The Talmud: What it is and what it isn't!

[Medusa]

Did you?? Did you really read something form a Jewish source?? No, you did not. There have been lies about the Talmud long before there was an internet... for 100's of years. IF you can't respect others people religion, don't expect them to respect yours.

:doh I only respect holy books ,not hadiths or other books like talmud,I respect torah and bible too.of course I read these books long before google was invented and know where zionism takes it source from too!!!!!

your talmud ,insults me for not being a jew and you want me to respect man made racist teachings.

Qoran agrees jews were chosen people because it is not man made.

 

[Sherman123]

Talmud is man made unlike god inspired Torah.every argument is invalid,talmud is not different from so called hadiths in islam

First of all that isn't the point. It's manmade obviously but it purports to record and discuss, directly, both oral law and principles transmitted by Moses at Mount Sinai. Furthermore most Muslims would disagree with your point regarding the Hadiths FYI.

 

[Medusa]

First of all that isn't the point. It's manmade obviously but it purports to record and discuss, directly, both oral law and principles transmitted by Moses at Mount Sinai. Furthermore most Muslims would disagree with your point regarding the Hadiths FYI.

the truth never changes no matter how many people deny it.it is a well known fact that ancient rabbis used torah for their own benefits

 

[Sherman123]

Qoran is not man made ,but talmud is man made like hadiths in islam.Qoran and talmud can not be compared

I read the holy books before internet was invented.now tell me is it ok to cheat non jews ? or killing them ?


'
Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: "Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave."

these words can be approved ?isnt it racist?

They are part of the birkhot ha-shahar, the morning blessings and are three parts of a twelve part recitation. The offending lines in particular are:

1. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile.

2. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave.

3. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman/Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for having made me according to your will.

The first is traditionally explained as being thankful because a Jew is obligated to perform far more mitzvot than a gentile. Instead of the seven laws of Noah, there are the 613 Mitzvot and the entirety of Halackha that Jews have the 'joy' of receiving and bending to.

The second one is rather obvious as it hearkens back to Egypt and the Exodus.

The third one is split into two portions. The first is said by men, the second by women. This is related to the same point made with regard to gentiles. In Judaism men are obligated to perform more mitzvot than women, whereas women are exempted from many of these commandments.

 

[Sherman123]

the truth never changes no matter how many people deny it.it is a well known fact that ancient rabbis used torah for their own benefits

Feel free to make your argument then.

 

[Medusa]

They are part of the birkhot ha-shahar, the morning blessings and are three parts of a twelve part recitation. The offending lines in particular are:

1. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile.

2. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave.

3. Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman/Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for having made me according to your will.

The first is traditionally explained as being thankful because a Jew is obligated to perform far more mitzvot than a gentile. Instead of the seven laws of Noah, there are the 613 Mitzvot and the entirety of Halackha that Jews have the 'joy' of receiving and bending to.

The second one is rather obvious as it hearkens back to Egypt and the Exodus.

The third one is split into two portions. The first is said by men, the second by women. This is related to the same point made with regard to gentiles. In Judaism men are obligated to perform more mitzvot than women, whereas women are exempted from many of these commandments.

thanks for explanation

 

[Sherman123]

I thought this was a funny and interesting article and couldn't think of a better place to park it then here: How the Talmud Became a Best-Seller in South Korea - The New Yorker

"In 2011, the South Korean Ambassador to Israel at the time, Young-sam Ma, was interviewed on the Israeli public-television show “Culture Today.” “I wanted to show you this,” he told the host, straying briefly from the topic at hand, a Korean film showing in Tel Aviv. It was a white paperback book with “Talmud” written in Korean and English on the cover, along with a cartoon sketch of a Biblical character with a robe and staff. “Each Korean family has at least one copy of the Talmud. Korean mothers want to know how so many Jewish people became geniuses.” Looking up at the surprised host, he added, “Twenty-three per cent of Nobel Prize winners are Jewish people. Korean women want to know the secret. They found the secret in this book.”

 

[calm]

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".

For Christians, .....

The Old Covenant which the Jewish Folks are all clamoring about today to justify their geography became obsolete and rendered dead with the pronouncement of the New Testament saying: with “A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.” [NASB When He said, "A new {covenant,}" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.] Hebrews 8:13

"Judaized Christians, or Christian Zionists, are fond of turning the discipline of Bible study on its head by allowing the Old Testament to interpret and to clarify the New Testament when, in fact, the proper method of Christian Bible study is to do the opposite: allow the New Testament to shed light on and interpret the Old Testament."
"Thus these “Christians”, rather than following the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, which is found in the New Testament, will force the words of Christ and the Christian New Testament to comply with the Old Testament, especially regarding Israel."
--A. J. MacDonald Jr., The 100 Year-Old Duping of American Evangelical Christianity – Christian Zionism, October 04, 2011--

And this is why many (not all) Jewish Believers dislike Christian Theology and why many Christians are being physically abused on the streets in Bethlehem

Israeli lawmaker tears up “abominable” New Testament, throws it in trash
July 17, 2012
Israeli lawmaker tears up “abominable” New Testament, throws it in trash | The Ugly Truth

Gopstein: Christians Not Welcome in Jerusalem
An Israeli Rabbi said, Wednesday, that Christians are not welcome in Jerusalem, and that he does not mind burning mosques and churches.
January 01, 2016
» Gopstein: Christians Not Welcome in JerusalemIMEMC

Jewish Extremists’ Attacks Rattle Christians in Holy Land
Assaults on churches by right-wing Jews, a new phenomenon, raise concern about movement’s increasingly aggressive tactics.
By Andrew Lawler
December 24, 2015
Jewish Extremists? Attacks Rattle Christians in Holy Land

United Against Spitting
Father Samuel Aghoyan, a senior Armenian Orthodox cleric in Jerusalem's Old City, told the JPost “that he's been spat at by young Haredi (God fearing religious Jews) and national Orthodox Jews ‘about 15 to 20 times’ in the past decade”. Father Aghoyan added, "Every single priest in this church has been spat on. It happens day and night."
Similarly Father Athanasius, a Texas-born Franciscan monk who heads the Christian Information Centre in Jerusalem’s Old City, said he's been spat at by Orthodox Jews "about 15 times in the last six months".
Jewish spitting is not exactly breaking News. I myself have explored the issue more than once. The Israeli professor Israel Shahak commented on Jewish hatred towards Christianity and its symbolism, suggesting that “dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism.” According to Shahak, “spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews.”
By Gilad Atzmon
November 30, 2009
United Against Spitting by Gilad Atzmon — Gilad Atzmon

Mouths filled with hatred
By Larry Derfner
November 26, 2009
Mouths filled with hatred - Magazine - Jerusalem Post

Calm

 

[RAMOSS]

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".

F

Uh. No. The Talmud is not the "Old Testament" at all None of the books in the Jewish scriptures in the Talmud.. but the talmud discusses them, and examines them to see how they relate to what was then modern day living.

 

[Excon]

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".

Maybe you meant "Tanakh"?

Tanakh

... is the canonical collection of Jewish texts, which is also a textual source for the Christian Old Testament.​

 

[Chagos]

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".........................

You could hardly have gotten that more wrong.

Seeing how Ramoss has already addressed it, I won't dwell further on this other than to ask you whether you actually bother to educate yourself on what you're about to post.

Before posting it.

With the rest of your rant I won't bother.

 

[Masterhawk]

I'm guessing that the torah contains Genesis- Deuteronomy while the talmund contains the rest of the OT

 

[Chagos]

I'm guessing that the torah contains Genesis- Deuteronomy while the talmund contains the rest of the OT

Nice guess but some way off.

The Talmud is a compendium of Jewish law(s), doctrines, rabbinical teachings and discourses etc.

It references (of course) the Torah vastly but does not contain "the rest" of it.

Also one shouldn't confuse Torah and OT even when it comes to the 5 books. Similarity notwithstanding the order of arrangement alone is different.

 

[RAMOSS]

I'm guessing that the torah contains Genesis- Deuteronomy while the talmund contains the rest of the OT

No, while the torah does contain first 5 books, the Talmud is a set of commentaries and discussions written down between 200 ce and 500 ce. There are actually two Talmuds.. the one most people are familiar with is the Babylonian Talmud. It basically looks at the Tanakh and discusses how it is valid in those times.

The Jerusalem talmud was written down shortly after the destruction of the Temple. It describes the rituals that the priestly class performed in the Temple, and was written down by a priest who wanted to make sure that if/when the temple get rebuilt, the traditions to run the temple were not lost in time. Since, 2000 years later, there still is no temple, it is mainly of historical interest (except for that small minority that want to rebuild the temple.)

 

[calm]

The Jewish Talmud claims that Abraham was 90 years old when “the Lord appeared to Abram”. What nationality or religion was Abraham naming for himself before that time? Obviously Abraham was not a Jew when God first spoke to him. So, when God intervened with Abraham, what was Abraham's disposition of faith/belief?

Calm

 

[RAMOSS]

The Jewish Talmud claims that Abraham was 90 years old when “the Lord appeared to Abram”. What nationality or religion was Abraham naming for himself before that time? Obviously Abraham was not a Jew when God first spoke to him. So, when God intervened with Abraham, what was Abraham's disposition of faith/belief?

Calm

The stories had it he was from the city of Ur, and there are childrens stories on how his father was an idol maker. So, that woudl make him a follower of the Urgartic religion. The urgartic pantheon has El and the King of Gods, or 'Elohim', and yahwey was one of El's sons. Yahwey's consort in that religion was Asherera. There are original clay tablet found in Ur that was the Urgartic bible, and many of the passages and hymns of the Urgartic religion made it into the psalms and proverbs .. (translated and sometimes mistranslated).

 

[calm]

The stories had it he was from the city of Ur, and there are childrens stories on how his father was an idol maker. So, that woudl make him a follower of the Urgartic religion. The urgartic pantheon has El and the King of Gods, or 'Elohim', and yahwey was one of El's sons. Yahwey's consort in that religion was Asherera. There are original clay tablet found in Ur that was the Urgartic bible, and many of the passages and hymns of the Urgartic religion made it into the psalms and proverbs .. (translated and sometimes mistranslated).

So, apart from "Childrens Stories" ....

It is known that Abraham was not born as a ‘Jew’; nor was there such a thing as a ‘Jewish people’ prior to when “the Lord appeared to Abram”.

Look at Joshua 24:2 where it clearly states the following:

“Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, [even] Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”.

The persons mentioned in this Old Testament passage were born in a pagan culture and served Mesopotamian gods.

The application of the title of "the father of a mighty multitude" to Abraham was already bestowed successively upon Adam and Noah which then correctly leads us to conclude that Abraham bears similar resemblance to Noah as Noah bore to Adam.

The singular item which distinguished Abraham from those others around him at the time was that he proclaimed that there was only one God. God did not create a new human species which He called a ‘Jew’.

No, God only introduced a new belief system; namely: “The Lord God is one” and those who followed after it became known as ‘Jews’. When Abraham declared this 'new belief', he was then called a Hebrew or a Jew. It was not his body that changed, not his DNA, just his belief system. After all, everyone is a descendent of Adam and Eve whether they be Jew or Gentile.

-----

Am I correct thus far?

Calm

 

[RAMOSS]

So, apart from "Childrens Stories" ....

It is known that Abraham was not born as a ‘Jew’; nor was there such a thing as a ‘Jewish people’ prior to when “the Lord appeared to Abram”.

Look at Joshua 24:2 where it clearly states the following:

“Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, [even] Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”.

The persons mentioned in this Old Testament passage were born in a pagan culture and served Mesopotamian gods.

The application of the title of "the father of a mighty multitude" to Abraham was already bestowed successively upon Adam and Noah which then correctly leads us to conclude that Abraham bears similar resemblance to Noah as Noah bore to Adam.

The singular item which distinguished Abraham from those others around him at the time was that he proclaimed that there was only one God. God did not create a new human species which He called a ‘Jew’.

No, God only introduced a new belief system; namely: “The Lord God is one” and those who followed after it became known as ‘Jews’. When Abraham declared this 'new belief', he was then called a Hebrew or a Jew. It was not his body that changed, not his DNA, just his belief system. After all, everyone is a descendent of Adam and Eve whether they be Jew or Gentile.

-----

Am I correct thus far?

Calm

Do you have a point??

 

[calm]

Do you have a point??

Yeh! I have a point.

But I am trying to give you some background to make certain that you recognize where I am coming from.

There is little use if you are not a religious scholar of sorts because I would lose you with biblical terms.

So, am I correct thus far?

If not, why not?

I figured you to be a religious scholar of sorts when reading your earlier comments.

**** It would be easier to follow our conversation is you would not use full Quotes unless necessary. Just shorten the quote so I am notified.

Calm

 

[RAMOSS]

Yeh! I have a point.

But I am trying to give you some background to make certain that you recognize where I am coming from.

There is little use if you are not a religious scholar of sorts because I would lose you with biblical terms.

Calm

In other words, you don't have a point at all, except bigotry.

 

[calm]

In other words, you don't have a point at all, except bigotry.

What on earth are you talking about?

I am attempting to show the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament for a start anyways.

Did I lose you?

What did I say that was untrue or offended you so intensely?

Calm

 

[Chagos]

I am attempting to show the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament for a start anyways.

The thread topic is about neither. It's also not about the third option of the connection.

Did I lose you?

Not at all :roll: but that's not the topic either.

 

[calm]

The thread topic is about neither.

The title of the thread is ....

The Talmud: What it is and what it isn't!

The claim was that the Talmud includes the Old Testament.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...d-and-isnt-post1065918103.html#post1065918103

And, I was on topic.

Calm

 

[Chagos]

The title of the thread is ....

The Talmud: What it is and what it isn't!

correct!

The claim was that the Talmud includes the Old Testament.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...d-and-isnt-post1065918103.html#post1065918103

if any claim made in the course of a thread's running were eligible to change the original topic, we'd have the likes of you determining what any OP is about whenever it pleases you, wouldn't we? Well, fortunately (and thanks to whoever) we don't have that.

Besides which, the post you linked to made no claim at all, it expressed a guess.

And, I was on topic.

Nope and before you argue that any further, read above and understand it.

 

[calm]

@ Chagos: You keep policing the boards .... Whatever turns your crank.

Calm