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The Roma repatriation

Infinite Chaos

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The Roma repatriation
Gavin Hewitt | 12:00 UK time, Thursday, 19 August 2010

It is a desperate way to survive. In many European cities you can find women begging for money. Many of them are Roma. They squat on the Champs Elysees. They stand by the Brandenburg gate in Berlin or in the square at Alexanderplatz. Many carry children and some have cards asking for money. They sit on the stairs leading out of the metro station at Avenue Louise in Brussels. They crowd around the entrances to the Gare du Nord in Paris.


There is evidence that much of the begging is organised and controlled by men. The women are expected to bring in at least 50 euros a day. Some, like outside the Gare Du Nord, operate in groups of up to 15. The police believed that invalids and children, who are used to gain sympathy, are shared out between the groups.

It is the view of the French president that begging is part of a wider deeper problem involving some of the Roma. He believes that illegal Roma camps on the edge of French cities are a linked to serious crime. The Elysee Palace explained that the Roma camps were "sources of illegal trafficking, profoundly shocking living standards, the exploitation of children for begging, prostitution and crime."

Other countries have recently taken action against Roma groups. Demark has expelled some of them, so has Sweden. Germany has paid some to return to Bulgaria or Romania, where most of them originate from.
Gavin Hewitt: BBC Blog
Repatriation is unlikely to work - we're talking about a real clash of culture here between residential Nationals and nomadic immigrants. From their point of view, they're making the most of opportunities our societies give them and from our point of view - many of us see them as unsightly beggars.

Many years ago, I spent two summers working with Irish "Travellers" / Gypsy kids in London as a volunteer between my Masters academic years at a BMX track in Hammersmith. The kids were hated by the locals who thought they would steal the other kids bikes and that this was money badly spent.

I liked the Gypsy kids but I could also see that their lifestyle was hated by others - I can imagine this is the same everywhere Gypsies and Travellers live.
 

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The deportations of Rroma people are shameful and disgusting, often justified by the states because these people are unemployed and beg in the streets. These laws are abject and need to be changed.
 
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I remember the Roma women in Paris from when I was there in 2004, they would always ask you if you spoke English and if the answer was "yes" then they'd bring out cards with pictures of their kids on them, and they'd beg you for money . . . They were annoying at worse, but honestly, unless you were a real idiot it would be difficult to be taken in by it. Shame of France for repatriating them by the way - Sarkozy isn't even remotely popular right now, he's drawing short (sniggers) on all fronts, and this must be some desperate attempt to appeal to populism . . . All these people want is a decent life for themselves and their children.
 
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If they didn't duck paying council tax and didn't steal other peoples' land (amongst other things), they might not have such an image problem.

Make no mistake, this is no Roma problem but a dregs of society problem. It's been aeons since we had PROPER gypsies working on the land and fighting generally groundless accusations of scumbaggery.
 
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Infinite Chaos

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If they didn't duck paying council tax and didn't steal other peoples' land (amongst other things), they might not have such an image problem.

Make no mistake, this is no Roma problem but a dregs of society problem. It's been aeons since we had PROPER gypsies working on the land and fighting generally groundless accusations of scumbaggery.
True Gypsies are nomadic - most council tax systems are based on a static population. If you look at it from a Nomads POV, they could be asked to pay local or council tax twice a year (or more) if they move between states / counties or areas. Our Western society changed 100 years ago and nomadic peoples have been either exterminated (Germany WW2), forced to live in horrible public accomodation (most of the Soviet Bloc and post Soviet countries) or subject to "Nimbyism" in Western Europe.

Strange that we might admire nomads in other countries but hate those who live among us - laws around land ownership and passage has changed in most of Western Europe and these people now exist on the edges of society and like most who live there are hated and feared.
 

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As for the anti-social criminals who just barge in and snatch whatever they want for themselves? Just firmly show your displeasure and their over-inflated, bogus and leftist-encouraged sense of victimhood can do the rest:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Travellers quit genteel resort...because the locals were 'too rude'



And before some may feel sorry for them, it appears they are also skilled liars claiming to only be there for a holiday, though they had already leafleted the neighbourhood with scrap merchant flyers.

It was best for everyone that they moved on. After all, shiny 4x4s paid for by ducking taxes and rent are best kept on the move else they seize up!





____________________________________________________________

If militant 'traveller' groups are devious enough to push and exploit the totalitarian dictators' club of the UN classing them as a distinct race, then you know you're dealing with the pros.

gyppos.jpg


They've done a first class 'Bilko' on us! Not even the loudmouth, Sharia-demanding hardcore Islamic groups tried it on to that extreme!

If they diverted all that energy into living honest lives then they could reach for the sky, as many a proud Jewish mother wishes for her son.
 
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Infinite Chaos

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--snip-- If militant 'traveller' groups are devious enough to push and exploit the totalitarian dictators' club of the UN classing them as a distinct race, then you know you're dealing with the pros. --
--snip--
The only understandable part of your contradictory rant I understood was the above bit - however, have you ever met a real Roma? You say you are of Polish descent meaning you should if you ever travelled around the Slavic region have seen and met real Roma. They look nothing like the white slavs and are (like the Magyars who took over Hungary) supposed to have journeyed over from India.
Certainly (to me) Roma (note thread title) look very Asiatic as oppoed to European.
 

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As for the anti-social criminals who just barge in and snatch whatever they want for themselves?
I did make the distinction.
 

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I find their plight unfortunate. I know they are involved in petty crime for the sake of survival, and I think they should be punished on a case-by-case basis, but a lot of that survival behavior is based on them having to adapt to the modern world. Nomadic peoples need big swaths of area for migration and their natural livelihood, and it's inevitable that they are going to run into problems in Europe.

It's difficult to explain the situation to people who only see the world as a bordered system of nations. A lot of cultures, particularly nomadic ones, have never seen it that way and continue to roam the land as they always have. France has a lot of social instability right now because of the culture clashes; I find it sad that the Roma are being made scapegoats because of it. Sarkozy is using it as a diversionary tactic.
 

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I find their plight unfortunate. I know they are involved in petty crime for the sake of survival, and I think they should be punished on a case-by-case basis, but a lot of that survival behavior is based on them having to adapt to the modern world. Nomadic peoples need big swaths of area for migration and their natural livelihood, and it's inevitable that they are going to run into problems in Europe.
Most are not nomadic and have not been for a long time. Crime is not for the sake of survival, but a family business for many.

It's difficult to explain the situation to people who only see the world as a bordered system of nations. A lot of cultures, particularly nomadic ones, have never seen it that way and continue to roam the land as they always have. France has a lot of social instability right now because of the culture clashes; I find it sad that the Roma are being made scapegoats because of it. Sarkozy is using it as a diversionary tactic.
Stop watching Fox News :) There is not "a lot" of social instability in France.. no more than there is in the US or other nations due to the economic crisis.
 

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Most are not nomadic and have not been for a long time. Crime is not for the sake of survival, but a family business for many.
You can't typecast the entire people based on that.

Stop watching Fox News :) There is not "a lot" of social instability in France.. no more than there is in the US or other nations due to the economic crisis.
Um... I'm not some sycophant who watches the news and thinks he knows everything. I've been a student of France's social situation for a while. There have been racial tensions broiling there for a long time now, and now a neo-con is in power. I don't see why you feel the need to bring the U.S. into it. We already know that the U.S. has economic problems, and that it has issues; right now we are talking about France and the Roma. Pointing out the U.S. doesn't negate anything I've said about France.

It's like me showing you and orange and you point to apple and say "That's a fruit too!" Well thanks for telling me that, but I'm talking about the orange.
 

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I know they are involved in petty crime for the sake of survival....
The criminals amongst them put themselves in that position. Whatever their nationality, councils have offered or put them up in accommodation time and time and time again. If you're registered unemployed you can be let off paying the rent and can even be put in nice areas amongst nice people.

As as I've seen with my own eyes, the oppertunities have been squandered time and again, with boarded up houses and mess left behind when they're gone. So, for at least the ones I've witnessed, we're not talking poor little persecuteds but ungrateful louts.


Hence my earlier comment that it's a dregs of society problem and not a Roma problem. You only really notice them when there's trouble.
 
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PeteEU

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You can't typecast the entire people based on that.
When the shoe fits. Listen I know and have met Roma that have integrated into society, and thrown away their old habits. It has been almost a policy in Spain for that to happen since the Roma were a pest (and still are some places) here in Spain for a long time. Before we had the Eastern European gangs and North African gangs, it was the Roma who stood for a large portion of crime on Costa Del Sol... this was 30 years ago btw.

In Denmark, many Roma refuse to send their kids to school, live off the state and steal like there is no tomorrow.

Um... I'm not some sycophant who watches the news and thinks he knows everything. I've been a student of France's social situation for a while. There have been racial tensions broiling there for a long time now, and now a neo-con is in power.
The French social situation is no different than any other social situation around the world. In hard economic times, such social issues prop up time and time again.. but yes it does not help with a conservative moron like Sarkozy in power.

I don't see why you feel the need to bring the U.S. into it. We already know that the U.S. has economic problems, and that it has issues; right now we are talking about France and the Roma. Pointing out the U.S. doesn't negate anything I've said about France.
Okay, forget the US although it is closer to your home :).. then the UK. Not much difference there if you ask me. Asians feel marginalized and "hunted" just like North African's feel in France. Or Denmark, where Turks feel marginalized. And so on and so on. Minorities are always first blamed for the hardships of the rest, and often the minorities use this as an excuse to social unrest.

It's like me showing you and orange and you point to apple and say "That's a fruit too!" Well thanks for telling me that, but I'm talking about the orange.
Not it is like you showing me a Flordia orange and I showing you a Spanish orange. Social unrest is and always will be ripe during crisis times, regardless of the country.
 

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Most are not nomadic and have not been for a long time. Crime is not for the sake of survival, but a family business for many.
I couldn't speak for all Roma or Irish Tinkers / Travellers but they did certainly live a nomadic life, the Roma particularly in Eastern Europe were persecuted and then forced to live in govt housing.

As for crime, when you can't get a job or bank account because you don't have a (static) residential address to rceive post at you automatically are reduced to the borderline. I'm sure many will be involved in larger scale crime but inability to pay tax / national insurance automatically puts you in the "criminal category."

Not having a permanent address and having the propensity to move around various states or counties automatically means you can't pay local govt taxes and are again classified as criminal. I just feel we haven't planned to make allowances (as European societies) for peoples whose historical lifestyle does not fit in with our traditions.
 

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I couldn't speak for all Roma or Irish Tinkers / Travellers but they did certainly live a nomadic life, the Roma particularly in Eastern Europe were persecuted and then forced to live in govt housing.
They live a nomadic life for a reason if you ask me. It fits into their criminal enterprise. And in Eastern Europe many Roma have settled down, but continued their criminal ways. There was a documentary on British TV not long ago.. was mind boggling how criminal they were from birth to the grave, running whole towns and areas of Romania.

Also moving around a lot like a Nomad does not contribute to their issues... it is because they dont follow the laws. I moved around a lot not long ago, and yet I followed the laws.

As for crime, when you can't get a job or bank account because you don't have a (static) residential address to rceive post at you automatically are reduced to the borderline. I'm sure many will be involved in larger scale crime but inability to pay tax / national insurance automatically puts you in the "criminal category."
They can easily get a bank account and job and even a residential address. It is nothing but an excuse. You can get a bank account on a passport in most countries. You can get a P.O.Box if you pay for it in almost every country. The problem is they often try to live on public land and/or private land without permission. They break the law and claim some sort of divine right to be able to break the law because they are Roma.. come on.. Ever heard of a P.O.Box? Ever heard of having an address with family or friends? Not all Roma are nomads.. many have settled down.

Not having a permanent address and having the propensity to move around various states or counties automatically means you can't pay local govt taxes and are again classified as criminal. I just feel we haven't planned to make allowances (as European societies) for peoples whose historical lifestyle does not fit in with our traditions.
No it means that you are too lazy or refuse to conform to the law of the land. Big difference. They refuse to register at the local council when entering their area, and just barge into abandoned housing or random plots of land. And we have planned plenty for such people, it is the Roma that refuse to conform to the rule set we have set out. Like it or not, children have mandatory education requirements and the Roma refuse to meet those requirements often. My aunt has had a battle with Roman families in the school she teaches in.. they are far worse than the radical Islamic families often. They would rather have their kids out working or stealing... since they cant be put in jail. When you have to get the local council and police involved to get the children to school... then you know something is seriously wrong in their heads. Only after threatening to cut off their social benefits, did the children start to come back to school.. for a while at least.

I have dealt with Roma quite a bit over the decades, and some are nice friendly law abiding citizens. Hell in this area there are quite a few, who even have good jobs and their children are going to university and so on. I even believe there are several Roma involved and elected in local and regional politics here in Spain.

And then I have meet the worst kind.. the Roma that robbed me 20 years ago, and the Roma who stole my house for a year by squatting in it. I had two choices... the legal way (which took a year) or using the local police who were willing to help if asked. And I still get the police coming around asking questions about the former Roma resident here, plus I am almost sure the house was used for drug making.

Now my personal experience sure taints my view of the Roma, but it is not different that the anecdotal evidence over decades that we have heard about.

Now saying that.. yes the Roma are treated like dirt in Eastern Europe and that is a separate issue, because in Western Europe they have so many possibilities and often live off the state, but refuse to improve themselves.
 

bub

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They're not liked because no one knows where their money comes from. They all have giant caravans, expensive Mercedes cars...how do they pay that? Where do they work? Most people who work all day long couldn't afford their cars!
 

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They're not liked because no one knows where their money comes from. They all have giant caravans, expensive Mercedes cars...how do they pay that? Where do they work? Most people who work all day long couldn't afford their cars!
Looks like the UK ones are not so wealthy as the ones in Belguim Bub, certainly if life expentancy has anything to do with it

According to the British Medical Association, the community has the lowest life expectancy and highest rate of child mortality in the UK. Nomadic Gypsies fare particularly badly when it comes to health care, as the absence of a permanent address makes registering with a GP far more difficult. Ofsted has also reported low levels of educational achievement and high rates of illiteracy among Traveller children, due to a disrupted education and bullying.

The British National Party has said in previous local election campaigns that it will evict Travellers, while the campaigning organisation Minority Rights Group International reports that there have been racist attacks on campsites in the UK, many of which are not reported to the police.

"In my experience, racism against Travellers has definitely got worse over the past 40 years. In some bits of Europe, this is due to the fall of Communism and rise of nationalism, but in the UK, it's probably linked with anti-immigration feelings," said Grattan Puxon, founder of the Gypsy Council and the author of a number of books on the Traveller community, most recently the 2007 novel Freeborn Traveller.
'No blacks, no dogs,no Gypsies' - Home News, UK - The Independent

The BBC reckons they are the most hated people in Europe, hated even more than asylum haters. Hated indeed as much as when half a million of them were murdered in the holocaust.

BBC NEWS | UK | Gypsies are 'Europe's most hated'
 

bub

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Looks like the UK ones are not so wealthy as the ones in Belguim Bub, certainly if life expentancy has anything to do with it



'No blacks, no dogs,no Gypsies' - Home News, UK - The Independent

The BBC reckons they are the most hated people in Europe, hated even more than asylum haters. Hated indeed as much as when half a million of them were murdered in the holocaust.

BBC NEWS | UK | Gypsies are 'Europe's most hated'
video Partis de Wingene, les Gitans s'installent à Dour - interieur, general - videos lesoir.be

Just watch this video, that was in July, 750 gypsies squatted a field in Dour without asking the farmer. Look at their cars: brand new mercedes vans, the most recent model of large peugeot vans, mini coopers, BMW jeeps and even a huge VW turan at the end of the video.

Since 80% of the people who have a job can't afford these cars, how comes that most of these people, whose job is still mysterious, can buy them?
 
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PeteEU

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Looks like the UK ones are not so wealthy as the ones in Belguim Bub, certainly if life expentancy has anything to do with it

'No blacks, no dogs,no Gypsies' - Home News, UK - The Independent
Most Romani dont believe in modern medicine, and this is especially those that still practice the old ways of travelling around. So their lack of life expectancy is their own fault. Sorry if it is not politically correct, but that is a fact. If they dont want to be helped, then why should we do anything extraordinary to help them for? If a smoker does not want to quit smoking, then should we force them? Of course not.. same principle here.

The BBC reckons they are the most hated people in Europe, hated even more than asylum haters. Hated indeed as much as when half a million of them were murdered in the holocaust.

BBC NEWS | UK | Gypsies are 'Europe's most hated'
Biggest crime bosses in Romania... the Romani elders. Crime and Romani go hand in hand and has for centuries. Are criminals hated.. you betcha.
 

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video Partis de Wingene, les Gitans s'installent à Dour - interieur, general - videos lesoir.be

Just watch this video, that was in July, 750 gypsies squatted a field in Dour without asking the farmer. Look at their cars: brand new mercedes vans, the most recent model of large peugeot vans, mini coopers, BMW jeeps and even a huge VW turan at the end of the video.

Since 80% of the people who have a job can't afford these cars, how comes that most of these people, whose job is still mysterious, can buy them?
As far as the vans are concerned I don't know much about such things. They just looked like vans, cars and caravans to me. Bloomin heck, these people live in these. It is all they have. They move around all the time so they need a car that works. Obviously they have some way of earning money to buy them.


It is concerning.
Dr Smith said: "If we don't learn from the past, we run the risk of repeating its mistakes in the future.

"Sixty years ago, after centuries of persecution, Europe's gypsies faced extermination under the Nazis, simply because of who they were.

"Up to half a million were killed. Yet even after the Holocaust, gypsies remain perhaps the most hated minority in Europe.

"When hysteria is whipped up against a minority by politicians and the media, people get hurt and they are getting hurt, right now.
"
BBC NEWS | UK | Gypsies are 'Europe's most hated'

That I think is possibly the problem. If, and I couldn't understand your clip, but if people were acting in the way you are complaining about all the time it would not make news.

I have seen news of people complaining about them here and I have also seen one or two documentaries on them.
When I was a child I wanted to be a gypsie but my Mum told me there were no gypsies any more. Now that may have been almost true in Europe after the holocaust though it would not of Irish.

She could of course have told me this nursery rhyme.

My mother said that I never should
play with the gysies in the wood
If I did she would say
You naughty little girl to disobey.
Your hair shaln't curl,
Your shoes shaln't shine,
You naughty little gypsie girl
You shaln't be mine.
Clearly the hatred is old and runs deep.

They decide to live differently to us. What are we going to do about it? Exterminate them again or find ways to work with the situation.

It is necessary to provide adequate sites for them to use - clearly that is a high priority if you don't want them camping in your garden. Then work needs to go on to make sure they can receive proper medical care and find possibilities for them to get an education. All these things need to be done while accepting their way of life. We need to create the foundation so that those who wish to join society will have the necessary skills to do so. Some will, some won't some will not be able to get educated and so on. The best way to find their needs is to talk to them then it will be possible to provide services in a manner in which they are likely to use them.

I saw a documentary where kids wanted to go to school but they received so much bullying they changed their mind.

They must be subject to the same laws as every one else. We either work with them or possible move into more sinister territory again.
 

bub

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As far as the vans are concerned I don't know much about such things. They just looked like vans, cars and caravans to me. Bloomin heck, these people live in these. It is all they have. They move around all the time so they need a car that works. Obviously they have some way of earning money to buy them.


It is concerning.


BBC NEWS | UK | Gypsies are 'Europe's most hated'

That I think is possibly the problem. If, and I couldn't understand your clip, but if people were acting in the way you are complaining about all the time it would not make news.

I have seen news of people complaining about them here and I have also seen one or two documentaries on them.
When I was a child I wanted to be a gypsie but my Mum told me there were no gypsies any more. Now that may have been almost true in Europe after the holocaust though it would not of Irish.

She could of course have told me this nursery rhyme.



Clearly the hatred is old and runs deep.

They decide to live differently to us. What are we going to do about it? Exterminate them again or find ways to work with the situation.

It is necessary to provide adequate sites for them to use - clearly that is a high priority if you don't want them camping in your garden. Then work needs to go on to make sure they can receive proper medical care and find possibilities for them to get an education. All these things need to be done while accepting their way of life. We need to create the foundation so that those who wish to join society will have the necessary skills to do so. Some will, some won't some will not be able to get educated and so on. The best way to find their needs is to talk to them then it will be possible to provide services in a manner in which they are likely to use them.

I saw a documentary where kids wanted to go to school but they received so much bullying they changed their mind.
.
Could we discuss about gypsies/roma without having to talk about the holocaust?

Apparently, some of them claim they "repair chairs" "deliver carpets" and "clean houses"...now tell me how many chairs you have to repair in order to buy a Ferrari or a Porsche Boxter?

Les mystérieuses Ferrari des gitans de Rennaz | Tribune de Genève

They must be subject to the same laws as every one else
Indeed. When 750 people illegally squat a private property, they're deported, be they Roma, Japanese or Peruvians. And the Japanese and Peruvians won't complain on TV that they're being deported because everyone hates them.
 
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Interesting that newspaper article posted.

The 'traveller' group claims to be there to fight 'racism', yet the paper says:

Gypsy and Traveller organisations will hold an unprecedented gathering later this month with the aim of bringing together the country's 300,000 Roma, Irish, Welsh and English Gypsies and Travellers in a national federation.

Devious even when calling for fairness. How can it be waysist when we're apparently all of the same stock? (Or near enough in today's multi-mixed Europe!)

Despite their badgering the UN into giving them their own racial status, it isn't. Just that after years of playing victim, they've got emotional blackmail off to a fine art.



The true labouring Romanies Hitler exterminated are a far cry from today's wandering vagabonds, dodgy tarmac monkeys, squatters and cutpurses, regularly of IRISH extraction. Such comparisons can be therefore ignored.

Let's hope that on top of campaigning for their rights they also live up to some responsibilities - shopping any criminal mates, making sure that each of their comrades behaves as well as the best of them, actually having valid business licences and without exception buying the land they move to (plus getting planning permission before any building) would be a fine start.



_________________________________________________________________

Also, the statement is often made that so-called gypsies are hated as much as Muslims in today's Europe.

Both sets of people wonder why there's such an image problem, despite the fact that both groups have extremely strong concentrations some of the most badly behaved people we have to have around us. Or with others who would be merely rough and ready, presumptuous, demanding and always willing to act the injured innocent at the brutal hands of absolutely everyone else in the world.

And the liberals and lefties fall for the broken-hearted act every time. Without even bothering to exchange it for across-the-board good behaviour, standard practice amongst decent ordinary people, they just dish out the patronage with no questions asked.


They do the same with regular criminals and 'troubled' violent yobs as well! (Except those in the EDL, obviously).

Time for them to question their over-inflated sense of morality, I fancy, before the usual fingers get wagged at the rest of us.
 
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alexa

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Could we discuss about gypsies/roma without having to talk about the holocaust?
Well the BBC seems to find it relevent. They were victims of hatred then and that resulted in their mass slaughter and it seems they are the same now.

Apparently, some of them claim they "repair chairs" "deliver carpets" and "clean houses"...now tell me how many chairs you have to repair in order to buy a or a Porsche Boxter?
I could not hear what the people were saying but it just sounds like one of those usual things. There is a hated group. A reason is found to justify this hatred.

The people in the documentaries I saw in the UK were not rich.

Is your hatred towards them just because one of them has a Ferrari and you do not?

Indeed. When 750 people illegally squat a private property, they're deported, be they Roma, Japanese or Peruvians. And the Japanese and Peruvians won't complain on TV that they're being deported because everyone hates them.
be they of Belguim citizenship or not. So the OP was about 750 people illegally squatting on private property was it? When I was in my 20's I squatted a flat in London. Not only did I not get deported, I didn't even get arrested.
 

Infinite Chaos

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-- Now saying that.. yes the Roma are treated like dirt in Eastern Europe and that is a separate issue, because in Western Europe they have so many possibilities and often live off the state, but refuse to improve themselves.
This bit sorts of explains from both sides what the problem is - whose definition of "improve yourself" is the most important? We are trying to fit them into a mould that does not match their lifestyle and history. Their "rule book" is different from ours - the communists tried making them live in static homes and made them live a lfestyle that they didn't want.

Of course there are criminals among them - however some of the rules and standards we made for our lifestyle puts them in a position where they are automatically criminals. I do have to disagree about the ease of getting bank accounts, jobs and benefits when you don;t have a house - usually you'd have a guarantor elsewhere whereas gypsies would all live a nomadic lifestyle.

I also agree there are huge problems with mess and dirt when they move on from the temporary sites they stay at - it can be awful and cause a lot of trouble. Some of them also squat in empty property and cause problems - but so do non-nomadic people - if you'd had ordinary squatters n your property, you'd have had the same problems.
 

alexa

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I will say Infinite the property I squatted was not someone's home!!
 
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