• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The State of Texas v. Jesus Christ

j brown's body

"A Soros-backed animal"
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
54,754
Reaction score
51,644
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
"Texas’s refusal to allow a pastor to pray while holding a dying man’s hand is an offense to basic Christian values. ...Texas would permit Ramirez his pastor but draw the line at the minister laying hands on the man or praying aloud over him as the state kills him because, it argues, it has “a compelling interest in maintaining an orderly, safe, and effective process when carrying out an irrevocable, and emotionally charged, procedure.” A pastor praying aloud, holding a dying man’s hand, would bring too much flesh, too much humanity, into the thing. Execution theater is all about maintaining the illusion of mechanism.

...“The state of Texas is wrong,” says Russell Moore, the director of Christianity Today’s Public Theology Project and a longtime Christian ethicist with special expertise in Baptist and other American Low Church traditions. “The Book of James calls upon Christians … to lay hands on those who are sick, and quite often those who are dying … to be with them to help them to pray—which is one of the things that their pastors do, is to help people to pray in moments in which it is very difficult to pray. And the execution chamber would certainly be one of those moments.” In that sense, Texas’s limitations seem as much a restriction on the pastor’s religious practice as the inmate’s. I asked Moore if the prayer has to be audible, in his tradition, since the state has disputed as much.

Not that Texas seeks to ban such things, only to deny them to the condemned, leaving room solely for what the state would have the law consider satisfactory Christian practice. And there Texas would betray the faith, whittling it into something so distant from its original shape as to render it barely recognizable. Whatever this Christian religion was meant to be when it was first formed, a luxury for the sinless and pure it certainly was not.

Link

Brunig makes an excellent point. State-sanctioned killing relies on painting the accused as something less than human. It allows us, as a society and the execution to follow through with it with a clear conscience. How is that poor, God-fearing executioner supposed to feel if he's pulling the switch on someone being prayed over - a fellow Christian, a fellow human being? It can't be good.
 
"Texas’s refusal to allow a pastor to pray while holding a dying man’s hand is an offense to basic Christian values. ...Texas would permit Ramirez his pastor but draw the line at the minister laying hands on the man or praying aloud over him as the state kills him because, it argues, it has “a compelling interest in maintaining an orderly, safe, and effective process when carrying out an irrevocable, and emotionally charged, procedure.” A pastor praying aloud, holding a dying man’s hand, would bring too much flesh, too much humanity, into the thing. Execution theater is all about maintaining the illusion of mechanism.

...“The state of Texas is wrong,” says Russell Moore, the director of Christianity Today’s Public Theology Project and a longtime Christian ethicist with special expertise in Baptist and other American Low Church traditions. “The Book of James calls upon Christians … to lay hands on those who are sick, and quite often those who are dying … to be with them to help them to pray—which is one of the things that their pastors do, is to help people to pray in moments in which it is very difficult to pray. And the execution chamber would certainly be one of those moments.” In that sense, Texas’s limitations seem as much a restriction on the pastor’s religious practice as the inmate’s. I asked Moore if the prayer has to be audible, in his tradition, since the state has disputed as much.


Not that Texas seeks to ban such things, only to deny them to the condemned, leaving room solely for what the state would have the law consider satisfactory Christian practice. And there Texas would betray the faith, whittling it into something so distant from its original shape as to render it barely recognizable. Whatever this Christian religion was meant to be when it was first formed, a luxury for the sinless and pure it certainly was not.

Link

Brunig makes an excellent point. State-sanctioned killing relies on painting the accused as something less than human. It allows us, as a society and the execution to follow through with it with a clear conscience. How is that poor, God-fearing executioner supposed to feel if he's pulling the switch on someone being prayed over - a fellow Christian, a fellow human being? It can't be good.
There are many moral and ethical concerns associated with the death penalty. That is for sure.
 
This is certainly problematic and I can certainly see how this could "escalate" into a slippery-slope moving forward.
 
"Texas’s refusal to allow a pastor to pray while holding a dying man’s hand is an offense to basic Christian values. ...Texas would permit Ramirez his pastor but draw the line at the minister laying hands on the man or praying aloud over him as the state kills him because, it argues, it has “a compelling interest in maintaining an orderly, safe, and effective process when carrying out an irrevocable, and emotionally charged, procedure.” A pastor praying aloud, holding a dying man’s hand, would bring too much flesh, too much humanity, into the thing. Execution theater is all about maintaining the illusion of mechanism.

...“The state of Texas is wrong,” says Russell Moore, the director of Christianity Today’s Public Theology Project and a longtime Christian ethicist with special expertise in Baptist and other American Low Church traditions. “The Book of James calls upon Christians … to lay hands on those who are sick, and quite often those who are dying … to be with them to help them to pray—which is one of the things that their pastors do, is to help people to pray in moments in which it is very difficult to pray. And the execution chamber would certainly be one of those moments.” In that sense, Texas’s limitations seem as much a restriction on the pastor’s religious practice as the inmate’s. I asked Moore if the prayer has to be audible, in his tradition, since the state has disputed as much.


Not that Texas seeks to ban such things, only to deny them to the condemned, leaving room solely for what the state would have the law consider satisfactory Christian practice. And there Texas would betray the faith, whittling it into something so distant from its original shape as to render it barely recognizable. Whatever this Christian religion was meant to be when it was first formed, a luxury for the sinless and pure it certainly was not.

Link

Brunig makes an excellent point. State-sanctioned killing relies on painting the accused as something less than human. It allows us, as a society and the execution to follow through with it with a clear conscience. How is that poor, God-fearing executioner supposed to feel if he's pulling the switch on someone being prayed over - a fellow Christian, a fellow human being? It can't be good.
There is a difference in rights available when you are a prisoner. The govt has rights to influence the time, place, and manner of the exercise of religion. Preventing someone from touching a prisoner is not limited to the practice of religion.

Having said that, it seems clear to me that the death penalty is a clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Get rid of it.
 
Has the potential to create some interesting discussion among those who support the death penalty while at the same time adamantly declare the 1A as sacrosanct.
 
"Texas’s refusal to allow a pastor to pray while holding a dying man’s hand is an offense to basic Christian values. ...Texas would permit Ramirez his pastor but draw the line at the minister laying hands on the man or praying aloud over him as the state kills him because, it argues, it has “a compelling interest in maintaining an orderly, safe, and effective process when carrying out an irrevocable, and emotionally charged, procedure.” A pastor praying aloud, holding a dying man’s hand, would bring too much flesh, too much humanity, into the thing. Execution theater is all about maintaining the illusion of mechanism.

...“The state of Texas is wrong,” says Russell Moore, the director of Christianity Today’s Public Theology Project and a longtime Christian ethicist with special expertise in Baptist and other American Low Church traditions. “The Book of James calls upon Christians … to lay hands on those who are sick, and quite often those who are dying … to be with them to help them to pray—which is one of the things that their pastors do, is to help people to pray in moments in which it is very difficult to pray. And the execution chamber would certainly be one of those moments.” In that sense, Texas’s limitations seem as much a restriction on the pastor’s religious practice as the inmate’s. I asked Moore if the prayer has to be audible, in his tradition, since the state has disputed as much.


Not that Texas seeks to ban such things, only to deny them to the condemned, leaving room solely for what the state would have the law consider satisfactory Christian practice. And there Texas would betray the faith, whittling it into something so distant from its original shape as to render it barely recognizable. Whatever this Christian religion was meant to be when it was first formed, a luxury for the sinless and pure it certainly was not.

Link

Brunig makes an excellent point. State-sanctioned killing relies on painting the accused as something less than human. It allows us, as a society and the execution to follow through with it with a clear conscience. How is that poor, God-fearing executioner supposed to feel if he's pulling the switch on someone being prayed over - a fellow Christian, a fellow human being? It can't be good.
There is no mandate in Christianity for a condemned man to die as he chooses. You don’t even believe in Christianity so can the sanctimony
 
There is a difference in rights available when you are a prisoner. The govt has rights to influence the time, place, and manner of the exercise of religion. Preventing someone from touching a prisoner is not limited to the practice of religion.

Having said that, it seems clear to me that the death penalty is a clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Get rid of it.

Wasn't the right to influence the time, place, and manner of the exercise of religion kind of stripped from government when the Supreme Court decided the state could not stop worship services in their effort to control the spread of Covid?
 
There is a difference in rights available when you are a prisoner. The govt has rights to influence the time, place, and manner of the exercise of religion. Preventing someone from touching a prisoner is not limited to the practice of religion.

Having said that, it seems clear to me that the death penalty is a clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Get rid of it.
Really? The constitution explicitly authorizes execution. The death penalty is not a violation of the eighth amendment.
 
Even Jesus received comfort while on the cross.
 
Not in a manner dictated by him.
First of all this is untrue, because Jesus said no the first time it was offered, so it was on his terms when he did receive it.

Second of all, this is a moot point because the "dictated" argument doesn't matter as much as the spiritual significance.

Third of all, why do you call yourself a Christian and deny someone the comfort of a pastor?

Fourth of all, this is a violation of the first and eighth amendments.
 
First of all this is untrue, because Jesus said no the first time it was offered, so it was on his terms when he did receive it.

Second of all, this is a moot point because the "dictated" argument doesn't matter as much as the spiritual significance.

Third of all, why do you call yourself a Christian and deny someone the comfort of a pastor?
I don’t know. Why didn’t this super duper devout Christian give his victim the comfort of a pastor?
 
I don’t know. Why didn’t this super duper devout Christian give his victim the comfort of a pastor?
That would be between him and God. I don't know this person's story, but its common for people to convert after a tragic moment.
 
That would be between him and God. I don't know this person's story, but its common for people to convert after a tragic moment.
Good for him. But he still needs to face his lawfully prescribed punishment, and he doesn’t get to dictate those terms
 
Not in a manner dictated by him.
The prisoner didn't dictate anything during the execution. He requested a priest be there, holding his hand. The priest apparently agreed. The state is dictating here. So in a state that puts so much effort into bringing God into every part of a citizen's life- to include conception- it does seem the point for Texas is to keep someone they kill a step or two below any other human being... ✌️
 

"Judge not, that ye be not judged."​

I’ve never murdered someone, so feel free to judge me on that sin.

This the one verse that ignorant people memorize to try to justify their position when there is no defense
 
The prisoner didn't dictate anything during the execution. He requested a priest be there, holding his hand. The priest apparently agreed. The state is dictating here. So in a state that puts so much effort into bringing God into every part of a citizen's life- to include conception- it does seem the point for Texas is to keep someone they kill a step or two below any other human being... ✌️
And his specific request was denied because it’s not In keeping with either law or procedure.
 
Here is a great Death Penalty Documentary from multiple perspectives, victim families, perp's family, etc. It's called the witnesses to an execution.

 
Wasn't the right to influence the time, place, and manner of the exercise of religion kind of stripped from government when the Supreme Court decided the state could not stop worship services in their effort to control the spread of Covid?
No, as a matter of fact, I'd say that decision is an excellent example of how far from stare decisis this court is. The decision denied CA some aspects of their restrictions, but allowed others (no singing or chanting). SCOTUS is attempting to add theocratic laws to the Constitution.
 
Really? The constitution explicitly authorizes execution. The death penalty is not a violation of the eighth amendment.
Please source the Constitutional basis, I didn't see it.
 
And his specific request was denied because it’s not In keeping with either law or procedure
So you have the law or procedure in writing. It seemed an opinion, not law... :unsure:

On the Judge not thing.... it is the one verse defenseless positions tend to ignore while judging others... ✌️
 
There is no mandate in Christianity for a condemned man to die as he chooses.
You don’t even believe in Christianity so can the sanctimony
2021-09-26_100237.jpg
 
No, as a matter of fact, I'd say that decision is an excellent example of how far from stare decisis this court is. The decision denied CA some aspects of their restrictions, but allowed others (no singing or chanting). SCOTUS is attempting to add theocratic laws to the Constitution.
It's rather telling, I think, that they stayed this decision, but wouldn't allow a Muslim to have an Imam at his execution on very similar facts. It's a "Christian" thing, I suppose.
 
Back
Top Bottom