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The Unborn Child

mac

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In recent discussions in other threads, many on the pro-choice side have objected to the use of the term "Unborn Child" as intellectual dishonesty. So, I did a little research on where the term is commonly used to show it's validity in addition to the mere definition of the word child, which clearly lists human fetus as one of the definitions in every dictionary I've been able to find.

These links are only meant to show how common the term is.

YouTube - To my unborn child - Tupac

Shooting victim loses unborn child | WTNH.com Connecticut

A Love Letter To My Unborn Child, Children Poems

Is It Ok For My Unborn Baby To Have Hiccups So Often?

Woman Sentenced In Crash That Killed Unborn Baby - wcco.com

Kaddish for an unborn child - Google Books

Here's a really good one: Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

How Smoking Affects Your Unborn Child

There are a couple of thousand references to unborn child that do not directly result from abortion arguments, these are only a few.

Now for definitions:

Child | Define Child at Dictionary.com
Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
child: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
child - Definition of child at YourDictionary.com

Since human fetus is clearly one of the definitions in every reference of child, and the term is used quite broadly in many contexts throughout the English language, what is the real reason that Pro-Choicers object so strongly to it's use in abortion arguments? Is this intellectual dishonesty? I think so.
 

MaggieD

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In recent discussions in other threads, many on the pro-choice side have objected to the use of the term "Unborn Child" as intellectual dishonesty. So, I did a little research on where the term is commonly used to show it's validity in addition to the mere definition of the word child, which clearly lists human fetus as one of the definitions in every dictionary I've been able to find.

These links are only meant to show how common the term is.

YouTube - To my unborn child - Tupac

Shooting victim loses unborn child | WTNH.com Connecticut

A Love Letter To My Unborn Child, Children Poems

Is It Ok For My Unborn Baby To Have Hiccups So Often?

Woman Sentenced In Crash That Killed Unborn Baby - wcco.com

Kaddish for an unborn child - Google Books

Here's a really good one: Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

How Smoking Affects Your Unborn Child

There are a couple of thousand references to unborn child that do not directly result from abortion arguments, these are only a few.

Now for definitions:

Child | Define Child at Dictionary.com
Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
child: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
child - Definition of child at YourDictionary.com

Since human fetus is clearly one of the definitions in every reference of child, and the term is used quite broadly in many contexts throughout the English language, what is the real reason that Pro-Choicers object so strongly to it's use in abortion arguments? Is this intellectual dishonesty? I think so.
Yes. It absolutely is intellectual dishonesty -- and shows kinks in armor, imo. What DIFFERENCE should it make to anyone who one chooses to use the word "child?" It is as if by claiming it's wrong to do so, ProChoicers bolster their own consciences. If a mom loses her baby in its 5th-6th-whatever month, she's lost her child. She lost "the baby." It is absolutely assinine to wordsmith away a bit of humanity and call out a ProLifer on this issue.

Great post, Mac. Game-Set-Match on this issue.
 

OKgrannie

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In recent discussions in other threads, many on the pro-choice side have objected to the use of the term "Unborn Child" as intellectual dishonesty. So, I did a little research on where the term is commonly used to show it's validity in addition to the mere definition of the word child, which clearly lists human fetus as one of the definitions in every dictionary I've been able to find.

These links are only meant to show how common the term is.

YouTube - To my unborn child - Tupac

Shooting victim loses unborn child | WTNH.com Connecticut

A Love Letter To My Unborn Child, Children Poems

Is It Ok For My Unborn Baby To Have Hiccups So Often?

Woman Sentenced In Crash That Killed Unborn Baby - wcco.com

Kaddish for an unborn child - Google Books

Here's a really good one: Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

How Smoking Affects Your Unborn Child

There are a couple of thousand references to unborn child that do not directly result from abortion arguments, these are only a few.

Now for definitions:

Child | Define Child at Dictionary.com
Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
child: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
child - Definition of child at YourDictionary.com

Since human fetus is clearly one of the definitions in every reference of child, and the term is used quite broadly in many contexts throughout the English language, what is the real reason that Pro-Choicers object so strongly to it's use in abortion arguments? Is this intellectual dishonesty? I think so.
Child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. "Child" may also describe a relationship with a parent or authority figure, or signify group membership in a clan, tribe, or religion; it can also signify being strongly affected by a specific time, place, or circumstance, as in "a child of nature" or "a child of the Sixties."[1]

Legal, biological, and social definitions

Population aged under 15 years in 2005The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier."[2] Ratified by 192 of 194 member countries. Biologically, a child is anyone between birth and puberty or in the developmental stage of childhood, between infancy and adulthood. Children generally have less rights than adults and are classed as not able to make serious decisions, and legally must always be under the care of a responsible adult.
 

MaggieD

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Child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. "Child" may also describe a relationship with a parent or authority figure, or signify group membership in a clan, tribe, or religion; it can also signify being strongly affected by a specific time, place, or circumstance, as in "a child of nature" or "a child of the Sixties."[1]

Legal, biological, and social definitions

Population aged under 15 years in 2005The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier."[2] Ratified by 192 of 194 member countries. Biologically, a child is anyone between birth and puberty or in the developmental stage of childhood, between infancy and adulthood. Children generally have less rights than adults and are classed as not able to make serious decisions, and legally must always be under the care of a responsible adult.
And to your sister who miscarried in her 6th month, you would say, "I'm so sorry your lost your fetus." Give me a break. And why on EARTH does it matter???
 
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MaggieD

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And to your sister who miscarried in her 6th month, you would say, "I'm so sorry your lost your fetus." Give me a break. And why on EARTH does it matter???
I'll answer my own question. It MATTERS to ProChoice people because even they do not like the idea of killing a child. Or a baby. And they shouldn't. "Keep emotion out of it 'cause I really can't stand the thought."

Just to reiterate my position. I'm ProChoice but would like to see more restrictions put on a timeline. Four months is plenty of time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep a baby. Medical reasons? Birth defects? Another kettle of fish. But, generally, I think I can live with four months -- even though babies won't.
 

majora$$hole

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I'll answer my own question. It MATTERS to ProChoice people because even they do not like the idea of killing a child. Or a baby. And they shouldn't. "Keep emotion out of it 'cause I really can't stand the thought."

Just to reiterate my position. I'm ProChoice but would like to see more restrictions put on a timeline. Four months is plenty of time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep a baby. Medical reasons? Birth defects? Another kettle of fish. But, generally, I think I can live with four months -- even though babies won't.
i say brain starting to function, whenever that is, seeing as that is the factor when we decide when someone dies the law calls it brain death.
 

OKgrannie

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I'll answer my own question. It MATTERS to ProChoice people because even they do not like the idea of killing a child. Or a baby. And they shouldn't. "Keep emotion out of it 'cause I really can't stand the thought."

Just to reiterate my position. I'm ProChoice but would like to see more restrictions put on a timeline. Four months is plenty of time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep a baby. Medical reasons? Birth defects? Another kettle of fish. But, generally, I think I can live with four months -- even though babies won't.
You're right, no one likes the idea of killing a child or baby. But when most people hear the words "child" or "baby", they immediately envision a BORN "child" or "baby". And that is why pro-lifers are INSISTING upon calling a zef a "child" or "baby." If it doesn't matter to your cause, why don't you use the accurate terms?

Most people have no problems with a 4 month deadline. I would prefer pushing it to 20 weeks, since the brain development at that time is not such that I would consider the zef a person.
 

mac

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Child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. "Child" may also describe a relationship with a parent or authority figure, or signify group membership in a clan, tribe, or religion; it can also signify being strongly affected by a specific time, place, or circumstance, as in "a child of nature" or "a child of the Sixties."[1]

Legal, biological, and social definitions

Population aged under 15 years in 2005The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier."[2] Ratified by 192 of 194 member countries. Biologically, a child is anyone between birth and puberty or in the developmental stage of childhood, between infancy and adulthood. Children generally have less rights than adults and are classed as not able to make serious decisions, and legally must always be under the care of a responsible adult.
Wikipedia Founder Discourages Academic Use of His Creation - Wired Campus - The Chronicle of Higher Education

Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia compiled by a distributed network of volunteers, has often come under attack by academics as being shoddy and full of inaccuracies. Even Wikipedia’s founder, Jimmy Wales, says he wants to get the message out to college students that they shouldn’t use it for class projects or serious research.
You gotta do better than that, grannie.


Child | Define Child at Dictionary.com
Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
child: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
child - Definition of child at YourDictionary.com
 
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mac

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You're right, no one likes the idea of killing a child or baby. But when most people hear the words "child" or "baby", they immediately envision a BORN "child" or "baby". And that is why pro-lifers are INSISTING upon calling a zef a "child" or "baby." If it doesn't matter to your cause, why don't you use the accurate terms?

Most people have no problems with a 4 month deadline. I would prefer pushing it to 20 weeks, since the brain development at that time is not such that I would consider the zef a person.
That's why they say unborn child when refering to one still in utero. Simple way to clear up the confusion....
 

mac

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In American law, by the way:

`Sec. 1841. Protection of unborn children
`(a)(1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.
 

mac

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Hoerner vs. Berntinato, 171 A.2d 140 (N.J. 1961); see also Raleigh Fitkin-Paul Morgan Memorial Hospital 201 A.2d 537 (N.J. 1964) (ordering blood transfusion in the event it was necessary to save the woman's life or the life of her unborn child, over religious objections

In a 1961 New Jersey case,2 decided prior to Roe vs. Wade the custody of an unborn child was awarded to the county welfare department after the child's birth. In this case, the court held that the parents, in refusing, on religious grounds, to consent to a blood transfusion for the child immediately after its birth, where expert medical opinion and the history of the wife's past pregnancies indicated that a blood transfusion would be essential to save the infant's life, were neglecting to provide the child with proper protection. The court held that it had jurisdiction to award custody of the child for purposes of administering a blood transfusion immediately after birth. The court stated, "It is now settled that an unborn child's right to life and health is entitled to legal protection even if it is not viable.
 

mac

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Amazingly, all the usual suspects, save one, have suddenly become mute on the subject.....
 

molten_dragon

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In recent discussions in other threads, many on the pro-choice side have objected to the use of the term "Unborn Child" as intellectual dishonesty. So, I did a little research on where the term is commonly used to show it's validity in addition to the mere definition of the word child, which clearly lists human fetus as one of the definitions in every dictionary I've been able to find.

These links are only meant to show how common the term is.

YouTube - To my unborn child - Tupac

Shooting victim loses unborn child | WTNH.com Connecticut

A Love Letter To My Unborn Child, Children Poems

Is It Ok For My Unborn Baby To Have Hiccups So Often?

Woman Sentenced In Crash That Killed Unborn Baby - wcco.com

Kaddish for an unborn child - Google Books

Here's a really good one: Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

How Smoking Affects Your Unborn Child

There are a couple of thousand references to unborn child that do not directly result from abortion arguments, these are only a few.

Now for definitions:

Child | Define Child at Dictionary.com
Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
child: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
child - Definition of child at YourDictionary.com

Since human fetus is clearly one of the definitions in every reference of child, and the term is used quite broadly in many contexts throughout the English language, what is the real reason that Pro-Choicers object so strongly to it's use in abortion arguments? Is this intellectual dishonesty? I think so.
I object to the use of the term because it muddies the waters of what is already a muddy enough debate. Abortion is a heavily emotionally charged subject, and appeals to emotion like this don't help the situation at all.
 

mac

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I object to the use of the term because it muddies the waters of what is already a muddy enough debate. Abortion is a heavily emotionally charged subject, and appeals to emotion like this don't help the situation at all.
It is a commonly used term both in and out of the abortion debate and is used in law. The protest against it as "invalid", "dishonest", "intellectually dishonest", is an intellectually dishonest attempt at controlling the debate in favor of pro-choice advocates by diminishing the impact of abortion.
 

CriticalThought

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Given that the common phrase for a pregnant women use to be, "I am with child", I can't imagine anyone actually thought this was a semantic battle worth having. It is even used in the Bible.
 

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Given that the common phrase for a pregnant women use to be, "I am with child", I can't imagine anyone actually thought this was a semantic battle worth having. It is even used in the Bible.
In that time it was just another way of saying "I'm going to have a baby." Future tense, get it?
 

OKgrannie

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It is a commonly used term both in and out of the abortion debate and is used in law. The protest against it as "invalid", "dishonest", "intellectually dishonest", is an intellectually dishonest attempt at controlling the debate in favor of pro-choice advocates by diminishing the impact of abortion.
Hogwash!! It is an attempt to keep the debate honest by using accurate terms instead of emotionally laden manipulative terms.
 

MaggieD

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I object to the use of the term because it muddies the waters of what is already a muddy enough debate. Abortion is a heavily emotionally charged subject, and appeals to emotion like this don't help the situation at all.
Why is it a muddy-enough debate? Because we are ending life. It should be muddy. It should be emotionally charged. It shouldn't be a cut-and-dried process. It should be tough. REAL tough.
 

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Why is it a muddy-enough debate? Because we are ending life. It should be muddy. It should be emotionally charged. It shouldn't be a cut-and-dried process. It should be tough. REAL tough.
No, it should not be "muddy".
The purpose of language is to communicate thoughts, ideas, and information with as much precision and clarity as possible. At least, where I come from.
Calling things by the wrong names in an attempt to muddle communication and understanding because you feel "it should be muddy" is just nuts.
 

digsbe

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Regardless of what we want to label it. We can't deny it is an unborn human being.
 

CriticalThought

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Regardless of what we want to label it. We can't deny it is an unborn human being.
I don't think the debate has ever been on its humanity, it has been on its personhood. A person is a legal concept both permitting rights to and imposing duties on one by law. In the vernacular, people refer to persons as human beings, but in the legal sense, a person has certain rights and duties. Can the state grant rights and impose duties on the unborn? Nothing in our Constitution says they can. Let's assume we change that and we grant citizenship to an unborn child, and then their parents move to France and raise the child there. Would that child still be entitled to all the rights of a natural born American citizen? What if we extend Constitutional protection to the unborn and an illegal immigrant residing in the United States has an abortion. Is that unborn child entitled to Constitutional protection? There are a lot of questions outside of abortion that need to be answered when you start trying to extend Constitutional protections to the unborn.
 

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It is a commonly used term both in and out of the abortion debate and is used in law. The protest against it as "invalid", "dishonest", "intellectually dishonest", is an intellectually dishonest attempt at controlling the debate in favor of pro-choice advocates by diminishing the impact of abortion.
I could just as easily accuse pro-life advocates of controlling the debate to overstate the impact of abortion, but I won't.

The biggest problem I have with the term 'unborn child' is that it implies something that isn't true (namely that a ZEF is equivalent to a born child). I recognize that it's a commonly accepted term, and I have no problem with its use in most circumstances. In this kind of debate though, it muddies the waters and gets people arguing over semantics rather than whatever they were arguing about in the first part.
 

mac

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Hogwash!! It is an attempt to keep the debate honest by using accurate terms instead of emotionally laden manipulative terms.
Hogwash, my tuckus! If you entered any other debate and told the opponent, we'll talk, but you can't use any words or phrases that are particularly difficult for me ot overcome.....how many would you be debating with?

The term is legitimate, accurate, and honest. It's used everywhere, including law. Choicers need to face reality.
 
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