The Roots of Rape

[AGENT J]

What are you calling "facts"? The opinion of some pinheaded academic or some such?

"im" not calling anything a fact, im pointing out the fact that your statement is factual wrong and severely uneducated :shrug:

please tell us what all rape is about again, was it procreation? I cant remember

 

[LowDown]

I think I get what you are trying to say. That raping is going to happen because it is innate to some male humans. So what about child molestation and murder. Those behaviors occur repeatedly as well are we going to accept those behaviors as innate to some male humans also? It seems as if you are

1. blaming the victim
2. asking that everyone accommodate destructive behavior rather than expect the men to better themselves and control themselves

Also, should I then be responsible for not getting raped in my office or at the gym or in a club? Your logic has to be consistent and you can not apply this kind of thinking to other situations that are similar.

You have so completely internalized the idea that anything that comes from human beings is basically good that it's impossible for you to see the truth of things. Once again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it. Again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it. And again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it.

 

[LowDown]

"im" not calling anything a fact, im pointing out the fact that your statement is factual wrong and severely uneducated :shrug:

please tell us what all rape is about again, was it procreation? I cant remember

Ok, so I haven't been properly indoctrinated in liberal BS. I'll cop to that.

 

[LowDown]

That would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that so many rapists have trouble getting it up? It can certainly be a mating strategy but it mostly isn't. The rape of women and girls by the conquering army is well-known world history, just as the rape of women in the Sudan is now. It's an act of war not sex. Sex and reproduction are certainly in there but they are hardly the only reasons men rape, which is often no more than showing the lesser who is the greater.

You are forgetting the large number of bastard children who are born several months after the conquering armies come through. Do you imagine that this is just coincidental?

 

[LowDown]

Ah rape, they name is male, as a show of sexual prowess, sexual dominance, and sexual aggression and frustration, as well as part of the Spoils of War, and also for reproduction by those who cannot find, for whatever reason, a willing partner but feel compelled to attempt to reproduce anyway.

The vast majority of rapes could be solved in short order, not by segregating the sexes for men would still rape men and boys, but by getting rid of men. All in favor, don't raise your penis.

If you prefer the women to fight our wars then I'm all for it.

 

[LowDown]

Really? Then why do some people decide not to have children at all?

Because of socialization. It's the same reason that the vast majority of men don't rape anyone.

 

[TiredOfLife]

You are forgetting the large number of bastard children who are born several months after the conquering armies come through. Do you imagine that this is just coincidental?

No, and if you'd read my post you would see that.

 

[TiredOfLife]

If you prefer the women to fight our wars then I'm all for it.

When it's only women there won't be many, if any.

 

[Gathomas88]

Really? Then why do some people decide not to have children at all?

To be fair, it can be pretty safely said that just about everyone in our society - with the exception of those who choose to go the route of total celibacy - subconsciously does still comply with our species' biological drive to procreate whether they're actively aware of it or not.

Sex makes babies, people. That's literally the only reason it exists.

This isn't exactly a MENSA level concept.

 

[TiredOfLife]

To be fair, it can be pretty safely said that just about everyone in our society - with the exception of those who choose to go the route of total celibacy - subconsciously does still comply with our species' biological drive to procreate whether they're actively aware of it or not.

Sex makes babies, people. That's literally the only reason it exists.

This isn't exactly a MENSA level concept.

Actually, reproduction rides on sex. Sex is for bonding and pleasure, and it just happens to make a baby from time to time. It's why most sex, even unprotected sex, leads to nothing but a good time. It's why people who know they can't reproduce have sex, and the same with masturbation. We enjoy our genitals and reproduction caught a free ride.

 

[Gathomas88]

Actually, reproduction rides on sex. Sex is for bonding and pleasure, and it just happens to make a baby from time to time. It's why most sex, even unprotected sex, leads to nothing but a good time. It's why people who know they can't reproduce have sex, and the same with masturbation. We enjoy our genitals and reproduction caught a free ride.

No, it is the other way around. Sex exists explicitly for the purpose of reproduction and in order to ensure the survival of the species.

The chemically induced "pleasure" sexual activity results in is nature's way of making human beings more inclined to do what is necessary, not the final goal of the act itself. Masturbation and sex for pleasure's sake alone are unintended side effects of this fact.

 

[Morality Games]

Liberals spend most of their time denying and being blind to human nature, so it's no surprise that time and time again they fail at trying to make human beings better. They don't see the real problem, so they fail. They have solutions that don't address the real problem, so they fail.

Each of us is born with a biological imperative to procreate. It affects us deeply and in ways we can only barely comprehend. It is the pressure of a hundred thousand generations of successful parents, our ancestors, pressing down on us to go and do the same as they did, birth and raise children, continue the bloodline. It is set deeply within us, and it will not be repressed.

The idea that this can be changed with some politically correct groupthink is, in a word, idiotic.

But see the underlying human nature for what it is and a different set of possible solutions to the problem of rape in the military suggests itself. Like, for example, that it was insane to mix highly testosteronized men with women in the armed forces and expect a different outcome from the one we are getting, and maybe we ought to rethink the whole thing.

But this would be anathema to liberals, so the problem is just going to continue. Perhaps it will disrupt the military to the point where it is no longer effective. I'm pretty sure that all the time and energy spent addressing this is detracting from the main job of the military, which is to defend us and win wars.

The end result of this logic is that soldiers can't be trusted with any kind of access to the public, at least during their tenure in the military.

Rape occurs in the military for the same reason why pedophillia occurs in the Catholic Church, because it was allowed. If you don't punish crimes then people no longer fear or respect them because they possess no real force.

The chemically induced "pleasure" sexual activity results in is nature's way of making human beings more inclined to do what is necessary, not the final goal of the act itself. Masturbation and sex for pleasure's sake alone are unintended side effects of this fact.

... there is no such thing as an "unintended side effect" of evolution because evolution has no intentions.

Aside from that, you're just wrong. Sex exists as way of increasing affection and bonds so that humans stay near each other and form communities, as opposed to drifting apart and getting eaten by tigers out in the wilderness.

 

[rathi]

To be fair, it can be pretty safely said that just about everyone in our society - with the exception of those who choose to go the route of total celibacy - subconsciously does still comply with our species' biological drive to procreate whether they're actively aware of it or not.

Sex makes babies, people. That's literally the only reason it exists.

This isn't exactly a MENSA level concept.

Learn some biology. For animals that simply fertilize eggs, they have simple sexual physiology which do just that. Humans and other animals with advanced nervous and hormonal systems triggered by sex also have strong pair bonding and social organization. We take so long to reach adulthood that our survival is predicated more on having a family structure to raise children than high birthrates. Sex plays an integral part in human social relationships which are so vital to our species success.

 

[Gipper]

It's not rape if she orders the lobster. She knew what she was gettin' into.

 

[Rainman05]

It's also human nature to be irrational and savage. We aren't rational being by default. If you look at us, emotions and instincts are far more powerful than reasonable thoughts. They come "more natural". That's why children don't act rational, they're aggressive at times, they don't have any interest in dialogue, they rely on insticts and emotions to dictate themselves. If human beings were rational beings in their natural state, our children would be different than they are now and maybe our whole society would be different.

It's a testament to civilization that we are able to exceed and educate ourselves and so, we discourage certain elements in our society that would come "natural" and replace them with better, artificial values.

Let me give another example, one that isn't as convoluted as the rape issue.

Eating. Naturally, human beings should eat a lot. Everything we can find because in nature, food is more scarce. But because we have constructed a better, artificial world that responds to human needs better, food is no longer an issue. So eating everything we can find will do us more harm than good so we need to balance ourselves and temper ourselves. Artificial environment, artificial values.

 

[opendebate]

You have so completely internalized the idea that anything that comes from human beings is basically good that it's impossible for you to see the truth of things. Once again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it. Again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it. And again, to blame bad behavior on human nature is not to excuse or justify it.

Believe me, I do not believe that anything that comes from human beings is good. I have experienced enough in life to know better. Not even sure where you got that.

I hear what you are trying to say. But you understand what is implied when you talk about evolving a work around and explain that is it a behavior innate to most males. Right? It implies that you are not only condoning the behavior but providing justification for it. I appreciate the concept of accepting the realities of human behavior and that we are just more evolved (although that may be questionable) animals. That we have more authority because of how our brains and bodies have evolved. But part of that evolution is the ability to not only control but change our behavior. It is not impossible to teach men that raping women is inappropriate and rather then take a giant step backward and promote that kind of thinking why not move forward and raise the bar on these men?

Just out of curiosity...if you were given the green light here what would you suggest be done to address this issue?

 

[Gathomas88]

Learn some biology. For animals that simply fertilize eggs, they have simple sexual physiology which do just that. Humans and other animals with advanced nervous and hormonal systems triggered by sex also have strong pair bonding and social organization. We take so long to reach adulthood that our survival is predicated more on having a family structure to raise children than high birthrates. Sex plays an integral part in human social relationships which are so vital to our species success.

Which refutes the fact that sex's primary purpose happens to be procreation and the survival of the species... how exactly? :roll:

Sociality is a survival strategy akin to any other in nature. It's ultimate purpose is to improve a given animal's chances of living long enough to pass it's genes onto the next generation, so that the species as whole may remain competitive within the greater ecosystem it inhabits.

The fact that human sexuality contributes to this overall goal by helping to promote (at the very least temporary) monogamy between breeding pairs only goes to prove my point. Not only does a bonded sexually active pair have a better chance of achieving pregnancy in the first place due to the sheer volume of sexual activity that tends to go on between them, but any offspring produced by the union have a better chance of surviving into reproductive maturity themselves if they are tended to by by a team of caregivers working together rather a single individual.

Frankly, all of these things should be more or less self-evident.

 

[LowDown]

The end result of this logic is that soldiers can't be trusted with any kind of access to the public, at least during their tenure in the military.

Thanks, I knew someone would eventually resort to a reductio ad absurdum argument. But military men are every bit as trustworthy around women as any other group of men are. I would guess more so.

Rape occurs in the military for the same reason why pedophillia occurs in the Catholic Church, because it was allowed. If you don't punish crimes then people no longer fear or respect them because they possess no real force.

Rape is illegal in the military, too. It's a cheap slander to say that rape is allowed in the military.

... there is no such thing as an "unintended side effect" of evolution because evolution has no intentions.

Correct, but there are the values that we put on the results of evolution.

Aside from that, you're just wrong. Sex exists as way of increasing affection and bonds so that humans stay near each other and form communities, as opposed to drifting apart and getting eaten by tigers out in the wilderness.

Nope, wrong. Sex is for procreation. All else is reproductive strategy which may include means that are good or bad; your touchy feely means as well as other means.

 

[SassySmartie]

Liberals spend most of their time denying and being blind to human nature, so it's no surprise that time and time again they fail at trying to make human beings better. They don't see the real problem, so they fail. They have solutions that don't address the real problem, so they fail.

Each of us is born with a biological imperative to procreate. It affects us deeply and in ways we can only barely comprehend. It is the pressure of a hundred thousand generations of successful parents, our ancestors, pressing down on us to go and do the same as they did, birth and raise children, continue the bloodline. It is set deeply within us, and it will not be repressed.

The idea that this can be changed with some politically correct groupthink is, in a word, idiotic.

But see the underlying human nature for what it is and a different set of possible solutions to the problem of rape in the military suggests itself. Like, for example, that it was insane to mix highly testosteronized men with women in the armed forces and expect a different outcome from the one we are getting, and maybe we ought to rethink the whole thing.

But this would be anathema to liberals, so the problem is just going to continue. Perhaps it will disrupt the military to the point where it is no longer effective. I'm pretty sure that all the time and energy spent addressing this is detracting from the main job of the military, which is to defend us and win wars.

The "roots" of rape? Que Ridiculo. This bit of misogynistic rape apology is just one reason rape is a major problem. It is people who think like you who galvanize rape culture and give rapists the space to justify their actions and blame their victims.

 

[calamity]

Liberals spend most of their time denying and being blind to human nature, so it's no surprise that time and time again they fail at trying to make human beings better. They don't see the real problem, so they fail. They have solutions that don't address the real problem, so they fail.

Each of us is born with a biological imperative to procreate. It affects us deeply and in ways we can only barely comprehend. It is the pressure of a hundred thousand generations of successful parents, our ancestors, pressing down on us to go and do the same as they did, birth and raise children, continue the bloodline. It is set deeply within us, and it will not be repressed.

The idea that this can be changed with some politically correct groupthink is, in a word, idiotic.

But see the underlying human nature for what it is and a different set of possible solutions to the problem of rape in the military suggests itself. Like, for example, that it was insane to mix highly testosteronized men with women in the armed forces and expect a different outcome from the one we are getting, and maybe we ought to rethink the whole thing.

But this would be anathema to liberals, so the problem is just going to continue. Perhaps it will disrupt the military to the point where it is no longer effective. I'm pretty sure that all the time and energy spent addressing this is detracting from the main job of the military, which is to defend us and win wars.

Rape has nothing to do with the "biological imperative to procreate". It's a crime of violence. Period.

Thread fail.

 

[Smeagol]

did you just claim that rape is always about procreation?????

wow if the first post wasnt enough you just proved how severely uneducated you are about this topic


rape is always about procreation:lamo

Its an horrific crime and unspeakable defilement of an innocent person. However I think its completely untrue that rapists are motivated by a desire to have children. I think they are motivated by narcissism, a desire to control, hatred, ego and a desire to feed their own criminally selfish sexual pleasures.

Not long ago I learned my ex-girlfriend from eons ago back when I was in high school was raped by a co-worker. I was the young talented kid who got all then attention and even the cute receptionist who was closer to his age than mine liked me. He was the adult under-achiever being outdone by an 11th grader. He raped her because he hated me, I guess giving himself a twisted feeling of accomplishment feeling he was victorious over me in something. Who knows? I never learned of the attack until years later.

PS. I object to the personal the personal insults directed at the OPer. The guy was just openly sharing his thoughts. I don't think any of us supports or defends rape. I also don't think women belong in military combat for a variety of reasons most of which boil down to my view that men should protect and defend women, not the other way around.

 

[Morality Games]

Thanks, I knew someone would eventually resort to a reductio ad absurdum argument. But military men are every bit as trustworthy around women as any other group of men are. I would guess more so.

There's nothing absurd about it. The logical implications of men not being able to restrain their lust for women in a professional setting is that they can't be trusted to do so in a recreational setting either. If there is any reason to suspect this implication does not follow logically from your argument, then you haven't provided it. And it certainly isn't my job to piece together your argument for you or to find exceptions where your point doesn't apply.

Rape is illegal in the military, too. It's a cheap slander to say that rape is allowed in the military.

And yet every investigation or inquiry by congress and tertiary organizations has discovered a culture of tolerance exists and that superiors often discourage victims from reporting the crime. There's quite a scandal on about it going on now. But if you take specific objection about the word "allowed", I don't care. There's nothing I hate more than arguing semantics with fussy people.

Correct, but there are the values that we put on the results of evolution.

That "you" put on it. I have no obligation to even agree that procreation is even a particularly good idea when the life form created must necessarily feel terror, pain, and death. There is no specific need for me to agree to your values outside my own convenience.

Nope, wrong. Sex is for procreation. All else is reproductive strategy which may include means that are good or bad; your touchy feely means as well as other means.

Which is a personal judgment that I have no compulsion to agree with. Just because your consciousness has formed a certain set of values from its experience of its own biological imperatives doesn't mean the rest of us have exactly the same set of values.

 

[LowDown]

Just out of curiosity...if you were given the green light here what would you suggest be done to address this issue?

The aggressive tendencies of young men have always been exploited to create warriors. In training the men are stressed and prodded to bring those tendencies out. Their strength and endurance is increased. Their testosterone levels are literally higher than at any time of their lives. This is necessary because it helps them survive and win in a conflict. It's not something that can easily be given up. We can't dispense with that masculine culture entirely although there are lots of places to serve where it's not necessary.

Maintaining strict discipline is the only thing that is likely to work.

 

[opendebate]

The aggressive tendencies of young men have always been exploited to create warriors. In training the men are stressed and prodded to bring those tendencies out. Their strength and endurance is increased. Their testosterone levels are literally higher than at any time of their lives. This is necessary because it helps them survive and win in a conflict. It's not something that can easily be given up. We can't dispense with that masculine culture entirely although there are lots of places to serve where it's not necessary.

Maintaining strict discipline is the only thing that is likely to work.

So what exactly are you promoting? Just a different understanding of what motivates the behavior in the first place or a different tactic for dealing with it?

 

[TiredOfLife]

No, it is the other way around. Sex exists explicitly for the purpose of reproduction and in order to ensure the survival of the species.

The chemically induced "pleasure" sexual activity results in is nature's way of making human beings more inclined to do what is necessary, not the final goal of the act itself. Masturbation and sex for pleasure's sake alone are unintended side effects of this fact.

It makes sense that you would think that but it isn't so, although you have hit on the fact that because it is fun nature gets what she wants, more babies. Because it was (and is) fun, and those people reproduced more than those who didn't have fun, and their numbers grew. The sex is fun people were naturally selected but most sex we have has nothing to do with wanting a baby. When the conditions are right, reproduction plays it the sneaky way and makes a baby while we were, almost always, just having fun. It's a nice little trick but it is a trick. We could easily reproduce in a way that gives us no or very little pleasure, but instead we are so wired for fun down below that we don't even need a partner and it's fun before we can make a baby, and long after. While you can't tickle yourself, you can masturbate to orgasm with absolutely no chance of making a baby. That's not a drive to reproduce, that's a desire for pleasure. When we do it with a fertile partner of the opposite sex, nature sometimes gets what she wants, fresh paint in the nursery. It does seem backwards, but it isn't.