The Unborn Child

[1069]

And really, that "Asians eat live monkey brains" scenario was rather far-fetched, and smacked of racism and xenophobia.
What Asians eat live monkey brains? And how do they eat them if the monkey's still alive? :doh

 

[mac]

And really, that "Asians eat live monkey brains" scenario was rather far-fetched, and smacked of racism and xenophobia.
What Asians eat live monkey brains? And how do they eat them if the monkey's still alive? :doh

How provincial.

Monkey brains (cuisine) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Straight Dope: In Asia, do people scoop the brains out of a monkey's skull and eat them?

 

[mac]

How provincial.

Monkey brains (cuisine) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Straight Dope: In Asia, do people scoop the brains out of a monkey's skull and eat them?

To be honest, I'm fairly well traveled in Asia, and have never seen it happen in person.

 

[mac]

It's quite blatantly obvious that I do, since you don't seem to get it, even after I've spelled it out for you.

I'm rubber, you're glue.

Come on, Dude, it seems you're the only one that didn't get the jist.

 

[MaggieD]

And really, that "Asians eat live monkey brains" scenario was rather far-fetched, and smacked of racism and xenophobia.
What Asians eat live monkey brains? And how do they eat them if the monkey's still alive? :doh

Indonesia, as an example:

Some establishments serve macaque at a special table with a hole in the center. The monkey is tied up and the top of its skull cut open with one slice of a sharp knife. The animal, still alive, is placed under the table so its head protrudes like a bowl. Arrack, a powerful native alcohol, is sometimes poured into the skull and mixed with the brain.

Monkey Brains on the Menu -- Copyright The L.A. Times

I have a close friend who was an expat in the Middle East. In order not to insult his hosts, he tasted. He said it was the most disgusting evening of his life.

 

[MaggieD]

And she was doing so by proposing that we eat them, which, since they are human, would be cannibalism. I really shouldn't have to explain these things.

They are human???? They're zifs/zefs/zygots/fetuses. Now they're human beings?????????

 

[molten_dragon]

They are human???? They're zifs/zefs/zygots/fetuses. Now they're human beings?????????

I've never said otherwise. They are certainly human. What they are not (and why it's okay to abort them) is a person. I'm not sure why so many pro-lifers don't seem to get the distinction between those two things.

'Human' is a biological term. It means something that belongs to the species homo sapiens. A human fetus fits these criteria.

'Person' is a legal term. It means an entity that is entitled to the full protection of the US Constitution.

 

[molten_dragon]

I'm rubber, you're glue.

Come on, Dude, it seems you're the only one that didn't get the jist.

I got it just fine. She was advocating cannibalism to make a point. I realize that that advocacy was being used sarcastically.

My point is that once you bring cannibalism into an argument about abortion you've kind of lost all credibility. It's simply ridiculous.

I'm not sure why you can't seem to get that.

 

[mac]

I got it just fine. She was advocating cannibalism to make a point. I realize that that advocacy was being used sarcastically.

My point is that once you bring cannibalism into an argument about abortion you've kind of lost all credibility. It's simply ridiculous.

I'm not sure why you can't seem to get that.

Do you know what advocating means? She hasn't lost any credibility with me, in fact she's one of the the few pro-choicers here that haven't. When liberals stop thinking they make the rules on debate etiquette, we'd probably have a much more enjoyable debate.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I'm pro choice and argue pro choice often yet have never taken issue over semantics.

In fact - when the debates go that way (as they're most assured to do) I get really annoyed.
Calling the unborn a baby/child/zygote/embryo/fetus . . . whatever - something different makes no difference to me.

I use to use certain terms JUST to piss people off - it was a little humerus to have such power over someone. I believe that one women (years ago, not even on this forum) got *very* upset because I kept referring to later-term-abortion methods as 'killing a baby'
Now - with her raising so much cain over it do you *think* that just made it more personally satisfying to use the term more often and run it into the ground? You betcha. I swear I think she put me on ignore.
She also had issue with the term 'whore' for prostitute - so I used that often, too.

So be careful semanticites - you just might be opening yourself up to more headaches by taking very strong stances with terminology.

Now I consider what I use to do as being 'bitchy' and don't do it, now - but sometimes you can't help it. You cannot please every semanticite - someone will always have issues with what you say and how you say it.

 

[OKgrannie]

They are human???? They're zifs/zefs/zygots/fetuses. Now they're human beings?????????

They can be "human" (adjective) WITHOUT being "human beings" (noun). Just like your big toe, a strand of hair, or fingernail clippings to use common comparisons.

 

[molten_dragon]

Do you know what advocating means? She hasn't lost any credibility with me, in fact she's one of the the few pro-choicers here that haven't. When liberals stop thinking they make the rules on debate etiquette, we'd probably have a much more enjoyable debate.

Yes, I certainly do, but since I doubt you're going to believe me without some sort of proof, let's put the definition out there for everyone to see.

ad·vo·cate
–verb (used with object)
1.
to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly:

Now let's take a look at what MaggieD originally said.

So let's start eating fetus's alive. Why not? They aren't human. They aren't children. They aren't babies. Just another kind of protein. Since it's legal to abort them and throw them in a garbage bucket at 24 weeks when they're 8" long and have a little face and wiggle and squirm when poked and prodded. Let's make them a food source. What a waste to throw them in a bucket and dispose of them as hazardous waste. Maybe dog food?

There's ample precedence for this, actually. In Asia, they eat live monkey brains. They eat live duck embryos. Maybe human fetus's could become the next delicacy. Okay, so maybe it'd be a problem for some? How about shipping them to other countries? It has no rights. Just a zef, after all. Such a waste in a hungry world, yes?

That certainly sounds to me like she is writing in favor of eating human fetuses. She is supporting/urging the act of cannibalism with her arguments, and since she posted it for everyone to see, she is recommending it publicly. It sounds to me like her post fits the definition of 'advocating' to a T.

I recognize that she is doing so sarcastically to make a point, and I acknowledged that in an earlier post. I'm sure that in real life, she isn't actually in favor of eating human fetuses. However, as far as that post goes, she was most certainly advocating cannibalism.

I understand where she was trying to go with her argument, it wasn't exactly subtle. The manner in which she made her point, however, causes her to lose any minute amount of credibility she might have had in this argument.

 

[mac]

That certainly sounds to me like she is writing in favor of eating human fetuses.

She certainly and obviously was not. She was ridiculing the concept.

I understand where she was trying to go with her argument, it wasn't exactly subtle. The manner in which she made her point, however, causes her to lose any minute amount of credibility she might have had in this argument.

Only with you, which I imagine she can live with. I'm just assuming though.

 

[MaggieD]

I understand where she was trying to go with her argument, it wasn't exactly subtle. The manner in which she made her point, however, causes her to lose any minute amount of credibility she might have had in this argument.

So I've lost credibility in an argument with you about whether or not an in-utero 8-month-old baby is a human being? You say no? I say yes? Why don't I much care??

Mac!! AGAIN we agree!! I can live with that. ;-)

OK Grannie said: They can be "human" (adjective) WITHOUT being "human beings" (noun). Just like your big toe, a strand of hair, or fingernail clippings to use common comparisons.

What poster said was, "They are human." Big toes aren't human. Neither are fingernail clippings or strands of hair.

I'm pro choice and argue pro choice often yet have never taken issue over semantics.

In fact - when the debates go that way (as they're most assured to do) I get really annoyed.
Calling the unborn a baby/child/zygote/embryo/fetus . . . whatever - something different makes no difference to me.

I use to use certain terms JUST to piss people off - it was a little humerus to have such power over someone. I believe that one women (years ago, not even on this forum) got *very* upset because I kept referring to later-term-abortion methods as 'killing a baby'
Now - with her raising so much cain over it do you *think* that just made it more personally satisfying to use the term more often and run it into the ground? You betcha. I swear I think she put me on ignore.
She also had issue with the term 'whore' for prostitute - so I used that often, too.

So be careful semanticites - you just might be opening yourself up to more headaches by taking very strong stances with terminology.

Now I consider what I use to do as being 'bitchy' and don't do it, now - but sometimes you can't help it. You cannot please every semanticite - someone will always have issues with what you say and how you say it.

You know, that's exactly why I sought to drive this home. It makes me nutz when people use terms life zif/zygot and all the rest. In my mind, it is a ProChoicer's way of denigrating the ProLifer. Your post is the voice of reason, though, to both sides of the argument. I'll try to keep it in mind. And if "semanticite" doesn't accurately describe almost every poster on this forum, I don't know what does! Nice.

 

[MaggieD]

Aside -- You know how sometimes you see on TV that the authorities have confiscated a laptop and used searches to prove someone has done something wrong? Well, since being on this forum, I've thought I should have a "self-destruct button" for just such occasions. :rofl

 

[Barbbtx]

They can be "human" (adjective) WITHOUT being "human beings" (noun). Just like your big toe, a strand of hair, or fingernail clippings to use common comparisons.

If a person chews/eats his fingernails, is he a cannibal?

 

[molten_dragon]

She certainly and obviously was not. She was ridiculing the concept.

If you say so mac. I'm done discussing this with you, since it's blatantly obvious that no matter how many times I explain it to you, it's not going to penetrate that thick skull of yours.

 

[molten_dragon]

So I've lost credibility in an argument with you about whether or not an in-utero 8-month-old baby is a human being?

Um, no, that's not what we were arguing about at all. We were arguing about the use of the term unborn child.

You say no?

No, I don't say no. I've stated repeatedly that I think fetuses at any stage of development are human, and that I oppose elective abortion past the point of viability. Learn to read and get your facts straight before you post.

I say yes?

Why are you asking me? Shouldn't you know what your own opinion on the subject is?

Why don't I much care??

Perhaps because (as far as I can tell) you have no clue what's even being discussed in this thread. You apparently don't even know what your own position is let alone that of anyone else.

 

[mac]

If you say so mac. I'm done discussing this with you, since it's blatantly obvious that no matter how many times I explain it to you, it's not going to penetrate that thick skull of yours.

You run off on a tangent and make an argument everyone can see right through, and I'm thick skulled? Whatev, homeslice.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You know what I called all of my children before they were born?

An "it" and sometimes "the baby"

For no reason other than we didn't know if "it" was a boy or a girl - nor did we have any names picked out. And I wasn't going to get into the habit of calling the baby "Baby B" or "Little B" or something like that because I *know* that once you start calling a child at any stage of development *something* - that turns into a nickname and it sticks. "It" was the reference until "it" was known and named.

I betya someone reads that and their skin crawls

 

[mac]

You know what I called all of my children before they were born?

An "it" and sometimes "the baby"

For no reason other than we didn't know if "it" was a boy or a girl - nor did we have any names picked out. And I wasn't going to get into the habit of calling the baby "Baby B" or "Little B" or something like that because I *know* that once you start calling a child at any stage of development *something* - that turns into a nickname and it sticks. "It" was the reference until "it" was known and named.

I betya someone reads that and their skin crawls

You're a monster!

Just kidding, it's pretty common at least until the sex of the baby is determined. "It" is just a function of our language rather than any indication of our thoughts or feelings. We don't have a word for an unknown in regards to gender. I suppose we could say "Pat" until we know what the sex is.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You're a monster!

Just kidding, it's pretty common at least until the sex of the baby is determined. "It" is just a function of our language rather than any indication of our thoughts or feelings. We don't have a word for an unknown in regards to gender. I suppose we could say "Pat" until we know what the sex is.

Yeah - isn't that interesting? We don't have a term for an unidentified gender - eventhough the state of being unidentified is quite common.

Fascinating. . . what a flaw

Reminds me of Star Trek - an episode where an alien species had 3 genders, and the 3rd was essential to the reproductive process - but was kept more like a pet.

 

[Bodi]

You're right, no one likes the idea of killing a child or baby. But when most people hear the words "child" or "baby", they immediately envision a BORN "child" or "baby". And that is why pro-lifers are INSISTING upon calling a zef a "child" or "baby." If it doesn't matter to your cause, why don't you use the accurate terms?

Most people have no problems with a 4 month deadline. I would prefer pushing it to 20 weeks, since the brain development at that time is not such that I would consider the zef a person.

I have never EVER met a woman, including my ex-wife, that did not call her unborn child her "baby". My baby this. My baby that. My baby just kicked. My baby is rotating. This is what our baby looks like (in sonogram) (sp?)

and the accurate term is this:

baby   /ˈbeɪbi/ Show Spelled [bey-bee] Show IPA noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by·ing.
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.

Baby | Define Baby at Dictionary.com

 

[Johnny]

They are babies. Abortion is a sad thing. Unfortunately some of the alternatives are worse. Unfit parent keeps a baby that they neglect or treat badly. Or they get put up for adoption but don't get adopted and spend their childhood in the broken foster care system that doesn't give a damn about them.

The thing that posses me off to no end is we have AMERICAN babies and kids that need homes but instead people will adopt from overseas.

 

[Bodi]

They are babies. Abortion is a sad thing. Unfortunately some of the alternatives are worse. Unfit parent keeps a baby that they neglect or treat badly. Or they get put up for adoption but don't get adopted and spend their childhood in the broken foster care system that doesn't give a damn about them.

The thing that posses me off to no end is we have AMERICAN babies and kids that need homes but instead people will adopt from overseas.

That is more about the adopting parent wanting to look good or seen to be caring about the world more than wanting a baby... Angelina Jolie, for instance, but in their defense, many times it is easier to adopt a baby from overseas. I know a British couple that adopted two Philippino boys since it was much easier than going through the British system. The red tape in some of our contries is truly ridiculous.