fest do. But I'll look at your quotes and treat them fairly since I'm an open minded guy.

Ok, however, I don't agree that he isn't an authority. He is an authority. He's an acclaimed historian. We also shouldn't even be arguing over "who has a bigger historical dick." That's totally irrelevant anyway.

Yes. So? Your point? Mein Kampf alone isn't proof of Hitler's true nature. It was propaganda.

My point is that Mein Kampf is to be believed, since it is the foundation behind Hitler's pratices in action as well as the entire nazi platform. There is simply no credible reason to disregard it while cherry-picking other parts of it. Mein Kampf is extremely reliable, since most of what he said corresponds to what he planned to do or did.

If you are going to claim propaganda every 5 seconds with everything I say, why the hell should I believe your guy? He was just believing "propaganda."

Look, Hitler said a lot of things in the early days to different people. In fact, Hitler lied all the time. Surely you recall how he lied to everyone after taking the Sueten Land about not taking anymore land...and about how he lied to France about peace...and how he also lied to Russia about peace. Hitler did admire the, "propaganda" aspects of Christianity but so what? He also admired the methods of the communists. Does that mean he was a communist?? No.

Ok. Let me get this straight. You will ignore the wealth of primary source documents of the time, Mein kampft, but you are fully prepared to believe whatshisface's second-hand research? Your whole counter to my primary document[/B} is....he's lying! I don't buy it.

Using that logic, I can claim everyone's lying.

My point is not that he admired it, therefore was a christian. My point was, and is, he used and taught christian principles, he curried christian favour, and he himself STATED he was a christian. YOu, on the other hand, are simply going "he's lying." You have to prove he's lying, and that you cannot do. NOthing hitler did was incompatible with what ANY other christian did in history.

Many were jew hating, murderous, warlike, pagans.

If he had no problem with the Christian Church, then how do you account for Himmler and Rosenberg's thirty articles that explicity outline that annihilation of Christianity? Refer to the quote I gave from Shirer on that. Look at number 18 specifically:

18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles, and pictures of Saints.

-Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," p.240.

No real Christian would want to destroy the Bible, that makes no sense at all.

1. First, let's break this up into two separate parts. Foremost, I will deal with the claim that no true christian will burn bibles. This is a no True Scotsman Fallacy. Look it up. "Christians" do lots of things that they shouldn't, but that doesn't make them unchristian. Burning a bible doesn't make you less of a christian than slaughtering and raping the muslim citizens of Jeruselem. You can always repent after. (Which did happen, of course). The Pope is the vicar of God.

Secondly, of course a real christian would want to destroy the Bible. This is like saying no true American would burn the American Flag. It's happened before. You have lots of CHristians that have destroyed and edited the Bible through history. There have also been examples of Christians in history who have burned bibles of various versions they disagreed with. In fact, during the protestant revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries, the Catholic Church [was known for] ignoring, opposing, hiding and even destroying the Bible in order to keep it from the people. Allegedly, copies of the Bible were chained to the walls of churches during the Middle Ages so that people could not take them home to read. Supposedly the Church during the Middle Ages also refused to translate the Bible into the various tongues of the common people, the vernacular languages, in order to further hinder personal Bible reading. Furthermore it is claimed that the Church even went as far as to burn vernacular Bibles.


Those damn Catholics! They aren't TRUE Christians, according to your absurd claim. For sources on this, reference:



[1] Warren H. Carroll, The Building of Christendom (Christendom College Press, 1987) pp. 359,371,385.
[2] The Jerome Biblical Commentary (Prentice-Hall, 1968) Vol. II, pp. 586-588.
[3] Henry G. Graham, Where We Got The Bible (TAN Books, 1977) p. 99.

For a more recent example of Christians burning Bibles, check out this source:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/481.htm

WASHINGTON, D.C. (BWA) - Bishop Malkhaz Songulashvili, Pastor of the Central Baptist Church, Tbilisi, Georgia, and President of the Evangelical Baptist Church there, told an audience at the Baptist World Alliance on Friday, September 20, that the burning of the Bibles at the Baptist warehouse last February 3 by a group of people led by a dissident Orthodox priest

Sooo, your claim is false, first of all. And don't even tell me they weren't real Christians. If that's true, then neither are you.

2. Why would Hitler's Henchmen say they are against Christianity? Do you think that everything EVERY henchman in Hitler's government had the same exact opinion and policy? You would like to think that, but that's simply untrue. In fact, after the 1933 election, people remained faithful to Hitler, yet for some reason, they were quite dissident when it came to various of his "underlings" as newspapers of the time called them. Hitler's popularitying going into 1934 remained fairly high, while they outright complained about the stances of some of his henchmen, according to "The Hitler Myth."

Finally, Nazis are contradictory. Contradiction doesn't mean they aren't what they say they are. It just means they are stupid and pandering to all kinds of groups. For example, I could really be a nazi, yet, in the intersts of political gain, argue against them.

This speech was just an appeal to Christians to get their votes. You have to understand that most of Germany was Christian and in order to get elected, he had to win over much of the Christian population.

Prove he was lying. If you give me a statement in which he says he hates christianity, I will give you an equal statement by him which claims he loves it. Going by your systemof merely saying "he's lying" is absurd, since I can do that whenever you can do that. That gets nowhere.

You simply cannot judge Hitler by his words.

This is funny, since you seem to be gobbling up everything his henchmen say that's against Christianity. Using your own logic, if you cannot trust him when he says he is Christian, then you also cannot logically trust him if ever Don't cherry-pick. Either believe what he says or don't.

The flaw in that is revealed by how Hitler also quoted atheists like Nietzsche and made reference to atheistic ideals.

Again, I can easily contradict you by appealing to Mein Kampf as well as various personal letters of his in which he (not facing an audience at all), praises Jesus and God. Hitler wasn't an Atheist of any sorts. For example, take a look here from Mein Kampf: (No reason to classify it as propaganda any more than any other autobiography).

1. I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me.

He thanks Heaven. Clearly, he's not an Atheist, since he believes in Heaven.

2. I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. [...] these occasions [...] made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party [...]. I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.

As you can clearly see, Hitler is in utter love with a major head of the Christian Social Movement in Germany as well as in Austria. This is Christian movement and man from which Hitler OBTAINED the majority of his antisemitic arguments. He didn't wake up one day and go---I hate jews! There is no credible reason to say he's lying. He got his jew-bashing from Christian Socalist groups who were prominent during the time. He was mesmerized by them, and he favoured them in his government. They "transformed" his thought.

In the words of Mr. Wong, who runs an excellent page on religion:

"4 (Hitler was inspired to become a radical anti-Semite by the Viennese Christian Social movement, whose attitudes are almost identical to the far-right American Christian fundamentalist movement today).

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Going by those particular speeches, I could claim Hitler was an atheist but I would be a fool to do so just on that basis. In evaluating a person's life, we must not look at words but rather, actions and philosophies. Hitler's sadism, his racial ideas, and his willingness to murder were and are simply not in line with Christian teachings.

No, you couldn't claim he's an atheist only by showing him quoting Neitcsche. That's merely guilt by association. THat's hardly the same as him claiming "I am an Atheist." If he said that, and there was no evidence to the contrary saying "I am not an atheist." I would believe him. There is no evidence whatsoever to contradict his statement "I am a Christian."

Hitler did actually toil with the idea that Jesus wasn't a Jew for a while but then he decided that the whole of Christianity needed to be extinguished. But there again, his idea that Jesus wasn't a Jew conflicts with Christian teachings and is, in fact, an anti-Christian idea.

That's not true. The fact that someone does not believe Jesus was a Jew does not make them non-christian. In fact, dissent does NOT make you unchristian at all. It merely means you aren't dogmatic, but I don't think that will make an impact on ardent Christian thought. During the reformation and revolution, dissenters who strayed away from "Canon" teachings were thought evil, vile and pagans. That was BS then, and it's simply BS now.

It's true that Luther and some other racist figures in his early life had an influence on Hitler's anti-semeticism but as he grew older, he threw away Christianity. He took Luther's idea of anti-semeticism and turned it into something totally different. He created a kind of racial biology coupled with a twisted version of darwinism.

Yes. He got much of his original ideology from Luther, and it stayed with him long, long into his life. As I mentioned above, even when he was older, he met with and conversed significantly with Christian groups, including the Good Doctor. I think you are trying to imply that, because he melded Christianity with other aspects, and because he altered it, he wasn't a Christian. Well, that's not true. In that case, no Protestant is a "true" Christian either. You aren't a real Christian, since modern Christianity is far, far from what original Christianity was. If Jesus saw what it was today? He would be like Jefferson taking the subway to the Capitol--perplexed.

And the fact is that Nietzsche, an atheist, had just as profound influence on Hitler's young mind as any Christian did. And also don't forget that Nietzsche also held racist ideas, despite being an atheist. For example, he once said

You have a point---except Hitler, as a youth, was a Christian. This is a fact. It's also a fact that he claimed he was a Christian well later in life. Actually, Nietche was not anti-semetic at all, if that is what you mean by 'racist.' He decried anti-semitism.

"Society is not entitled to exist for its own sake but only as a substructure and scaffolding, by means of which a select race of beings may select themselves to higher beings..."
-"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" p. 100
I think you think racism is synonymous with Christianity but it really isn't.

Ok. What Race? The Human race? Do you understand Nietche's ethics? It's widely misunderstood as being the Nazi ethics, but it's not. The Uebermensch idea was stolen, but that was not what Nietsche had it mind. Plus, the fact that he took elements from various philosohpies does NOT mean he was still not a Christian.

This not only proves nothing but is somewhat of an inaccurate statement.

1.) Just because Protestants and Catholics voted for Hitler doesn't mean that Hitler was a Protestant or a Catholic.

True, and I didn't intend for it to be. It only proves that Christians, including the Christian Socialists of the time, were very sympathetic to a racist, anti-semetic scumbag. Everything he dished out they swallowed and loved, en masse.

2.) When Hitler was elected to his first official position, he ran on a ticket with Hindenberg running as President. Most people voted for Hindenberg on that ticket, not Hitler. Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution had prevented Hitler from being able to win the Chancellorship through electoral votes. Therefore, the assertion that Hitler came to power through the popular vote of Christians is utterly bull crap. Hindenberg was the one that had appointed Hitler to the Chancellorship, not the German people because the Constitution didn't allow it.

Hitler was appointed to the Chancellorship, however, elections took place after Hindenberge was already dead. There was more than one election. The Nazis were elected into power by large numbers, including 87.4 per cent of the plebiscite in 33-34. Hitler, however, was not the Nazi Party. THere were elections---you know...where you...elect people? Did you not learn of the elections? It's far from bullcrap that the Nazis came to power via the Christians. YOu don't have to vote for Hitler to vote for Nazi Ideals. I am talking about Reichstag elections.

According to Dr. Renate Wind, Professor of THEOLOGY, writes of Boenhoffer, a priest of lived during the time and DIED trying to convince the masses that the Nazis were evil, but did so unsuccessfully. According to private letters, Boenhoffer revealed this about the "christian churches" in early 32 and 33.

In 1933 the Protestant Church in Germany greeted the brutal exclusion of entire social groups as the “restoration of order.“ Further, Under the slogan “better Brown than Red“, representatives of both catholic and protestant churches welcomed the destruction of the labor movement and also the persecution of all those who had always been a thorn in the flesh especially of nationally minded Protestants: democrats, liberals, pacifists, socialists. They included also the critical Jewish intelligentsia, indeed all of “Jewry. In fact they stated, “If the state exercises its office against those who undermine the foundation of state order, above all against those who with corrosive and mean words destroy marriage, cast scorn on faith and besmirch death for the Fatherland, then may it exercise its office in the name of God.“ Then, Three weeks later Bonhoeffer spoke before a group of Berlin pastors on “The Church and the Jewish Question“. This talk was to be the first and only reaction from within the Protestant church as early as 1933

Amazing...no one but he spoke up, and the nazis weren't even violent against the population! The Population was fanantic about him--in utter adulation! Really integrate the meaning of the above into your mind, and you will find how absurd the claim is that Christians didn't overwhelmingly support the Nazis.

Well, so far you've shown me nothing of substantial academic value that would contradict Fest or Shirer.

Like Hell I haven't. THat's not even a fair comment. I have not given you "off-the-wall" sources. I have given you reliable historians and primary sources, as well as various positions of Theologicans OF the time. I have given you Hitler's own words. YOu have merely given me some second-hand research by some Historian I have never even heard of. You merely choose to ignore it my sources as automatically false and parrot what your favourite historians say. Face it. NOthing I say will ever convince you, notwithstanding the fact that I have contradicted and provided credible evidence for every claim I made, and in doing so, I have refuted every single one of your absurd claims, especially the claim that the Christians didn't support hitler overwhelmingly. That's total balderdash. YOu haven't shown me anything of academic value that says I am wrong, except appealing to the authority of your personal favourute authors, while ignoring every other source, author, and primary document, claiming not to find anything academic. The best you can do is claim "He's lying." If so, I can claim He's lying when he's saying how bad the Christians are. That leaves us at a stand-still. In that case, I can easily say that Christians were STILL bad, since Nazi Ideology was so compatible with it that no one made a fuss LONG LONG before any danger to them was present.


THere is also MUCH, MUCH more informaiton regarding the massive church support of Hitler, according to the Theogian mentioned.

 

[Lucidthots]

Mathew 22 : 39

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Yeah.........this is really...... "evil?"

 

[Lucidthots]

THere is also MUCH, MUCH more informaiton regarding the massive church support of Hitler.........

So?

People loved Hitler.

I admired him too, as did much of Germany.

Honestly...

If the NAZI's had not been caught doing what the Americans and Russians were also doing (exterminating people) we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Yeah.........this is really...... "evil?"

Not everything is evil; when you take it too seriously, it becomes evil. Literality breeds evil.

The problem is..the CHURCH and congregations were applauding Hitler's injustice, and they voluntarily helped him do it. That's bullshit.

 

[Lucidthots]

Not everything is evil; when you take it too seriously, it becomes evil. Literality breeds evil.

The problem is..the CHURCH and congregations were applauding Hitler's injustice, and they voluntarily helped him do it. That's bullshit.

Really.....the National Party was no different than any other government in its crimes, which had nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[Lucidthots]

The problem is..the CHURCH and congregations were applauding Hitler's injustice, and they voluntarily helped him do it. That's bullshit.

Helped him do what?......rebuild Germany into the most prosperous and most technologically advanced civilization on earth?........what is the problem?

 

[Donkey1499]

Helped him do what?......rebuild Germany into the most prosperous and most technologically advanced civilization on earth?........what is the problem?

Damn, for being the greatest country on earth, Germany did get their asses kicked by the Cowboys, Canucks, Brits, and Ruskies. Who were all at least one step behind.

 

[Lucidthots]

Damn, for being the greatest country on earth, Germany did get their asses kicked by the Cowboys, Canucks, Brits, and Ruskies. Who were all at least one step behind.

Yes...it took all of those countries all fighting simultaneously against little Germany to knock her down.

And the Banks and the industrialists made billions off of it.

Really though......I do not find any pleasure in celebrating the extermination of German people.

 

[Donkey1499]

Yes...it took all of those countries all fighting simultaneously against little Germany to knock her down.

And the Banks and the industrialists made billions off of it.

Really though......I do not find any pleasure in celebrating the extermination of German people.

But Germany also had Japan, the Swiss, and Italy. The US was fighting a two front war as well (Against all the Axis Powers).

And I can see that your "conspiracy gears" are cranking up again. We didn't slaughter Germans. You seriously need to quit smoking the pot, dude.

 

[Lucidthots]

But Germany also had Japan, the Swiss, and Italy. The US was fighting a two front war as well (Against all the Axis Powers).

And I can see that your "conspiracy gears" are cranking up again. We didn't slaughter Germans. You seriously need to quit smoking the pot, dude.

I am not saying I liked the Totalitsrianism of the NAZI party.

All I am saying is that their was nothing "uniquely evil" about NAZI Germany.

We are supposed to think that their is....but really, Americans and Russians tortured and exterminated people too.

It is evil when anyone does it....not just German people.

As for conspiracy.....WWI and WWII were created to make money for banks and industrialists.

 

[Lucidthots]

We didn't slaughter Germans....

How can I have a discussion with someone who is this naive?