The Right Of Self Defense In England

[Rucker61]

"As mentioned previously, the English have a remarkably low murder rate generally (about 800 a year in a population of 60 million) and always have done. The paucity of English murder is not the result of a careful control of weapons through the ages, especially guns, for as mentioned above for much of our history weapons were available. The only rational explanation for it is that there is something in the English character and society, that has made extreme personal violence rare. If any people can be trusted to own weapons the English can."

This is well stated: "The individual should have any weapon that the state is willing to use against the individual."


https://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/the-right-of-self-defence-in-england-2/

 

[Brochacholomigo]

Australia's low murder rate isn't due to their gun control, either - rather, it coincides with a trend in crime reduction that preceded the legislation. I imagine that such is the case for Canada as well.

America was established by rabble-rousers and frontiersmen, explorers and trouble makers, and that mindset has stayed with us long after we threw off the yoke of colonialism and spread to the west coast, for better or worse.

 

[Rexedgar]

Australia's low murder rate isn't due to their gun control, either - rather, it coincides with a trend in crime reduction that preceded the legislation. I imagine that such is the case for Canada as well.

America was established by rabble-rousers and frontiersmen, explorers and trouble makers, and that mindset has stayed with us long after we threw off the yoke of colonialism and spread to the west coast, for better or worse.

To what do you attribute Australia's "trend in crime reduction?" Wasn't Australia settled by released convicts of His or Her Majesty?
Maybe a coarser class of folks than "rabble rousers and frontiersmen et al." Canada connected to our north has the double influence of France and the UK. Were those that settled Canada that different from their neighbors to the south?

 

[HonestJoe]

The UK is an actual working democracy so if a significant proportion of the population wanted a relaxation of our weapon laws, they could bring that about. The simple fact is that no widespread desire exists for that scale of change.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

"As mentioned previously, the English have a remarkably low murder rate generally (about 800 a year in a population of 60 million) and always have done. The paucity of English murder is not the result of a careful control of weapons through the ages, especially guns, for as mentioned above for much of our history weapons were available. The only rational explanation for it is that there is something in the English character and society, that has made extreme personal violence rare. If any people can be trusted to own weapons the English can."

This is well stated: "The individual should have any weapon that the state is willing to use against the individual."


https://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/the-right-of-self-defence-in-england-2/

Actually England has an unimpressive homicide rate in the context of the EU as a whole, and also has some of the most dangerous cities and one of the highest violent crime rates in Western Europe. So... no. I take issue with that claim.

The English just prefer knives and acid, rather than guns, that's all. These things are less likely to outrightly kill you I suppose, but they're not less extreme in the violence it requires to use them. If anything, they are more so. If you want to burn someone's face off with gasoline, you have to actually get up close, after all.

I mean, they've got such a bad reputation in some of the sunnier holiday destinations in Europe that hotels and resort towns have started to ban them, or at least ban them from drinking. So... I'd say Europe disagrees with the conclusion that the English are a uniquely docile bunch.

I am not saying their homicide rate isn't pretty low, because it is. But... so is the rest of Western Europe's, despite the fact that they have various laws about guns for both their populace and their law enforcement. So I don't think this says anything about English character in particular, as it were.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

To what do you attribute Australia's "trend in crime reduction?" Wasn't Australia settled by released convicts of His or Her Majesty?
Maybe a coarser class of folks than "rabble rousers and frontiersmen et al." Canada connected to our north has the double influence of France and the UK. Were those that settled Canada that different from their neighbors to the south?

I can't say what made Australia so docile. Canada, however, is pretty clear to me. After the American Revolution, a large portion of the English loyalists moved to Canada, which significantly shifted their culture - they might have even joined us in rebellion at one point, if we didn't do such a piss-poor job invading their capital. Different times.

 

[Rexedgar]

I can't say what made Australia so docile. Canada, however, is pretty clear to me. After the American Revolution, a large portion of the English loyalists moved to Canada, which significantly shifted their culture - they might have even joined us in rebellion at one point, if we didn't do such a piss-poor job invading their capital. Different times.

In the other reply, the poster states that the English are more prone to stab or disfigure their victims. Especially in football (soccer), adding a good dose of alcohol releases most inhibitions. The Australians are famous for their drink as well, but they seem to be more mellow. The English have crappy weather?? The English made enemies of the Russian fans during the last World Cup in France. The Russians have thrown down the gauntlet for the upcoming W/C in Russia. It's going to be interesting!
The English seem to be angry drunks and the Aussies are happy drunks. The Canadians are still part of or align with the UK. They seem to have cast off the angry drunk part of their English forebears.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

In the other reply, the poster states that the English are more prone to stab or disfigure their victims. Especially in football (soccer), adding a good dose of alcohol releases most inhibitions. The Australians are famous for their drink as well, but they seem to be more mellow. The English have crappy weather?? The English made enemies of the Russian fans during the last World Cup in France. The Russians have thrown down the gauntlet for the upcoming W/C in Russia. It's going to be interesting!
The English seem to be angry drunks and the Aussies are happy drunks. The Canadians are still part of or align with the UK. They seem to have cast off the angry drunk part of their English forebears.

The English are violent by the standards of Western Europe, but they still don't have anything on their red-headed stepchildren in the colonies.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

The English are violent by the standards of Western Europe, but they still don't have anything on their red-headed stepchildren in the colonies.

Honestly, it's violent by any standards. It's just that where as in America, violence tends to be sporadic, but rather deadly, violence here is lower level, but constant. That's why if you look at all violent crime, not just homicide, the UK fares pretty poorly. In fact, it's worse than the US.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Any serious comparison is impossible due to the varying criteria and standards of data collection. Let's say if you are a young male, you are likely to be involved in at least one drunken fight growing up in England, but you're also more likely to live through your teens than in the USA.
The rise of acid attacks is an interesting one. It dates very closely to the government's removal of restriction on sales.

 

[soylentgreen]

To what do you attribute Australia's "trend in crime reduction?" Wasn't Australia settled by released convicts of His or Her Majesty?
Maybe a coarser class of folks than "rabble rousers and frontiersmen et al." Canada connected to our north has the double influence of France and the UK. Were those that settled Canada that different from their neighbors to the south?

No, not quite true. Initially it was used as a convict settlement. but the biggest wave of immigrants came after the world wars and it is those europeans that now make up most of the countries population.
Interestingly enough thirty odd years ago not one australian would have said that their ancestory came from convicts, now its the hight of fashion to be able to claim such.

The difference and the reason why the lower kill rsatio is in that word american loathe an fail to comprehend, socialism. England, australia, cananda, america and new zealand all came into existence due to massive immigration. Only in america is socialist ideas dismissed. Only in america is their this weird and nonesensical belief in the right of the individual.

Your crime rate is because of your social conditions. I as nothing to do with guns.

 

[OlNate]

Just gotta say, as a Canadian I always find it very interesting to be analyzed by others. I would point out that Canada's ties to England and France are more nostalgic at this point...if any nations influence us at this point, it's the slow creeping in of the alt-right influence from America, especially in our central provinces (Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba).

Given that you are describing all of these other nations as being "docile", I would put forward the notion that perhaps we are not "docile", but rather America is exceptionally violent - uniquely violent amongst 1st world countries.

As for what kind of drunks we are, well...hehe...c'mon up, and we'll show you a good time, I'll just leave it at that....

 

[Rexedgar]

No, not quite true. Initially it was used as a convict settlement. but the biggest wave of immigrants came after the world wars and it is those europeans that now make up most of the countries population.
Interestingly enough thirty odd years ago not one australian would have said that their ancestory came from convicts, now its the hight of fashion to be able to claim such.

The difference and the reason why the lower kill rsatio is in that word american loathe an fail to comprehend, socialism. England, australia, cananda, america and new zealand all came into existence due to massive immigration. Only in america is socialist ideas dismissed. Only in america is their this weird and nonesensical belief in the right of the individual.

Your crime rate is because of your social conditions. I as nothing to do with guns.

I have an acquaintance from Germany and during one of our talks, he brought up the fact that from his point of view, American are too much about the right of the individual and not in tune enough with the rights of the group. First thing an American will say is "I know my rights." Probably clueless re the Constitution. We are all about money/wealth. I liken our system to a game of musical chairs, and everyone thinks they have a chair picked out when the music stops.

 

[jaeger19]

Any serious comparison is impossible due to the varying criteria and standards of data collection. Let's say if you are a young male, you are likely to be involved in at least one drunken fight growing up in England, but you're also more likely to live through your teens than in the USA.
The rise of acid attacks is an interesting one. It dates very closely to the government's removal of restriction on sales.

Actual that's not true.. there has been serious attempts to compare crime rates using apples to apples comparisons and the USA has less violent crime than the UK.

 

[soylentgreen]

I have an acquaintance from Germany and during one of our talks, he brought up the fact that from his point of view, American are too much about the right of the individual and not in tune enough with the rights of the group. First thing an American will say is "I know my rights." Probably clueless re the Constitution. We are all about money/wealth. I liken our system to a game of musical chairs, and everyone thinks they have a chair picked out when the music stops.

This is why the argument about guns is so pointless. Americans think only in terms of self defence and give not one thought to how to change the social conditions that bring the crime they think they need a gun to defend themselves with.

 

[jaeger19]

Just gotta say, as a Canadian I always find it very interesting to be analyzed by others. I would point out that Canada's ties to England and France are more nostalgic at this point...if any nations influence us at this point, it's the slow creeping in of the alt-right influence from America, especially in our central provinces (Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba).

Given that you are describing all of these other nations as being "docile", I would put forward the notion that perhaps we are not "docile", but rather America is exceptionally violent - uniquely violent amongst 1st world countries.

As for what kind of drunks we are, well...hehe...c'mon up, and we'll show you a good time, I'll just leave it at that....

Well Join the club.. it gets pretty amusing to hear America being analyzed by others as well.

 

[jaeger19]

This is why the argument about guns is so pointless. Americans think only in terms of self defence and give not one thought to how to change the social conditions that bring the crime they think they need a gun to defend themselves with.

And that is patently false.

 

[soylentgreen]

And that is patently false.

No, it is patenly true. Go to any thread about guns and it will telling you that the individual has a right to a gun for self defence. Go to any thread on socialism and it will tell you that americans are clueless about socialism and prefer to act as individuals rather than a group.

 

[Rucker61]

No, it is patenly true. Go to any thread about guns and it will telling you that the individual has a right to a gun for self defence. Go to any thread on socialism and it will tell you that americans are clueless about socialism and prefer to act as individuals rather than a group.

"prefer to act as individuals rather than a group" is very different form "give not one thought to how to change the social conditions that bring the crime they think they need a gun to defend themselves with".

Americans aren't clueless about socialism. Here's an excerpt from the platform of the Democratic Party:

Raise Incomes and Restore Economic Security for the Middle Class
Fight for Economic Fairness and Against Inequality
Bring Americans Together and Remove Barriers to Opportunities
Combat Climate Change, Build a Clean Energy Economy, and Secure Environmental Justice
Making Debt-Free College a Reality
Securing Universal Health Care

"Democrats believe that cooperation is better than conflict, unity is better than division,
empowerment is better than resentment, and bridges are better than walls.
It’s a simple but powerful idea: we are stronger together.
Democrats believe we are stronger when we have an economy that works for everyone—an
economy that grows incomes for working people, creates good-paying jobs, and puts a middleclass
life within reach for more Americans. Democrats believe we can spur more sustainable
economic growth, which will create good-paying jobs and raise wages. And we can have more
economic fairness, so the rewards are shared broadly, not just with those at the top. We need an
economy that prioritizes long-term investment over short-term profit-seeking, rewards the
common interest over self-interest, and promotes innovation and entrepreneurship"


http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf

 

[OlNate]

Well Join the club.. it gets pretty amusing to hear America being analyzed by others as well.

I imagine it does...

 

[Rucker61]

No, it is patenly true. Go to any thread about guns and it will telling you that the individual has a right to a gun for self defence. Go to any thread on socialism and it will tell you that americans are clueless about socialism and prefer to act as individuals rather than a group.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...re-suddenly-millions-of-socialists-in-america

"In a poll on the eve of the Iowa caucuses, more than 40% of likely Democratic caucus attendees said they were socialists. In a Boston Globe poll on the eve of the New Hampshire primary, 31% of New Hampshire Democratic voters called themselves socialists; among voters under 35, just over half did. And in late February, a Bloomberg poll of likely voters in the Democratic primary in South Carolina – South Carolina! – showed that 39% described themselves as socialists."

 

[Manc Skipper]

Actual that's not true.. there has been serious attempts to compare crime rates using apples to apples comparisons and the USA has less violent crime than the UK.

Actually that's nonsense.

 

[BretJ]

Actually that's nonsense.

How so?

 

[Visbek]

Actually England has an unimpressive homicide rate in the context of the EU as a whole...

UK homicide rate in 2014 = 0.94 per 100,000
France = 1.58
Spain = 0.66
Italy = 0.78
Belgium 1.95
Germany = 0.85
Europe (not EU) = 3.0 per 100,000
United States = 4.88

Seems decent to me.

[It] also has some of the most dangerous cities and one of the highest violent crime rates in Western Europe.

If you're talking about London, I think you're letting the press get to you. It's around 12.4, which is kinda weak by American standards. For large US cities, the homicide rate is around 59 per 100,000.

I.e. all those guns? Not making St Louis any safer.

The English just prefer knives and acid, rather than guns, that's all. These things are less likely to outrightly kill you I suppose...

Yes, there's a reason why bringing a knife to a gunfight is a bad idea

I am not saying their homicide rate isn't pretty low, because it is. But... so is the rest of Western Europe's, despite the fact that they have various laws about guns for both their populace and their law enforcement. So I don't think this says anything about English character in particular, as it were.

I'm not sure about national character, but the reality is that the homicide rate in general in most industrialized nations is quite low. The rates of violence were probably five to ten times worse in Europe during the Medieval Ages, and even worse in some pre-historic / band-level societies. In some prehistoric societies, archaeological evidence suggests that up to half of all deaths were due to violence, a number inconceivable today.

Steven Pinker attributes it to the "civilizing effect" of modern living. Rule of law, better police, increased valuation of individual life, lower birth rates etc all add up.

 

[flogger]

Or maybe we don't think like Americans and believe what Hollywood pedals is real

We really don't want to shoot each other and don't believe for a moment it would be somehow heroic if we ever did so.

I suppose to most Americans we are just funny like that