• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Road to Guantanamo

python416

Active member
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
484
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Just finished watching this movie. Very powerful and well done.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/

Anyone else seen it? For those who have, does it make you question the policies of the Bush administration?
 
Well since no one has anything to say, I'll add a bit more of my thoughts.

The picture really shows how the treatment of these prisoners is not inline with the Geneva conventions. I think it also shows that there are innocent people there; which without a trail, is pretty much a crime in and of itself. It is a disgrace.

Anyone want to disagree?
 
I haven't seen it yet but those I know who have, that I consider to be "in-the-know," claim it's just a bunch of slanted propaganda.

I'll wait until I can watch it for free. I'd hate to support yet another project film produced with the sole intent to create division.
 
Captain America said:
I haven't seen it yet but those I know who have, that I consider to be "in-the-know," claim it's just a bunch of slanted propaganda.

I'll wait until I can watch it for free. I'd hate to support yet another project film produced with the sole intent to create division.

You can get it off bittorrent right now for free. Try torrentspy.com; that is where I got it.

I'm sure that people are going to call it slanted, but those guys where held there and the US doesn't really have much crediability to contest the content. Naked prisioners is a violation, and the US has had a lot of those at Abu Gharab. Looks pretty bad.
 
Good drama. I like 24 better.
 
akyron said:
Good drama. I like 24 better.

So:

-there were no innocent people at Gitmo
-Geneva conventions aren't being violated
-they weren't being held without trial

Yep, keep believing that if it is what you need to do to turn away from the fact the your own government acting disgracefully.
 
Captain America said:
I haven't seen it yet but those I know who have, that I consider to be "in-the-know," claim it's just a bunch of slanted propaganda.

I'll wait until I can watch it for free. I'd hate to support yet another project film produced with the sole intent to create division.


Agree.......
 
cherokee said:
Agree.......

So you haven't seen it, but you agree with someone else who didn't see it but has an assesment based entirely on the fact that someone he knows told him that it was "slanted propaganda"?

Nice one!

No wonder people don't really care about what their government is doing.

If you haven't seen it, why not try speaking to the facts at least:

there have been innocent people brought there
people are being held without trial
people are being treated in violation of the GC
the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

It is shameful and a disgrace. That is how the rest of the world sees it, and agree with it or not, Americans will have to deal with that image going forward.
 
Last edited:
python416 said:
So:

-there were no innocent people at Gitmo
-Geneva conventions aren't being violated
-they weren't being held without trial

Yep, keep believing that if it is what you need to do to turn away from the fact the your own government acting disgracefully.


Uhh from your own link......Genre: Drama

Didnt make the top ten yet...

The Godfather (1972)
The Shawshank Redemption (1994)
The Godfather: Part II (1974)
Shichinin no samurai (1954)
Casablanca (1942)
Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966)
Schindler's List (1993)
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
Pulp Fiction (1994)
12 Angry Men (1957)
 
python416 said:
If you haven't seen it, why not try speaking to the facts at least:

Have you read any of the material on Gitmo at the defenselink web site? You don't directly counter any of the programs that are described there, but continue to make assertions about aspects of the detainee program that are countered by facts at the defenselink web site. Just curious.
 
Truly my only real beef with Gitmo is that we are holding people without conviction, or charges.

That's way to 'USSR' for me.
 
akyron said:
Uhh from your own link......Genre: Drama

Didnt make the top ten yet...

The Godfather (1972)
The Shawshank Redemption (1994)
The Godfather: Part II (1974)
Shichinin no samurai (1954)
Casablanca (1942)
Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966)
Schindler's List (1993)
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
Pulp Fiction (1994)
12 Angry Men (1957)

I am not interested in the movie's popularity.

Do you disagree with the following assertions:


-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

The imdb rating of the movie (or its classification) is not at issue.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Have you read any of the material on Gitmo at the defenselink web site? You don't directly counter any of the programs that are described there, but continue to make assertions about aspects of the detainee program that are countered by facts at the defenselink web site. Just curious.

Do you disagree with the following assertions:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated


What the DoD says doesn't carry much weight; but the facts are pretty much not in debate. There are innocent people there; they are being held without trial; those two things are not in debate. The other two are, but the first two are enough that people should be concerned with what is going on there - no?
 
::Major_Baker:: said:
Truly my only real beef with Gitmo is that we are holding people without conviction, or charges.

That's way to 'USSR' for me.

That is the biggest one; because that is what is allowing innocent people to remain there. If they addressed that issue, then maybe the outrage would quite down.
 
python416 said:
I am not interested in the movie's popularity.

Do you disagree with the following assertions:


-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

The imdb rating of the movie (or its classification) is not at issue.

Well when you tout a drama as fact then yeah it is an issue.

The movie itself describes itself as a part drama part documentary. Not that documentarys have always been fact either.
 
python416 said:
Do you disagree with the following assertions:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated


What the DoD says doesn't carry much weight; but the facts are pretty much not in debate. There are innocent people there; they are being held without trial; those two things are not in debate. The other two are, but the first two are enough that people should be concerned with what is going on there - no?

I'll take that as a no, you haven't seriously researched what is going on at Gitmo. Instead, it appears that you have just latched onto the critics cries and embraced them without thinking for yourself.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Do you disagree with the following assertions:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated


What the DoD says doesn't carry much weight; but the facts are pretty much not in debate. There are innocent people there; they are being held without trial; those two things are not in debate. The other two are, but the first two are enough that people should be concerned with what is going on there - no?
I'll take that as a no, you haven't seriously researched what is going on at Gitmo. Instead, it appears that you have just latched onto the critics cries and embraced them without thinking for yourself.

I didn't need a movie to point out the facts that:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

I just thought talking about the movie was a good thread starter.

I will ask you again, ASIDE FROM THE MOVIE; do you disagree with the following assertions (that I believed before the movie - if that somehow matters to you):

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated
 
python416 said:
I didn't need a movie to point out the facts that:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

I just thought talking about the movie was a good thread starter.

I will ask you again, ASIDE FROM THE MOVIE; do you disagree with the following assertions (that I believed before the movie - if that somehow matters to you):

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

Look, I don't really care about the movie per se. The point I'm trying to get at is: did you or did you not read any of the DoD material or did you just latch on to these assertions from the move and adopt them as your own? Did you think for yourself or were you persuaded?
 
oldreliable67 said:
Look, I don't really care about the movie per se. The point I'm trying to get at is: did you or did you not read any of the DoD material or did you just latch on to these assertions from the move and adopt them as your own? Did you think for yourself or were you persuaded?

Nor do I care about the movie, or DoD claims either. I will say it slowly: I believed the assertions before the movie came out! I am only using the movie as a topic to start a discussion on gitmo.

Now can we talk about the asserts themselves instead of trying to tie each other to some website or movie?

Which of the following do you disagree with:

-there have been innocent people brought there
-people are being held without trial
-people are being treated in violation of the GC
-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated
 
python416 said:
Which of the following do you disagree with:

-there have been innocent people brought there

No doubt there have. Those whose innocence has been affirmed have been released.

-people are being held without trial

There are two procedures in place for determination of detainee status: the Administrative Review Board and the Military Tribunal. In the case of the Tribunal - the proceedings that the SCOTUS just overturned - A three-officer panel heard arguments, and one senior officer presided. Defense and prosecuting teams had tables in the court. A court reporter, bailiffs, translators and military police were also present.

Detainees were allowed two family members in the courtroom at a time. Others permitted in the gallery included media members, diplomatic representatives from the detainees' home countries, U.S. government officials, and observers from nongovernmental human-rights organizations.

Ten media members were allowed to be in the courtroom, and a remote media center was set up to allow 90 other reporters to view the proceedings via closed-circuit television.

The Administrative Review Board (ARB) reviews the status of detainees at least once a year. In an ARB, the detainees have the chance to argue their case against continued detention before a board of three U.S. military officers. The detainees' home countries and families also have an opportunity to present information to the panel.

The ARB's purpose is to determine if each detainee is still a threat to the United States or still holds intelligence value.

This review process is not required by the Geneva Conventions or by U.S. or international law. "Our ARB process ... helps to mitigate concerns that have been raised about the indefinite detention (of enemy combatants) in this kind of unconventional conflict," according to Navy Rear Adm. James M. McGarrah, director of the Office of Administrative Review for Detained Enemy Combatants.

There are three possible outcomes from an administrative review board: release, typically in the detainee's home country; transfer of custody to the government of the home country; or continued detention at Guantanamo Bay.

Since the SCOTUS ruling on the Tribunals, it is as yet unclear as to whether the Bush administration will seek to modify the Tribunals to conform to a UCMJ courts-martial proceeding, or seek legislation conforming to the SCOTUS ruling. Note that the SCOTUS decision directly affects only 14 detainees at Guantanamo Bay and could ultimately affect only 40 to 80 detainees who are expected to be charged in the future.

Nothing in the decision takes issue with the detention of some 450 prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, officials emphasized. "The court was not questioning" the right to detainee these enemy combatants during hostilities, according to one official. WH Press Secretary Tony Snow issued a similar sentiment during today's White House briefing. "Nobody gets a 'get out of jail free card,'" he said of the decision.

-people are being treated in violation of the GC

Detainee treatment always has been consistent with the Geneva Conventions, according to Army Maj. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of Gitmo until March 31 of this year. Hood said the training program for military guards has been expanded to help troops understand the Middle Eastern culture and the Islamic faith. And the International Committee of the Red Cross visits Guantanamo three or four times a year to deliver messages to the detainees, ask them about their living conditions, and review U.S. detention procedures.

-the legality of this was purposely obsfucated

No. It was and is publicly described in detail at the defenselink web site.

To summarize:

Gitmo conducts two critical missions in support of the war on terror: While keeping terrorists off the battlefield, they're gathering valuable intelligence to support U.S. and coalition troops.

> Every detainee gets clothing, shelter and basic hygiene items, is able to exercise, and has access to medical and dental care.

> Detainees can send and receive mail, get books and magazines from a detainee library.

> Detainees can practice their faith freely.

> Detainees all are entitled to legal representation.

Primary source for all quotations, attributions and statements paraphrased.
 
Originally posted by oldreliable67:
This review process is not required by the Geneva Conventions or by U.S. or international law.
I disagree with this one. We ratified the following...
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, G.A. res. 2200A (XXI), 21 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 16) at 52, U.N. Doc. A/6316 (1966), 999 U.N.T.S. 171, entered into force Mar. 23, 1976.

Article 9

1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.

2. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.

3. Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgement.

4. Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.

5. Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

Article 10

1. All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.

2. (a) Accused persons shall, save in exceptional circumstances, be segregated from convicted persons and shall be subject to separate treatment appropriate to their status as unconvicted persons;


http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/b3ccpr.htm
...which makes this our law as well.

Originally posted by oldreliable67:
Gitmo conducts two critical missions in support of the war on terror: While keeping terrorists off the battlefield, they're gathering valuable intelligence to support U.S. and coalition troops.

> Every detainee gets clothing, shelter and basic hygiene items, is able to exercise, and has access to medical and dental care.

> Detainees can send and receive mail, get books and magazines from a detainee library.

> Detainees can practice their faith freely.

> Detainees all are entitled to legal representation.
And some get slammed to the floor (see attachments below) when they don't give correct answers.


To the military's credit, after an incident has been reported, steps were taking to prevent a re-occurance from happening. As an example, after the Qu'ran incident, military brass issued 22 pages of procedures on how to handle the document. And no mis-use has been reported since.
 

Attachments

  • a.jpg
    a.jpg
    61.3 KB · Views: 3
  • b.jpg
    b.jpg
    73.5 KB · Views: 2
  • c.jpg
    c.jpg
    75.1 KB · Views: 0
  • d.jpg
    d.jpg
    63 KB · Views: 0
  • e.jpg
    e.jpg
    52.8 KB · Views: 0
oldreliable67 said:
No doubt there have. Those whose innocence has been affirmed have been released.



There are two procedures in place for determination of detainee status: the Administrative Review Board and the Military Tribunal. In the case of the Tribunal - the proceedings that the SCOTUS just overturned - A three-officer panel heard arguments, and one senior officer presided. Defense and prosecuting teams had tables in the court. A court reporter, bailiffs, translators and military police were also present.

Detainees were allowed two family members in the courtroom at a time. Others permitted in the gallery included media members, diplomatic representatives from the detainees' home countries, U.S. government officials, and observers from nongovernmental human-rights organizations.

Ten media members were allowed to be in the courtroom, and a remote media center was set up to allow 90 other reporters to view the proceedings via closed-circuit television.

The Administrative Review Board (ARB) reviews the status of detainees at least once a year. In an ARB, the detainees have the chance to argue their case against continued detention before a board of three U.S. military officers. The detainees' home countries and families also have an opportunity to present information to the panel.

The ARB's purpose is to determine if each detainee is still a threat to the United States or still holds intelligence value.

This review process is not required by the Geneva Conventions or by U.S. or international law. "Our ARB process ... helps to mitigate concerns that have been raised about the indefinite detention (of enemy combatants) in this kind of unconventional conflict," according to Navy Rear Adm. James M. McGarrah, director of the Office of Administrative Review for Detained Enemy Combatants.

There are three possible outcomes from an administrative review board: release, typically in the detainee's home country; transfer of custody to the government of the home country; or continued detention at Guantanamo Bay.

Since the SCOTUS ruling on the Tribunals, it is as yet unclear as to whether the Bush administration will seek to modify the Tribunals to conform to a UCMJ courts-martial proceeding, or seek legislation conforming to the SCOTUS ruling. Note that the SCOTUS decision directly affects only 14 detainees at Guantanamo Bay and could ultimately affect only 40 to 80 detainees who are expected to be charged in the future.

Nothing in the decision takes issue with the detention of some 450 prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, officials emphasized. "The court was not questioning" the right to detainee these enemy combatants during hostilities, according to one official. WH Press Secretary Tony Snow issued a similar sentiment during today's White House briefing. "Nobody gets a 'get out of jail free card,'" he said of the decision.



Detainee treatment always has been consistent with the Geneva Conventions, according to Army Maj. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of Gitmo until March 31 of this year. Hood said the training program for military guards has been expanded to help troops understand the Middle Eastern culture and the Islamic faith. And the International Committee of the Red Cross visits Guantanamo three or four times a year to deliver messages to the detainees, ask them about their living conditions, and review U.S. detention procedures.



No. It was and is publicly described in detail at the defenselink web site.

To summarize:

Gitmo conducts two critical missions in support of the war on terror: While keeping terrorists off the battlefield, they're gathering valuable intelligence to support U.S. and coalition troops.

> Every detainee gets clothing, shelter and basic hygiene items, is able to exercise, and has access to medical and dental care.

> Detainees can send and receive mail, get books and magazines from a detainee library.

> Detainees can practice their faith freely.

> Detainees all are entitled to legal representation.

Primary source for all quotations, attributions and statements paraphrased.

You provided some interesting details. However, this could turn into a complicated discussion, so I will keep it simple and stick to one line of questions for now:

1) Were prisoners stripped naked as part of interogation?
2) Do you not see that as a violation of GC?
 
python416 said:
You provided some interesting details. However, this could turn into a complicated discussion, so I will keep it simple and stick to one line of questions for now:

1) Were prisoners stripped naked as part of interogation?
2) Do you not see that as a violation of GC?


They were looking for an iraqi *** map.


If you ever worked the prison system you would know why they strip search prisoners routinely.

Woman allegedly tried to smuggle grenade into prison inside her vagina

I guess a comment about explosive orgasms may be out of taste.
 
Originally posted by akyron:
They were looking for an iraqi *** map.
That was an awesome movie!
 
python416 said:
Well since no one has anything to say, I'll add a bit more of my thoughts.

The picture really shows how the treatment of these prisoners is not inline with the Geneva conventions. I think it also shows that there are innocent people there; which without a trail, is pretty much a crime in and of itself. It is a disgrace.

Anyone want to disagree?

How do you know it was true and accurate depiction?

And why should people fighting for an entity that is not a signator of the Conventions, would never be a signator, has no interest in treating those they capture according to the conventions preferring to behead them, recieve any such guaranty of treatment?

We are doing no different than we have for 200 years. Do you really support treating capture Al Qaeda and other terrorist as if they were uniformed soldier fighting for a government we recognize and have treaties with regarding treatment of legitimate prisoners or war?
 
Back
Top Bottom